Holyfield VS Ali

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Ali fought Norton when he was not at his best.
Holyfield was a different opponent than Norton. Holyfield was much easier to hit.

Not an easy fight, but a prime Ali is not going to lose to a prime Holyfield.

A lot of people do seem to forget that Ali was nowhere near his best the three times he fought Norton.

For the third fight, he probably was suffering some neurological deficits, although none of us knew it at the time.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

So Frazier and Holyfields Left Hooks were in the same class in your opinion?

Fair enough. I don't see them as being in the same league.

Just my opinion.

No doubt about it, I would call it more of a fact.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Holyfield had a good left hook but it was far from a Dempsey or Frazier knockout punch. I think Saad's comment regarding Evander's hook is laughable.

And Ali's vulnerability to the left hook has been massively over-stated to begin with. Frazier landed the left hook on Ali after rounds of exhuding endless pressure on Ali with his bob and weave style, not boxing him (which is what Holyfield would be doing). Quarry's left hook was as crisp and compact as Evander's (and a harder punch to boot) and he couldn't land it at all vs Ali.

I never said it would make that big of an impact on the fight. He could never pressure like Joe did.

You love you some Quarry. Hard to imagine a thread passing without you bringing him up. He did nothing better or equal to Evander. Not a thing.

Edit: Actually, Jerry had excellent stamina.

[BoxBuzz]

So Frazier and Holyfields Left Hooks were in the same class in your opinion?

Fair enough. I don't see them as being in the same league.

Just my opinion.

No doubt about it, I would call it more of a fact.

G.I. had claimed oversight over the truth some time ago, and now with you assertively in charge of the facts, I'd say we've now got the corner on the market regarding the ultimate reference on all things pugilistic. I hope others will continue to visit and opine on occasion, just to throw out a "diverse viewpoint" now and again. Just to keep it all interesting.

[yancey]

So Frazier and Holyfields Left Hooks were in the same class in your opinion?

Fair enough. I don't see them as being in the same league.

Just my opinion.

No doubt about it, I would call it more of a fact.

G.I. had claimed oversight over the truth some time ago, and now with you assertively in charge of the facts, I'd say we've now got the corner on the market regarding the ultimate reference on all things pugilistic. I hope others will continue to visit and opine on occasion, just to throw out a "diverse viewpoint" now and again. Just to keep it all interesting.

[dempseyfire]

Holyfield had a good left hook but it was far from a Dempsey or Frazier knockout punch. I think Saad's comment regarding Evander's hook is laughable.

And Ali's vulnerability to the left hook has been massively over-stated to begin with. Frazier landed the left hook on Ali after rounds of exhuding endless pressure on Ali with his bob and weave style, not boxing him (which is what Holyfield would be doing). Quarry's left hook was as crisp and compact as Evander's (and a harder punch to boot) and he couldn't land it at all vs Ali.

I never said it would make that big of an impact on the fight. He could never pressure like Joe did.

You love you some Quarry. Hard to imagine a thread passing without you bringing him up. He did nothing better or equal to Evander. Not a thing.

Edit: Actually, Jerry had excellent stamina.

I brought up Quarry b/c he and Evander were style-wise very similar fighters, and both had excellent left hooks. And Quarry dropped and/or knocked out more fighers with his left hook than Holyfield did (those who were either knocked down or out including Chuvalo, Patterson, Alongi, Spencer, Mathis, Foster, Shavers, Bodell, and staggering Lyle several times)

Beyond dropping Bowe, Tyson (more a balance KD), and Mercer, I can't think of any notable left hooks Holyfield ever threw. And zero notable knockouts resulting from that punch.

[BoxBuzz]

Holyfield had a good left hook but it was far from a Dempsey or Frazier knockout punch. I think Saad's comment regarding Evander's hook is laughable.

