Classic American West Coast Boxing

[kikibalt]

[THEHAMMER321]

Well, I saw "The Fighter" last night. All I can say about the movie is that it's another "boxing movie" that really isn't about boxing. . .

I'm planning to see "True Grit" when it comes out . . . hopefully, it will be an Old West movie that's really about the Old West . . .

Tom, as far as westerns go,the westerns made in the last 30 years to me seem to be missing something, maybe its John Wayne

[raylawpc]

Well, I saw "The Fighter" last night. All I can say about the movie is that it's another "boxing movie" that really isn't about boxing. . .

I'm planning to see "True Grit" when it comes out . . . hopefully, it will be an Old West movie that's really about the Old West . . .

Tom, as far as westerns go,the westerns made in the last 30 years to me seem to be missing something, maybe its John Wayne

[kikibalt]

Frank wrote:
Thanks Charlie for your kind words, but I'm not "sharp as a tack". I wish my memory was as good as Rick's, Hap's and Don Fraser's, but truth be told, it is not, though Hap and Don have some years on me they have a better memory then I. As some of the guys here know I went through a bout with cancer and a treatment that left me with short and long term memory loss, I can't remember enough to write much of anything. The stories that I have written are fiction, though I use little bits of my life experience to write them, an I have to say its been fun writing them.
-----------------------------------------------------

Frank, I'm not just being kind when I say that your memory is at the foundation of this thread. It's human nature for a person's recall to be affected by age, medication, etc. however, I hope my memory is as good as yours, Hap's and Don's as I age. You can say all you want about medication, and I'm sure it has had some effect, but as far as I am concerned, "Sharp as a tack" is appropriate in describing your memory! My opinion.

Thanks Rick......

[kikibalt]

Frank I know you see Jesus Pimental at the CBOF functions, I was just reading some of my old boxing magazines, and they profiled his career in one I was reading last night,it talked about he had problems with Eileen Eaton and George Parnassus, and that was part of the reason he didn't get a title shot until he was over 30, do you know if the problems with Eaton and Parnassus were because of his manager.

Most people in the Los Angeles boxing community blame Harry Kabakoff for that, and I agree with that, I think Harry over protected Jessie. There were times when he could have gotten Jess a title fight but Harry would start yelling about the money and most people could see that that was his way of turning the fights down. By the way, Jackie mcCoy and I did just that when we were offered a title shot for Frankie against the great Alexis Arguello, we thought that Frankie at that point in 1979, I think it was in 1979, was not ready for AA, hell, he probably never would had been ready for AA, but any way we were offered 35k and we asked for 75k knowing that Don King would never go along with that, we lost on 35k, but I thing saved Frankie from an ass whipping, of course had AA not been the monster that he was we would had fought him for the 35k.

You know Frank, I admire your honesty about Frankies chances vs AA, but Tony on the other hand, I would have given him a chance versus all of the lightweights even Aaron Pryor because of Pryors wide open style, Mancini same thing wide open, Rosario would have been a great fight, the guys who would have been the most difficult for Tony in my opinion would have been Tyrone Crawley, and Livingstone Bramble,oh I almost forgot another couple of guys Tony could have fought at jr wetler Gene Hatcher or Bruce Curry, both of those guys would have been open for the left hook.

Paul, Tony had a chance to beat any fighter that would stand in front of him and go toe to toe with him, the boxers/movers were the ones he has trouble with, so yes I agree with your above post.....

[Rick Farris]

Well, I saw "The Fighter" last night. All I can say about the movie is that it's another "boxing movie" that really isn't about boxing. . .

I'm planning to see "True Grit" when it comes out . . . hopefully, it will be an Old West movie that's really about the Old West . . .

Nope, it wasn't about boxing. In fact, little about Ward's career history was mentioned.
I didn't recognize or bother to reference any of the opponents names that were used.
I enjoyed the movie, but boxing seemed to be nothing more than a vehicle for a diffent story.
The sad reality is, pure boxing movies don't sell. Rocky sold, Ali didn't.
Cinderella Man made some money on it's star power, but wasn't great. The Raging Bull was done decades ago.

