Holyfield VS Ali

[BoxBuzz]

So...the Heart thing and the Hep thing weren't just excuses? uh er I mean "Reasons"? They were both bona-fide? Or no? I always suspected it was just the thing fighters say when they lose.

Still that Toney fight seems oddest regardless of the "reason".

[Darling]

Yes, eating KFC is much more damaging to your brain than 32 violent rounds of getting pounded in your head. That's funnier every time you say it.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

So...the Heart thing and the Hep thing weren't just excuses? uh er I mean "Reasons"? They were both bona-fide? Or no? I always suspected it was just the thing fighters say when they lose.

Still that Toney fight seems oddest regardless of the "reason".

I didn't mention anything to do with his heart. The hepatitis was legit. Holyfield didn't even say it after he lost. It came out from other members of his camp. Ray Charles could see he was affected in the fight. None of that has much to do with ali stopping him, he couldn't.

As for the Toney fight, nothing could mean less to this thread than that. Holmes stopped Ali too, just as relevant.

[BoxBuzz]

So...the Heart thing and the Hep thing weren't just excuses? uh er I mean "Reasons"? They were both bona-fide? Or no? I always suspected it was just the thing fighters say when they lose.

Still that Toney fight seems oddest regardless of the "reason".

I didn't mention anything to do with his heart. The hepatitis was legit. Holyfield didn't even say it after he lost. It came out from other members of his camp. Ray Charles could see he was affected in the fight. None of that has much to do with ali stopping him, he couldn't.

As for the Toney fight, nothing could mean less to this thread than that. Holmes stopped Ali too, just as relevant.

They can't be compared if what you are saying is true. Holmes beat Ali once Ali was really washed up. But it sounds like maybe Holyfield just "had a bad day at work" if he honestly had hep at that time. From this I would guess that you suspect Holyfield would have been able to turn the tables on Toney six months later. Would you agree with that?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

So...the Heart thing and the Hep thing weren't just excuses? uh er I mean "Reasons"? They were both bona-fide? Or no? I always suspected it was just the thing fighters say when they lose.

Still that Toney fight seems oddest regardless of the "reason".

I didn't mention anything to do with his heart. The hepatitis was legit. Holyfield didn't even say it after he lost. It came out from other members of his camp. Ray Charles could see he was affected in the fight. None of that has much to do with ali stopping him, he couldn't.

As for the Toney fight, nothing could mean less to this thread than that. Holmes stopped Ali too, just as relevant.

They can't be compared if what you are saying is true. Holmes beat Ali once Ali was really washed up. But it sounds like maybe Holyfield just "had a bad day at work" if he honestly had hep at that time. From this I would guess that you suspect Holyfield would have been able to turn the tables on Toney six months later. Would you agree with that?

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here? I hope you're not having a stroke as you type. But this nonsense isn't even worth responding to and you know it. The worst part is, it isn't even funny.

[BoxBuzz]

Hey I eat strokes for Breakfast and Heart Attacks for Lunch....hope that amuses ya a bit.

I was serious though, I probably read this stuff too fast, I thought you were saying Holy had hep when he faced Toney, and just wondered if Toney and Holy faced off six months later who you think would win.

However a closer reading may reveal that he had Hep during the Bowe fight vs the Toney fight...I'm just not certain.

But either way the questions stands out of curiosity. Would a six month return match of Toney vs Holy turned out any different? in your opinion....

oh....and which fight did Bowe have Hep again? I'll read carefully this time.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't know how to say it any clearer than he had it for the Bowe fight. If you need it explained more than that, I guess I would say it's the one he was stopped in. Hope that helps you out.

A rematch with toney would depend on who had the better PED's at the time. But again, that's as significant as Holmes/Ali. You must really be bored.

[BoxBuzz]

Not bored, Just gettin' your take on things. Sometimes the keys don't convey well, this is an example of that I suppose........ I'm having a hard time seeing Toney in the role of Holmes in this comparison. And wondered if you thought Toney could pull it off twice....certainly Holmes could.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Not bored, Just gettin' your take on things. Sometimes the keys don't convey well, this is an example of that I suppose........ I'm having a hard time seeing Toney in the role of Holmes in this comparison. And wondered if you thought Toney could pull it off twice....certainly Holmes could.

It's an example of something, alright.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It sure is.

[BoxBuzz]

Stroke or Heart Attack?

[BoxBuzz]

Ok at the end of the convolution which I proudly helped to create....Holmes vs Ali = Toney Vs Holyfield.

In your humble opinion.


(emphasis on humble in this case)

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Your posts in here have been painful to read. I hope you get well soon.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You gotta wonder sometimes how this mix of people within BOTP would get along in real life :)

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I wouldn't be in nearly as many arguments as my sense of humor translates less abrasively in person. But i have to admit I would walk away from this buffoonery from Buzz inside of a minute.

I would be close to fisticuffs if I stated Holyfield had hepatitis in a Bowe fight and somebody went on and on to me about James Toney.

[Goodnight, Irene]

[BoxBuzz]

No prob Saad....it's all forgotten. ...(you know how it is....Dementia and all.)

[Ambling Alp]

I started a thread on who would give Ali the most problems and possibly defeat him.

