to Jaclem and all u non experts who belittle marciano

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 May 2005, 00:46

Anyone who wants me to write why rocky marciano is in the top 3 greatest heavyweights of all time and why would would have eaten up the big men just ask. I will astonish u and educate u on marciano. After watching and reading his books, I realize how good he is and only his opponents in the ring knew how good he was and they even said how much he was underated. Ali himself said marciano was a lot harder to hit a jab with than he thought. so anyone interested in a reason why i rate marciano that high next to ali and louis u will get it.
my top 10 heavyweights of all time:
1. Joe Louis
2. Ali
3. Marciano
4. Prime Tyson (under rooney) - u guys need to realize the young tyson would have taken out lewis and holyfield in his prime
5. foreman
6. frasier
7. Holmes
8. Johnson
9. Lennox
10: Liston
HM: Jersey Joe Walcott- all of u underate this brilliant fighter and hard puncher
Dempsey- simple reason hes not in the top ten, HE NEVER FOUGHT A BLACK FIGHTER.

- holyfield has a lot of trouble with bigger man, and though he has heart, he lost to bowe moorer and lewis in his prime. I look at holyfield more as the best cruiser ever. He even had toruble with a 42 year old foreman. I think holyfield has amazing heart but he just lacks some tools and one shot power and he wouldnt beaten any of the ten on my list.

barry · Post by **barry** » 29 May 2005, 01:28

Hey genius, Dempsey fought three black fighters, Anamas Campbell, Boston Bearcat and John Lester Johnson! Holyfield wouldn't beat any in your top ten...most thought that a way past his prime Holyfield beat Lennox Lewis in their second bout!

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 May 2005, 01:39

he never fought harry wills. I am talking about a top black contender that wanted a shot but didnt get one. I wish dempsey had fought wills.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 May 2005, 01:41

Barry give me ur top ten list. i want to see how we compare. and by the way i thought lewis clearly won the first and narrowly defeated him in th 2nd i had it 115-113. I thought lewis won both fights but u have a different opinion and thats good cause we can have a debate.

barry · Post by **barry** » 29 May 2005, 02:07

Here it is, but I'm not going to go through it defending my choices because it is too time consumning and I have done it enough in the past:

Heavyweight

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Mike Tyson
7. Jim Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Larry Holmes
11. Joe Frazier
12. Max Baer
13. Sam Langford
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Gene Tunney
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Peter Jackson
19. John L. Sullivan
20. Tommy Burns

But as you can see, I think the myth that the "bigger heavyweight is better" argument is plain bullshit!

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 May 2005, 02:14

Barry u know i like that list its similair to mine. And i just want to let u know I think Dempsey is a tough powerful fighter who i prob should have in my top ten list. I just wish he fought harry wills. I wish hehad foughten the top blacks heavyweights of his era. he will get more respect. Demspey came in a time where he was ALLOWED TO STAND ON TOP OF HIS OPPONENT RATEHR THAN GOING TO THE NUETRAL CORNER. thats hurts him. Dempsey could wack with that left hook though. he gave willard a fornicating beating whether he put shit in his gloves or not. His best fight was against firpo and he showed heart in that fight. I dont like the way he flailed his hands alot he loookes ratehr sloppy and Ali might have taken advantage of the fact he threw his punches wide ratehr than inside with a good stance. BUt i probably agree dempesey has enough to be i the top 10

barry · Post by **barry** » 29 May 2005, 02:16

I'm glad to hear that you want to be a boxing historian. I'd suggest getting a membership to http://www.newspaperarchive.com, as they have probably well over a million boxing articles from early 1800s to the present, but it's a place where you can learn about pretty much all the greats through contemporary newspaper accounts of their era. Some other sites that I would suggest that do not have a few would be, just type boxing in the search engines, or a particular fighter that you want to read about:

http://www.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/eagle/

http://www.ourfutureourpast.ca/newspapr/

http://gunnison.aclin.org/Archive/skins ... %26BP%3DOK

http://www.lib.utah.edu/digital/unews/index.html

barry · Post by **barry** » 29 May 2005, 02:19

The newspaper archive link isn't working, so you could probably type into your regular search engine, yahoo, or whatever search you use.

barry · Post by **barry** » 29 May 2005, 02:20

It just had a comma on the link:

try this:

http://www.newspaperarchive.com

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 29 May 2005, 02:49

..brocktonboy...nice of you to list your top heavyweights even though no one asked. sometimes it's best just to go ahead and take the initiative.

1.no fighter was ever more dedicated to being in condition than marciano was. he was strong, had incredible endurance and courageous.

2. he was not a great fighter.

3. i am not a non-expert.

have a happy and safe memorial day,

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 May 2005, 03:21

I never called u a non expert. I think some of ur comments about marciano were i feel unintelligent and a type of comment that a non expert would say. So if u are an expert, I want u too really look more in depth at marciano, really look at the biased side. read his books u will see he is one of the most respected champs ever. Even Ali never talks badly about marciano thewway he does about guys like louis and johnson and jeffries and liston. Marciano had a image that was so tough and everyone that knew him knew that and thats why he is one of th most repected heavyweights in history by other greats,.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 May 2005, 09:03

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:I never called u a non expert. I think some of ur comments about marciano were i feel unintelligent and a type of comment that a non expert would say. So if u are an expert, I want u too really look more in depth at marciano, really look at the biased side. read his books u will see he is one of the most respected champs ever. Even Ali never talks badly about marciano thewway he does about guys like louis and johnson and jeffries and liston. Marciano had a image that was so tough and everyone that knew him knew that and thats why he is one of th most repected heavyweights in history by other greats,.