Tom, my Uncle did the original True Grit, as well as the sequel, Rooster Cogburn.
I have no expectations regarding the new version. The original was a great movie, and had the Duke.

[CNorkusJr]

Well, I saw "The Fighter" last night. All I can say about the movie is that it's another "boxing movie" that really isn't about boxing. . .

I'm planning to see "True Grit" when it comes out . . . hopefully, it will be an Old West movie that's really about the Old West . . .

Tom, as far as westerns go,the westerns made in the last 30 years to me seem to be missing something, maybe its John Wayne

Or Walter Brennan

I like some Clint Eastwood Westerns specifically: Outlaw Josie Wales & Unforgiven

[CNorkusJr]

Last two days here, the news have been running video and news reports of California's rain and torrents. One report stated that in higher elevations that the hills are unstable.
I immediately thought of the hill that you, Rick, were talking about running up & down by your house.
The area they seem to show is alot is "The Laguna" ? area. Looks bad.

Hope you guys and property OK.

[raylawpc]

Well, I saw "The Fighter" last night. All I can say about the movie is that it's another "boxing movie" that really isn't about boxing. . .

I'm planning to see "True Grit" when it comes out . . . hopefully, it will be an Old West movie that's really about the Old West . . .

Nope, it wasn't about boxing. In fact, little about Ward's career history was mentioned.
I didn't recognize or bother to reference any of the opponents names that were used.
I enjoyed the movie, but boxing seemed to be nothing more than a vehicle for a diffent story.
The sad reality is, pure boxing movies don't sell. Rocky sold, Ali didn't.
Cinderella Man made some money on it's star power, but wasn't great. The Raging Bull was done decades ago.

Tom, my Uncle did the original True Grit, as well as the sequel, Rooster Cogburn.
I have no expectations regarding the new version. The original was a great movie, and had the Duke.

Yes, boxing was merely the backdrop. It could have been about a racecar driver or an NBA player, or even a door-to-door salesman.

My son and I were talking about it this afternoon, and it occurred to me that the movie was as much about Dicky Eklund as Micky Ward.

[kikibalt]

Well, I saw "The Fighter" last night. All I can say about the movie is that it's another "boxing movie" that really isn't about boxing. . .

I'm planning to see "True Grit" when it comes out . . . hopefully, it will be an Old West movie that's really about the Old West . . .

Tom, as far as westerns go,the westerns made in the last 30 years to me seem to be missing something, maybe its John Wayne

Or Walter Brennan

I like some Clint Eastwood Westerns specifically: Outlaw Josie Wales & Unforgiven

Watching "True Grit" (1969} with John Wayne and Kim Darby on TMC......

[kikibalt]

Jackie Leonard (Hollywood Legion Stadium) & Truman Gibson (IBC)

[Rick Farris]

Watching "True Grit" (1969} with John Wayne and Kim Darby on TMC...... [/quote]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I knew Kim Darby very well, she was CRAZY!!! I mean CRAZZZZZY!

[Rick Farris]

Frank . . . These Hollywood Legion programs are great! The names, so many I have heard of, a couple I saw fight, and a few I have met in years since, such as Vince Delgado, really paint a picture of how great boxing was back then. It can never be the same, and maybe it shouldn't be, but boxing was once special in the City of Angels.

[Rick Farris]

Karl Heinz Guder vs Ramon Tiscareno . . .

Do you remember that one Frank? I saw it listed in one of the programs above. This would be Ticareno's last fight.
I've heard a lot about Tiscareno from you & Don Fraser.
I know he wasn't a big puncher, but it seems he was a good boxer? Any memories?
He fought some good fighters here, including Art Aragon, and scored some good wins, most by decison.

