Holyfield VS Ali

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ho-hum. Well, being honest, I cannot see it, Alp. Not in a million fights. Ali hit Chuvalo how many times? He hit Terrell how many times? It took him twelve stanzas to stop Mildenberger.

I'm not sure what you're exactly getting at with the stoppage. Are you saying Ali would cut Holyfield so badly it would endanger the fight? That Ali would daze & wobble Holyfield to the point where he couldn't physically continue? I just do not see how anyone as well-versed as yourself could really believe Ali comes within a hundred million miles of stopping Holyfield. What vulnerabilities does Holyfield have a puncher as light & as disinterested in the kill as Ali could capitalise on to the point of stopping him?

Thinking about it, I just cannot imagine a less likely scenario than Ali stopping Holyfield. To me, it is just that uterly unfeasible. Bowe couldn't do it to a prime Holyfield on his best night...Lewis couldn't do it at the height of his powers, with two efforts, against a washed-up Holyfield...Tyson also failed through two attempts...but of all people, Ali somehow does it?

No chance in hell. In fact, if ali thought about trying to KO Evander it would be an even type of fight. he wins this off of his jab and movement.

[Ambling Alp]

Ho-hum. Well, being honest, I cannot see it, Alp. Not in a million fights. Ali hit Chuvalo how many times? He hit Terrell how many times? It took him twelve stanzas to stop Mildenberger.

I'm not sure what you're exactly getting at with the stoppage. Are you saying Ali would cut Holyfield so badly it would endanger the fight? That Ali would daze & wobble Holyfield to the point where he couldn't physically continue? I just do not see how anyone as well-versed as yourself could really believe Ali comes within a hundred million miles of stopping Holyfield. What vulnerabilities does Holyfield have a puncher as light & as disinterested in the kill as Ali could capitalise on to the point of stopping him?

Thinking about it, I just cannot imagine a less likely scenario than Ali stopping Holyfield. To me, it is just that uterly unfeasible. Bowe couldn't do it to a prime Holyfield on his best night...Lewis couldn't do it at the height of his powers, with two efforts, against a washed-up Holyfield...Tyson also failed through two attempts...but of all people, Ali somehow does it?

No Ali didn't stop everyone he fought, no one else has either. I am just saying that there is a serious possiblity. Ali did stop everyone else that he fought during his prime. He was able to hurt and stop Liston who had a very good chin. Just because he didn't stop Chuvalo (who had one of greatest chins of all time) and Terrell does not mean it's unfeasible that he would stop Holyfield.

Even in the 1970s he stopped Bonavena, Foreman, and Frazier. All fought guys who hit harder than Ali. All very hard guys to stop. He did it mostly wearing them down by a sheer accumilation of clean punches.

Holyfield would be getting hit much more than in any fight of his career. He might go the distance, but there is also a serious chance that Ali wears him down, stops him in the late rounds with some combinations as he did with other guys who were very hard to stop.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ho-hum. Well, being honest, I cannot see it, Alp. Not in a million fights. Ali hit Chuvalo how many times? He hit Terrell how many times? It took him twelve stanzas to stop Mildenberger.

I'm not sure what you're exactly getting at with the stoppage. Are you saying Ali would cut Holyfield so badly it would endanger the fight? That Ali would daze & wobble Holyfield to the point where he couldn't physically continue? I just do not see how anyone as well-versed as yourself could really believe Ali comes within a hundred million miles of stopping Holyfield. What vulnerabilities does Holyfield have a puncher as light & as disinterested in the kill as Ali could capitalise on to the point of stopping him?

Thinking about it, I just cannot imagine a less likely scenario than Ali stopping Holyfield. To me, it is just that uterly unfeasible. Bowe couldn't do it to a prime Holyfield on his best night...Lewis couldn't do it at the height of his powers, with two efforts, against a washed-up Holyfield...Tyson also failed through two attempts...but of all people, Ali somehow does it?

No Ali didn't stop everyone he fought, no one else has either. I am just saying that there is a serious possiblity. Ali did stop everyone else that he fought during his prime. He was able to hurt and stop Liston who had a very good chin. Just because he didn't stop Chuvalo (who had one of greatest chins of all time) and Terrell does not mean it's unfeasible that he would stop Holyfield.

Even in the 1970s he stopped Bonavena, Foreman, and Frazier. All fought guys who hit harder than Ali. All very hard guys to stop. He did it mostly wearing them down by a sheer accumilation of clean punches.

Holyfield would be getting hit much more than in any fight of his career. He might go the distance, but there is also a serious chance that Ali wears him down, stops him in the late rounds with some combinations as he did with other guys who were very hard to stop.

I know what you're just saying, I'm just saying I disagree as strenuously as possible. It won't be that type of gruelling, close-quarters warzone manner of fight (which was the only type of fight Frazier could initiate, & which led to his stoppage defeat in 75), or a fight where one guy gasses so severely, he is there for the taking (Foreman). It will be tactical, with flashes of fire, & Holyfield doesn't get stopped in that manner of fight if the opponent is Ali --- not in a million fights over a million years. I'd even take Holyfield to out-point Ali (hardly likely, especially if the bout is over fifteen rounds) before I'd consider Ali stopping Holyfield.