Holyfied was on my list. I wouldn't bet on him though.

I remember that thread. I wouldn't pick anyone against Ali, but Holyfield would matchup better than almost anyone else.
When you are going someone better than you, you need to be unpredictable. Holyfield was that. He could mix up boxing and slugging. He also had good handspeed and was one of the most accurrate punchers ever. He would be more effective offensively than anyone else would.

The big problem for Holyfield was defense. He was not a good defensive fighter and Ali of course had great hand speed and was even more accurrate than Holyfield. Ali would pick him apart with jabs and those lightning combinations. It would be competitive for a while, but gradually Ali takes over. It's a matter if it would go the distance or a late round stoppage. It would be an entertaining fight.

Ali wouldn't stop Holyfield with a sledgehammer. You are not being serious with that penultimate sentence, surely?

With an accumilation of blows he certainly may have. Holyfield did not have a good defense and Ali was an accurrate puncher who threw a lot of punches. Holyfield would be getting hit an awful lot.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ho-hum. Well, being honest, I cannot see it, Alp. Not in a million fights. Ali hit Chuvalo how many times? He hit Terrell how many times? It took him twelve stanzas to stop Mildenberger.

I'm not sure what you're exactly getting at with the stoppage. Are you saying Ali would cut Holyfield so badly it would endanger the fight? That Ali would daze & wobble Holyfield to the point where he couldn't physically continue? I just do not see how anyone as well-versed as yourself could really believe Ali comes within a hundred million miles of stopping Holyfield. What vulnerabilities does Holyfield have a puncher as light & as disinterested in the kill as Ali could capitalise on to the point of stopping him?

Thinking about it, I just cannot imagine a less likely scenario than Ali stopping Holyfield. To me, it is just that uterly unfeasible. Bowe couldn't do it to a prime Holyfield on his best night...Lewis couldn't do it at the height of his powers, with two efforts, against a washed-up Holyfield...Tyson also failed through two attempts...but of all people, Ali somehow does it?

[BoxBuzz]

I could've sworn I saw Bowe do it. But that was on his "hep" night I guess. And Toney was of course playing Holmes to Holy's Ali. (Learned that right here! but I got all confused along the way and earned the scorn of an esteemed contributor along the way)

I think it's possible. Not probable. Holyfield would have to deal with a lot of "educated incoming". Could Ali KO him? Yep! Would he? I wouldn't bet on it.

Then again we are talking about a guy who stopped Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Bonavena, Williams, Moore, etc. So I'm thinkin' only the folks who can claim knowledge of all that the Akashic record holds can know for sure.

[Darling]

I could've sworn I saw Bowe do it. But that was on his "hep" night I guess. And Toney was of course playing Holmes to Holy's Ali. (Learned that right here! but I got all confused along the way and earned the scorn of an esteemed contributor along the way)

I think it's possible. Not probable. Holyfield would have to deal with a lot of "educated incoming". Could Ali KO him? Yep! Would he? I wouldn't bet on it.

Then again we are talking about a guy who stopped Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Bonavena, Williams, Moore, etc. So I'm thinkin' only the folks who can claim knowledge of all that the Akashic record holds can know for sure.

Eddie Futch stopped Joe Frazier, not Muhammad Ali.

Crooked Eddie Futch was working for the Ali Industry. It's a well know fact.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I could've sworn I saw Bowe do it. But that was on his "hep" night I guess. And Toney was of course playing Holmes to Holy's Ali. (Learned that right here! but I got all confused along the way and earned the scorn of an esteemed contributor along the way)

I think it's possible. Not probable. Holyfield would have to deal with a lot of "educated incoming". Could Ali KO him? Yep! Would he? I wouldn't bet on it.

Then again we are talking about a guy who stopped Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Bonavena, Williams, Moore, etc. So I'm thinkin' only the folks who can claim knowledge of all that the Akashic record holds can know for sure.

I just learned something new, myself.

Holyfield was in his prime when he fought Bowe the third time, & Hepatitis is just an excuse, not a major contributor to a fighter's performance failing

[BoxBuzz]

Ok you got me on that one.......so.....Holy's corner man would stop the fight.

[Ezzard]

I started a thread on who would give Ali the most problems and possibly defeat him.

Holyfied was on my list. I wouldn't bet on him though.

I remember that thread. I wouldn't pick anyone against Ali, but Holyfield would matchup better than almost anyone else.
When you are going someone better than you, you need to be unpredictable. Holyfield was that. He could mix up boxing and slugging. He also had good handspeed and was one of the most accurrate punchers ever. He would be more effective offensively than anyone else would.

The big problem for Holyfield was defense. He was not a good defensive fighter and Ali of course had great hand speed and was even more accurrate than Holyfield. Ali would pick him apart with jabs and those lightning combinations. It would be competitive for a while, but gradually Ali takes over. It's a matter if it would go the distance or a late round stoppage. It would be an entertaining fight.

It's more like if Ali had 100 fights against each of the top 30 greats which guys would win the most off him.

I think Holyfield would have a great chance of being in the top 5.

[hurlock]

holyfield with or without ped's ali still id say.

take braxton a poorman's frazier & do the math 8)