And Ali's vulnerability to the left hook has been massively over-stated to begin with. Frazier landed the left hook on Ali after rounds of exhuding endless pressure on Ali with his bob and weave style, not boxing him (which is what Holyfield would be doing). Quarry's left hook was as crisp and compact as Evander's (and a harder punch to boot) and he couldn't land it at all vs Ali.

I never said it would make that big of an impact on the fight. He could never pressure like Joe did.

You love you some Quarry. Hard to imagine a thread passing without you bringing him up. He did nothing better or equal to Evander. Not a thing.

Edit: Actually, Jerry had excellent stamina.

I brought up Quarry b/c he and Evander were style-wise very similar fighters, and both had excellent left hooks. And Quarry dropped and/or knocked out more fighers with his left hook than Holyfield did (those who were either knocked down or out including Chuvalo, Patterson, Alongi, Spencer, Mathis, Foster, Shavers, Bodell, and staggering Lyle several times)

Beyond dropping Bowe, Tyson (more a balance KD), and Mercer, I can't think of any notable left hooks Holyfield ever threw. And zero notable knockouts resulting from that punch.

This is the type of information that used to wander around these halls as "truth and facts", (catagories that have recently been claimed as being under the supervision of others.) However I'm going to file this under "relevant, and pertinent actualities". (Simply a formality) In order to guarantee proper filing, and in order not to cause confusion. This information WILL of course be available to those interested, in all future search requests.

[gilgamesh]

I brought up Quarry b/c he and Evander were style-wise very similar fighters, and both had excellent left hooks. And Quarry dropped and/or knocked out more fighers with his left hook than Holyfield did (those who were either knocked down or out including Chuvalo, Patterson, Alongi, Spencer, Mathis, Foster, Shavers, Bodell, and staggering Lyle several times)

Beyond dropping Bowe, Tyson (more a balance KD), and Mercer, I can't think of any notable left hooks Holyfield ever threw. And zero notable knockouts resulting from that punch.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he knock out Michael Dokes with a left hook? Plus in the 10th round of the first fight with Bowe, after being hurt by Bowe he rocked him in the latter half of the round with left hooks.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Holyfield had a good left hook but it was far from a Dempsey or Frazier knockout punch. I think Saad's comment regarding Evander's hook is laughable.

And Ali's vulnerability to the left hook has been massively over-stated to begin with. Frazier landed the left hook on Ali after rounds of exhuding endless pressure on Ali with his bob and weave style, not boxing him (which is what Holyfield would be doing). Quarry's left hook was as crisp and compact as Evander's (and a harder punch to boot) and he couldn't land it at all vs Ali.

I never said it would make that big of an impact on the fight. He could never pressure like Joe did.

You love you some Quarry. Hard to imagine a thread passing without you bringing him up. He did nothing better or equal to Evander. Not a thing.

Edit: Actually, Jerry had excellent stamina.

I brought up Quarry b/c he and Evander were style-wise very similar fighters, and both had excellent left hooks. And Quarry dropped and/or knocked out more fighers with his left hook than Holyfield did (those who were either knocked down or out including Chuvalo, Patterson, Alongi, Spencer, Mathis, Foster, Shavers, Bodell, and staggering Lyle several times)

Beyond dropping Bowe, Tyson (more a balance KD), and Mercer, I can't think of any notable left hooks Holyfield ever threw. And zero notable knockouts resulting from that punch.

Quarry isn't fit to carry Evander's spit bucket. I may as well compare Ali to Greg Page.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I brought up Quarry b/c he and Evander were style-wise very similar fighters, and both had excellent left hooks. And Quarry dropped and/or knocked out more fighers with his left hook than Holyfield did (those who were either knocked down or out including Chuvalo, Patterson, Alongi, Spencer, Mathis, Foster, Shavers, Bodell, and staggering Lyle several times)

Beyond dropping Bowe, Tyson (more a balance KD), and Mercer, I can't think of any notable left hooks Holyfield ever threw. And zero notable knockouts resulting from that punch.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he knock out Michael Dokes with a left hook? Plus in the 10th round of the first fight with Bowe, after being hurt by Bowe he rocked him in the latter half of the round with left hooks.