[Rick Farris]

Ramon Tiscareno

welterweight
Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico
won 56 (KO 15) + lost 14 (by KO-8) 4 draws



1958-02-01 148 Karl Heinz Guder 149 21-4-1
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States L KO 5 10
time: 2:59

1957-11-16 147½ Vince Martinez 148½ 57-5-0
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States L TKO 6 10
time: 0:29 | referee: Frankie Van

1957-08-24 144½ Willie Morton 143 9-0-0
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W UD 10 10
referee: Jimmy Wilson 96-95 | judge: Frankie Van 96-94 | judge: Charley Randolph 97-94
Morton was knocked down for a two-count in the 1st round.

1957-08-05 Steve Tony 5-4-0
San Bernardino, California, United States W KO 1
1957-04-27 146 Alvaro Gutierrez 146 12-4-1
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W TKO 6 10
time: 2:53 | referee: John Thomas
Gutierrez was halted, due to a cut over one of his eyes.

1956-10-06 David Cervantes 12-11-2
Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico W KO 9 10
1956-09-24 Gilberto Holguin 11-3-4
Auditorio Municipal, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W UD 10 10
1956-05-12 145½ Art Ramponi 137½ 21-9-1
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W UD 10 10
1956-02-07 148 Art Aragon 146 69-16-5
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States L KO 2 10
time: 2:38 | referee: Abe Roth
Tiscareno floored Aragon for an 8-count in the second round, but Art then put Tiscareno down twice, the second time for the full count.

1955-11-12 146 Henry Davis 139 50-20-5
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W UD 10 10
1955-10-22 147½ Dick Goldstein 147 27-9-2
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W UD 10 10
Goldstein was knocked down in the 9th round.

1955-10-03 Julio Cesar Jimenez 33-23-4
Auditorio Municipal, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W UD 10 10
1955-09-15 145½ Carlos Chavez 142½ 66-30-9
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W UD 10 10
referee: Tommy Hart 57-53 | judge: Jack McDonald 57-53 | judge: Mushy Callahan 59-51

1955-08-18 146½ Woody Winslow 151 19-26-7
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States L TKO 3 10
time: 2:28 | referee: Lee Grossman
Tiscareno was knocked down six times in the 3rd round.

1955-07-09 146 Philip Kim 148 41-12-3
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W UD 10 10
1955-05-24 El Conscripto 27-20-4
Mexicali, Baja California, Mexico W PTS 10 10
1955-04-24 David Cervantes 5-8-2
Mexicali, Baja California, Mexico W KO 8
1955-03-22 147½ Art Soto 152½ 37-19-4
Arena, Ocean Park, California, United States W UD 10 10
referee: Mushy Callahan 56½-53½ | judge: Charley Randolph 56-54 | judge: Jimmy Wallace 57-53

1955-02-21 146 Giuseppe Fusaro 146 38-21-16
Civic Center, Butte, Montana, United States W UD 10 10
1955-02-03 148 Ernie Greer 147 24-21-11
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W UD 10 10
referee: George Latka 58-51 | judge: Frankie Van 58-51 | judge: Frank Holborow 56½-52½

1955-01-18 147 Lou Gage 149½ 11-2-0
Arena, Ocean Park, California, United States W UD 10 10
referee: John Thomas 57-53 | judge: Frankie Van 59½-50½ | judge: Tommy Hart 58-52

1954-12-28 146½ Ernie Greer 150 24-21-10
Arena, Ocean Park, California, United States D PTS 10 10
referee: Russ Bradford 55-55

1954-11-23 146½ Frankie Ray 146 3-2-0
Arena, Ocean Park, California, United States W RTD 6 10
Ray was down in the 4th round, his corner stopped the bout after the 6th round.

1954-10-18 145¾ Gerald Dreyer 149½ 38-5-2
St. Nicholas Arena, New York, New York, United States L TKO 1 10
Tiscareno was down three times triggering an automatic stoppage.