[Ambling Alp]

No I don't think it would be like Ali's fights vs Foreman or the Frazier fights. Holyfield was completely different than Foreman and different in many ways compared to Frazier. Ali was a different fighter in his prime than he was against them.

However, I don't think it would be a cat and mouse affair either. Holyfield would be getting hit much more than he ever was in any fight; Ali for that matter would get hit more than usual.

Ali would bounce around much of time, stopping and hitting Holyfield with combinations. Given his handspeed and accurracy vs Holyfield mediocre defense, Ali would be hitting Holyfield a very high % of the time; well over 50% of the time. The early and mid rounds would be competitive.

Holyfield would also spend a lot of energy chasing Ali. Round after after round of chasing and getting hit cleanly with combinations takes a toll. From about the 10th round on Holyfield would be losing steam. I should mention that I was thinking of this as a 15 round fight, in which the chances of a stoppage would be greater. Maybe Holyfield survives, maybe he doesn't. However, I think there is a possiblity that he doesn't.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Holyfield went 15 insanely intense rds after a handful of fights. You're selling his stamina way short. Next you will tell me that Ali would wear him down to the body.

[Ambling Alp]

I can't speak for others, but I don't think it would be an easy fight for Ali. however, if you look at Ali's fights form Liston to Folley, you will see a fighter who had phenomenal reflexes, speed and acurracy, and was very hard to hit.

Holyfield would give him more trouble than just about anyone else, but would lose. Holyfield would get to Ali more often than anyone else, but not enough. Holyfield on the other hand, would be very easy for Ali to hit. Holyfield is going to get outlanded by more than a 2-1 ratio. It would be hard to see him winning 6 out of 15 rounds, much less winning. He is not going to win 1 fight in a trilogy against this version of Ali.

And this is Holyfield at this best. He stamina was good sometimes, but in many fights he seemed to lose his stamina at times, though he usually got a second wind. Chasing Ali and getting hit more than he ever has is going to tax his stamina more than in any other fight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ali would land about 500 jabs. That isn't going to sap his strength more than Qawi pounding him to the body or Bowe leaning on him with his huge body. It's hard to imagine Evander tiring at all against Muhammad. Not as impossible as him getting stopped, but still unlikely in the kind of fight it would be. If you think they are going to exchange furiously for 15 rds, Ali would be tired too.

[Ambling Alp]

Holyfield did go 15 rounds once in his career. However there were fights when he seemed to struggle with stamina, though he would often get a second wind. He certainly looked tired at times against Qawi and Bowe, as almost anyone would. He certainly didn't have the worst stamina, but he certainly did not have the best either.

It would not be a fight with the two going toe to toe for 15 rounds, though that would probably happen occasionally. It would mostly be Ali circling Holyfield, landing jabs, occasionally stopping to connect with a few combinations each round. A prime Ali did that rountinely without being too tired.

He would also be losing energy chasing Ali. He would also be losing energy missing punches, which takes more out of a fighter than connecting. He would be missing many more punches against Ali than he did against Qawi and Bowe.

Holyfield is going to spend more energy chasing an opponent than he ever has. He is going to get hit more than he ever as. He is going to use up more energy missing more punches than he ever has.

Put all of these things together and he would have less left in the later rounds than in the than he did against Qawi and Bowe. As I have said before, maybe he survives, maybe he doesn't. If it scheduled for 12, he has a better chance of making it. He certainly is not going to win too many late rounds.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He would have plenty left and Ali wouldn't stop him if it was scheduled for 50 rounds. Getting outboxed would be Evander's issue. "Surviving" isn't anywhere near what would occur in the ring. But, you and Ali = the same old, same old. No point in it and it's on me for bothering with you when it comes to your favorite fighters. Not a big deal, I don't think Evander would win either.

[Idisagree]

I don't see Ali stopping Holyfield at all. I could see Ali winning on points, but not by KO and even then I see this as a close fight. I think in the ring Holyfield was smarter than Foreman and would not waste punches like Foreman did. Also, people often under-rate Holyfield's inside fighting skills. Not to mention his determination. I'll make Ali the favorite but I would not be surprise if Holyfield pulls the upset here.

[yancey]

I could've sworn I saw Bowe do it. But that was on his "hep" night I guess. And Toney was of course playing Holmes to Holy's Ali. (Learned that right here! but I got all confused along the way and earned the scorn of an esteemed contributor along the way)

I think it's possible. Not probable. Holyfield would have to deal with a lot of "educated incoming". Could Ali KO him? Yep! Would he? I wouldn't bet on it.

Then again we are talking about a guy who stopped Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Bonavena, Williams, Moore, etc. So I'm thinkin' only the folks who can claim knowledge of all that the Akashic record holds can know for sure.

Eddie Futch stopped Joe Frazier, not Muhammad Ali.

You got that right. Clancy called Futch's move the worst mistake in boxing he has ever seen.

Ignore Darling. He is a Ali Cabana Boy par excellence.