He will "correct" you, but you're not wrong.

[gilgamesh]

I didn't think I was, but I have fights in my library that I swear I remember the punch that caused the knockout and then when I rewatch it, it's something different from my memory. I suppose I just get fights mixed up with others sometimes. It happens when you've seen thousands upon thousands of boxing matches.

[BoxBuzz]

I wouldn't be surprised if Jerry Quarry would give Evander a bit more than he could handle.

But apparently I have my "facts" skewed.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

No, you're just wrong.

[BoxBuzz]

Balderdash....it would be a good give and take. And the winner would be hard to call.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Perhaps for you and Dempsey. The bookmakers and the rest of the world wouldn't even be mildly surprised when Holyfield beat Quarry to a pulp.

[BoxBuzz]

Saad.......you have an opinion.

And it is always welcome.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That's good to know.

[dempseyfire]

Both of these guys had superior left hooks to Holyfield, it's there for all to see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqGZIYpOF9M

[SaadOffTheDeck]

[BoxBuzz]

Eyes are only good when connected to an open mind.

Lordy Lordy, watching that first round ALWAYS gets my focused attention. Joe was actually moving back a step or two, while exchanging left hooks moment to moment and was even shaken up. (Though that was Jerry's right that seem to make that happen). Joe even lost that round! But of course not the war. That HAS to be one of the top five best rounds in the history of the sport. And more amazing a round where someone on earth WINS a round vs Joe Frazier via the most difficult path possible.

However, as we have been informed, Evander's Left Hook is equal to that of Joe's and superior to that of Jerry's. According to at least one expert who keeps tabs on these "facts".

I swear after watching this with my open eyes, connected to my open mind, I would be inclined to offer up a genuine argument in favor of Jerry's ability to hang very competitively with Evander, and speak to Joe's superior left hook.

However I"m told by a reliable source that if I did such a thing, I would be "wrong".

Nevertheless, I'm highly tempted to do so, despite the obvious consequences involved for making such a bold and daring statement..

What the hell, I'll live dangerously and I'll state that I believe that on the night of 6-23-69, Evander even at his best, would likely come up short against either of these men.

And I now must brace myself as Saad laughs heartily, and pokes fun at me

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I have Frazier's whole career on DVD, he is one of my favorite fighters. No issue with his hook rated over Holyfield's, but they are definitely in the same class. Quarry isn't with either of them.

[BoxBuzz]

From my perspective, the idea that you put Holyfield's hook in the same league as Frazier's, makes you a stand out contributor.

[dempseyfire]

Quarry's left hook was a game changing punch, it could turn a fight around.

Even at cruiserweight Holyfield almost always had to throw the kitchen sink at guys to get them out of there. I don't remember any commentators remarking on the 'Holyfield left hook' as some sort of danger punch. It was one of his better shots but generally just part of his arsenal which he used to wear guys out with via combination punching and outboxing them.

[BoxBuzz]

In my opinion Quarry's hook was indeed superior to Evander's. I think this holds up under most any serious clinical assessment.


LEGAL DISCLAIMER: I've received notice from the "facts dept" that I'm officially "wrong" on this subject.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I certainly don't need announcers or message board posters to validate my opinions. He fought a very high level of opposition during his career, that isn't going to lead to a ton of single shot KO's. Even in his late 40's Savarese hit the deck like he was shot out of a cannon.

I don't recall saying it was the most powerful hook ever, is that a requirement to rate a punch? It was short, compact and delivered with perfect technique. If he and either of these guys were trading left hooks, Holyfield's would get there first a high percentage of the time. Frazier's power makes his more dangerous. Quarry is inferior to Holyfield in every way.

As for game changing, Bowe, Dokes, Mercer & Tyson all had the fight change due to a single left hook.