1954-07-19 144½ Mario Trigo 139¼ 62-42-11
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W UD 10 10
referee: Dynamite Jackson 58½-51½ | judge: Joe Stone 58-52 | judge: Reggie Gilmore 58-52

1954-06-28 145 Giampaolo Melis 146 29-6-2
Civic Center, Butte, Montana, United States W UD 10 10
Melis was knocked down in the 10th round

1954-04-27 147½ Lou Gage 148 10-1-0
Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento, California, United States W PTS 10 10
1954-03-29 147 Emerson Butcher 145 26-17-11
Civic Center, Butte, Montana, United States W UD 10 10
"Neither battler was visibly marked during the 10-rounder, in which no knockdowns were recorded. Tiscareno piled up points with his sharper punching...." (United Press)

1954-02-22 Bill Sudduth 41-12-5
Civic Center, Butte, Montana, United States W SD 10 10
1953-12-14 143¼ Chu Chu Jiminez 142 26-20-7
Arena, South Gate, California, United States W TKO 6 10
time: 0:55 | referee: Lee Grossman
Bout was stopped because of a badly cut eye.

1953-11-03 141½ Joe Fisher 141 26-8-0
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W KO 2 10
time: 0:45 | referee: Joe Stone

1953-10-20 Freddie Herman 138 42-34-8
Sacramento, California, United States W PTS 10 10
1953-09-15 141 Mario Trigo 138 60-37-9
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States L MD 10 10
referee: Charley Randolph 54-56½ | judge: Mushy Callahan 54½-55½ | judge: Lee Grossman 55-55

1953-08-11 139½ Santiago Esteban 138½ 20-2-0
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W TKO 7 10
time: 2:24 | referee: Joe Stone
Esteban was knocked down for a nine-count in the 6th round. He was knocked down once more in the 7th round.

1953-06-23 138½ Santiago Esteban 140 20-1-0
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W MD 10 10
referee: Reggie Gilmore 56½-53½ | judge: Jimmy Wallace 55-55 | judge: Jimmy Wilson 56-54

1953-05-19 141 Freddie Herman 141½ 39-31-5
Olympic Auditorium, Los Angeles, California, United States W MD 10 10
referee: Mushy Callahan 57-53 | judge: Lee Grossman 55-55 | judge: Reggie Gilmore 57-53
Tiscareno was knocked down in the 1st round, for a one-count.

1953-03-14 142 Archie Whitewater 146 46-17-5
Municipal Auditorium, Eureka, California, United States W PTS 10 10
1952-12-06 Joey Gurrola 15-3-6
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W TKO 10 10
time: 0:55 | referee: Mushy Callahan 46-43
Gurrola was knocked down twice in the 9th round.

1952-11-19 Jose Galacia 4-0-0
Auditorio Municipal, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W PTS 8 8
1952-10-06 136 Eddie Chavez 138 40-6-3
American Legion, Butte, Montana, United States L KO 5 10
time: 1:10

1952-09-05 Jorge Macias 9-8-2
Mexicali, Baja California, Mexico W KO 9
1952-08-23 135½ Carmen Venuto 135½ 5-2-1
Legion Stadium, Hollywood, California, United States W PTS 6 6
Tiscareno was knocked down in the 4th round, Venuto in the 5th.

1952-08-08 David Cervantes
Mexicali, Baja California, Mexico W PTS 10 10
1952-06-14 Babe Ruelas 2-4-0
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico L KO 4
1952-05-17 Chico Escamilla 6-3-1
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico W KO 3
1952-04-15 141 Oscar Price 135 10-14-4
Armory, Albuquerque, New Mexico, United States L SD 10 10
referee: Jim Cleary | judge: Johnny Letto | judge: Johnny Schubert

1951-09-26 Baby Face Mathis 30-17-8
Bull Ring, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W PTS 10 10
1951-08-21 Bobby Rodriguez
Bull Ring, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W KO 2 10
time: 2:22