[BoxBuzz]

Yancey, I rephrased, and ended up saying that maybe Holyfield's corner man would take care of it. I knew you would be incensed if I didn't straighten that out.

[Klee Gluckman]

Styles make fights Bowe with his size is better suited to fighting Holyfield than Ali. I think Tyson and Lewis may have Knocked out Bowe, and yet I think that Holyfield would beat Tyson and Lewis prime for prime. Lewis and Tyson never seriously hurt Holyfield in 38 rounds of boxing. Ali is a great fighter but Holyfield can come in here light and fast like he did against Douglas. Holyfield is as gooder chance to beat Ali, I think that Holyfield would be Ali's Norton who Ali never convincingly beat. Yeah I can definately see Evander beating Ali. Tyson and Lewis on the other hand probably not.

[Ambling Alp]

Ali fought Norton when he was not at his best.
Holyfield was a different opponent than Norton. Holyfield was much easier to hit.

Not an easy fight, but a prime Ali is not going to lose to a prime Holyfield.

[dempseyfire]

I think this would be a surprisingly lackluster bout. Holyfield would have moments here and there but he'd mostly be swinging at air and Ali would be landing straight punches almost at will. Over 15 Holyfield maybe wins 4-5 rounds at most, with Evander's face looking like the Elephant Man at the end. One of Holyfield's biggest negatives was that he never really learned how to slip the jab, and that's a BIG negative here.

[BoxBuzz]

I think this would be a surprisingly lackluster bout. Holyfield would have moments here and there but he'd mostly be swinging at air and Ali would be landing straight punches almost at will. Over 15 Holyfield maybe wins 4-5 rounds at most, with Evander's face looking like the Elephant Man at the end. One of Holyfield's biggest negatives was that he never really learned how to slip the jab, and that's a BIG negative here.

Sensible assessment, one that deserves consideration. This is exactly why reasonable money would be placed on one fighter and not the other.....And those "moments" of high drama would certainly manifest. However I'm thinking they would be few and far between, as Muhammad carved out an eventual assured win.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think this would be a surprisingly lackluster bout. Holyfield would have moments here and there but he'd mostly be swinging at air and Ali would be landing straight punches almost at will. Over 15 Holyfield maybe wins 4-5 rounds at most, with Evander's face looking like the Elephant Man at the end. One of Holyfield's biggest negatives was that he never really learned how to slip the jab, and that's a BIG negative here.

Holyfield had a great left hook, in both delivery & timing. You see it racking up any points for him here, given it's Ali's bogey-punch, Demps?

[BoxBuzz]

I think this would be a surprisingly lackluster bout. Holyfield would have moments here and there but he'd mostly be swinging at air and Ali would be landing straight punches almost at will. Over 15 Holyfield maybe wins 4-5 rounds at most, with Evander's face looking like the Elephant Man at the end. One of Holyfield's biggest negatives was that he never really learned how to slip the jab, and that's a BIG negative here.

Holyfield had a great left hook, in both delivery & timing. You see it racking up any points for him here, given it's Ali's bogey-punch, Demps?

G.I. you really want to go on record drawing some sort of comparison between Holyfield and Frazier on that subject?

Seems you've got "good" mixed up with "state of the art". IMHO.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Evander's hook was every bit as good as Frazier's. Just not quite as powerful. It was shorter and more accurate. One of the greatest left hooks in history.

[BoxBuzz]

So Frazier and Holyfields Left Hooks were in the same class in your opinion?

Fair enough. I don't see them as being in the same league.

Just my opinion.

[gilgamesh]

Holyfield's best punch was definitely his hook in my opinion. I wouldn't say his hook is as good as Frazier, but it's ok as I'd say there's no doubt Holyfield had the better right of the two. So overall Frazier has the better hook, Holyfield has the more complete arsenal.

[dempseyfire]

Holyfield had a good left hook but it was far from a Dempsey or Frazier knockout punch. I think Saad's comment regarding Evander's hook is laughable.

And Ali's vulnerability to the left hook has been massively over-stated to begin with. Frazier landed the left hook on Ali after rounds of exhuding endless pressure on Ali with his bob and weave style, not boxing him (which is what Holyfield would be doing). Quarry's left hook was as crisp and compact as Evander's (and a harder punch to boot) and he couldn't land it at all vs Ali.

[yancey]

Evander's hook was every bit as good as Frazier's. Just not quite as powerful. It was shorter and more accurate. One of the greatest left hooks in history.

oh, dear.

[yancey]

Holyfield had a good left hook but it was far from a Dempsey or Frazier knockout punch. I think Saad's comment regarding Evander's hook is laughable.

And Ali's vulnerability to the left hook has been massively over-stated to begin with. Frazier landed the left hook on Ali after rounds of exhuding endless pressure on Ali with his bob and weave style, not boxing him (which is what Holyfield would be doing). Quarry's left hook was as crisp and compact as Evander's (and a harder punch to boot) and he couldn't land it at all vs Ali.

Good analysis.

[BoxBuzz]

This is a distinct turn toward sensibility. IMHO.