1951-07-18 Hank Davis 22-9-7
Phoenix, Arizona, United States W PTS 6 6
1951-07-03 Ray Perez 6-0-4
Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W PTS 6 6
1951-06-15 Ray Perez 6-0-3
El Paso, Texas, United States D PTS 6 6
1951-04-20 Jose Roque 0-1-0
Acapulco, Guerrero, Mexico W KO 3
1951-04-18 Pancho Velasco 1-5-0
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico W KO 3
1951-03-31 Baby Vasquez 7-5-0
Mexico City, Distrito Federal, Mexico L PTS 10 10
1951-01-24 136¼ Ray Perez 138 4-0-2
Coliseum, El Paso, Texas, United States L PTS 10 10
1950-12-06 Rudy Valdez 0-2-0
Auditorio Municipal, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W TKO 3 6
referee: Bobby Fernandez

1950-11-08 Jorge Cid 0-3-0
Auditorio Municipal, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W PTS 6 6
1950-10-18 Tony Olivas 6-5-2
Auditorio Municipal, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W PTS 6 6
1950-10-03 Jorge Cid 0-2-0
Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W PTS 6 6
1950-09-20 Juan Leanos 7-5-0
Torreon, Coahuila de Zaragoza, Mexico L PTS 10 10
1950-09-13 Francisco Babe Escoria 0-1-0
Torreon, Coahuila de Zaragoza, Mexico W PTS 10 10
1950-09-08 Ray Perez 4-0-0
Bull Ring, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico D PTS 6 6
1950-08-28 Johnny Hart 6-2-2
Phoenix, Arizona, United States W PTS 6 6
1950-08-16 133 Ray Perez 135½ 3-0-0
El Paso County Coliseum, El Paso, Texas, United States L SD 6 6
1950-08-09 126 Marcus Vasquez 127 12-14-5
Softball Park, Phoenix, Arizona, United States D PTS 6 6
1950-07-28 Jorge Cid 0-1-0
Bull Ring, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W SD 6 6
1950-05-07 Alex Fimbres
Superior, Arizona, United States W PTS 6 6
1950-03-07 Enrique Estrada 2-3-2
Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W PTS 6 6
1950-02-08 Marcus Vasquez 7-10-2
Phoenix, Arizona, United States W PTS 6 6
1950-02-08 Jose Arguelles 0-2-0
Auditorio Municipal, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W PTS 6 6
1950-01-03 Enrique Estrada 2-1-1
Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W PTS 6 6
1949-12-20 Gerardo Muniz 7-4-1
Auditorio Municipal, Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico W UD 6 6
1949-12-12 133 Bobby Satchell 130 3-3-2
San Agustin Arena, Tucson, Arizona, United States W PTS 4 4
1949-07-11 Packy McFarland 3-0-1
Sports Center, Tucson, Arizona, United States

[Rick Farris]

Boxing in L.A. on Xmas Day . . .

You know, Aileen Eaton, George Parnassus, Don Fraser and Don Chargin scheduled a lot of great fights on a variety of the 365 available days of the year.
But I can't remember one of them, or anybody else, scheduling boxing on Christmas day.
Well, two boxing cards will be held in Southern Cal on Xmas. One in Los Angeles, one in Ontario.
Why Christmas?

[Rick Farris]

Jackie Leonard (Hollywood Legion Stadium) & Truman Gibson (IBC)

At one point, boxing became quite a headache for Jackie Leonard.

[Rick Farris]

Boxing trainer Jack Leonard dies at 89 (from April 27, 2007)

WINTER HAVEN, Fla. (AP) — Jack Leonard, a boxing trainer who was attacked after refusing to turn a champion fighter's contract to the mob, has died. He was 89.
Leonard died from heart failure on Saturday, officials at the Brandywine Health Care Center confirmed Monday.

He first boxed as an amateur at age 14, and turned professional as a welterweight. He later became a trainer, coach and promoter.

Among his boxers was welterweight Don Jordan, who became a world champion in the early 1950s.

Organized crime figures tried to force Leonard to turn over his contract with Jordan, but he refused and was later attacked at home by unknown assailants. He later testified before a federal grand jury about those who had approached him, and eight people eventually were sent to prison.

Born Leonard Blakely in Conway, Ark., in 1917, Leonard spent much of his life in California. He had been living in Winter Haven, where he started a boxing program for the local police athletic league in 1984.

Unbeaten Haitian welterweight Andre Berto is among the boxers whose careers Leonard helped start in Florida, said Tony Morgan, who took over the PAL team after Leonard had a heart attack in 1995.

Leonard is survived by his wife, Jeanne.

[kikibalt]

Karl Heinz Guder vs Ramon Tiscareno . . .

Do you remember that one Frank? I saw it listed in one of the programs above. This would be Ticareno's last fight.
I've heard a lot about Tiscareno from you & Don Fraser.
I know he wasn't a big puncher, but it seems he was a good boxer? Any memories?
He fought some good fighters here, including Art Aragon, and scored some good wins, most by decison.

Rick, I didn't see the Guder fight, I remember reading about it at the time. I did see Ramon T. fight a few times live and on local TV, I was at the Legion for his fights vs Aragon and Vince Martinez. Ramon was a good boxer who like you say wasn't a big puncher, He, Ramon, will be inducted into the CBHOF come June.

[kikibalt]

On this Hollywood Legion card you see that Joe Chavez is fighting a six rounder, this is the same Joe Chavez that you see working as a cut man in many of today's big fights.

[kikibalt]

Boxing in L.A. on Xmas Day . . .

You know, Aileen Eaton, George Parnassus, Don Fraser and Don Chargin scheduled a lot of great fights on a variety of the 365 available days of the year.
But I can't remember one of them, or anybody else, scheduling boxing on Christmas day.
Well, two boxing cards will be held in Southern Cal on Xmas. One in Los Angeles, one in Ontario.
Why Christmas?

[CNorkusJr]

On this Hollywood Legion card you see that Joe Chavez is fighting a six rounder, this is the same Joe Chavez that you see working as a cut man in many of today's big fights.

If you look in a small box above the names, the card tells you the weight classes and the assoc weight minimum/maximum.

3 months ago I attended a local card here on Long Island. Five guys in the row in front of me got into it (no punches) argueing over what the various weight limits that are out there today. They argued for two whole fights on the card and still didnt have it settled after.
It got to the point where it had me thinking about the limits for divisions like cruiserweight and Lt Heavyweight myself. Super-middleweight they couldnt even come close.
8 divisions-either your in or your out- those were the days.

[kikibalt]

On this Hollywood Legion card you see that Joe Chavez is fighting a six rounder, this is the same Joe Chavez that you see working as a cut man in many of today's big fights.

If you look in a small box above the names, the card tells you the weight classes and the assoc weight minimum/maximum.
.
8 divisions-either your in or your out- "those were the days".

"those thrilling days of yesteryear"
Fred Foy, announcer-narrator of "The Lone Ranger" on radio and television

[raylawpc]

On this Hollywood Legion card you see that Joe Chavez is fighting a six rounder, this is the same Joe Chavez that you see working as a cut man in many of today's big fights.

If you look in a small box above the names, the card tells you the weight classes and the assoc weight minimum/maximum.

3 months ago I attended a local card here on Long Island. Five guys in the row in front of me got into it (no punches) argueing over what the various weight limits that are out there today. They argued for two whole fights on the card and still didnt have it settled after.
It got to the point where it had me thinking about the limits for divisions like cruiserweight and Lt Heavyweight myself. Super-middleweight they couldnt even come close.
8 divisions-either your in or your out- those were the days.

And (for the most part) ONE champion for each of those eight divisions. Ah, the 50s: When men were men, and women were women, and champions were undisputed . . .

[kikibalt]

And (for the most part) ONE champion for each of those eight divisions. Ah, the 50s: When men were men, and women were women, and champions were undisputed . . .

When women wanted to be women......