Who are you to call someone elses views unintelligent?... its funny that people like you seem to think that anyone with a different opinion to you doesn't know what theyre talking about.
Regarding Ali, I have never heard him talking badly about Louis, Johnson or Liston... its well known that Ali liked Liston and behind the scenes got on with him well. He certainly didn't rate Marciano over these other champs. Marciano was a very tough fighter but you can't avoid the fact that he was very well managed and also took on very limited opposition.
His best opponents were Walcott, Charles and Moore... all well past their peaks when they fought Marciano.
Marciano probably belongs in the all time top ten at Heavy but I would definately rate Ali, Louis, Holmes, Johnson, Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Jeffries and Tunney above him....

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 30 May 2005, 13:46

WELL MANAGED??? AL WEILL SCREWED MARCIANO OUT OF MONEY AGAINST DON COCKELL AND THATS ONE OF THE REASONS MARCIANO DID RETIRE. HE SAID IF HED COME BACK, HE WOULD NEVER FIGHT FOR AL WEILL AGAIN. AL DID SOME GOOD THINGS FOR HIM BUT WHEN IT CAME DOWN TO IT, AL WEILL WAS A SHREWD MAN.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 30 May 2005, 14:15

I have nothing but respect for the late Rocky Marciano he was one of the most dedicated, hard training and determined fighters I have ever seen.

One way of looking at Marciano's record is that he was 49-0 and it's hard to argue with those figures they demand respect.

However, looking at the his career a little closer you see that he was brought along quite slowly at first in order to allow him to develop as a fighter. This was due in parts to a relatively short amateur career, The Rock was very, very raw when his turned professional.

During his championship years, the best fighters he fought Wallcott, Charles and Moore were all former Middleweights and Light-Heavyweights and all of whom were past there best. That's of course not Marcianos fault he can only fight the people put in front of him. But that doesn't change the opinion that most fans feel Marcianos title reign was against 'old' fighters. Also as a side issue it would have been interested to see marciano face an in-shape and motivted Nino Valdez.

Rocky Marciano had the heart, stamina, determination and punch to give any of the Heavyweight greats plenty to think about. But for me, The Rock would be near the bottom of my top ten list.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 May 2005, 14:19

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:WELL MANAGED??? AL WEILL SCREWED MARCIANO OUT OF MONEY AGAINST DON COCKELL AND THATS ONE OF THE REASONS MARCIANO DID RETIRE. HE SAID IF HED COME BACK, HE WOULD NEVER FIGHT FOR AL WEILL AGAIN. AL DID SOME GOOD THINGS FOR HIM BUT WHEN IT CAME DOWN TO IT, AL WEILL WAS A SHREWD MAN.

Weill may well have done Rocky out of some money, many managers rip off their fighters it seems but the fact is that Rocky was carefully managed in who he fought, especially on his rise up. Even as champion there were a number of fighters that Rocky was kept away from, Nino Valdez for instance was a formidable fighter and ranked very high in the early to mid 50s but never got near Marciano. Archie Moore only got the fight with Marciano after running a letter campaign through The Ring magazine... Weill didn't want Rocky to take that fight.
Aside from his dislike of Weill Rocky retired becuase he was having continual trouble with his nose and also he had a back problem I think... basically his body had taken enough and he was wise enough to recognise that and quit.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 30 May 2005, 14:29

...this thread has brought forth some very good posts..on both sides of the argument and i have nothing else to add.

well...just a couple. my saying prime ezzard would beat marciano is opinion. my saying charles was past his prime...well past his prime and not in the condition he was in those days is fact.

i agree now that i think about it...i am NOT an expert on boxing. i am an AUTHORITY.....though too modest to say that in some circles i am THE
authority.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 May 2005, 14:51

Jaclem wrote:...this thread has brought forth some very good posts..on both sides of the argument and i have nothing else to add.

well...just a couple. my saying prime ezzard would beat marciano is opinion. my saying charles was past his prime...well past his prime and not in the condition he was in those days is fact.

i agree now that i think about it...i am NOT an expert on boxing. i am an AUTHORITY.....though too modest to say that in some circles i am THE
authority.

Yes Charles was certainly past his best when he fought Marciano and also remember that Walcott beat a younger Charles far more easily than Marcinao ever managed... I think the Ezzard Charles of the late 40s would have beaten Rocky quite comfortably.
Also this idea of calling yourself a 'expert' Brockton is rather arrogant... I have been watching, reading, writing and following boxing for 30 + years and am old enough to recognise that you never know as much as you think you do about anything in life.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 30 May 2005, 17:09

HOLD ON A MINUTE NINO VALDES DID NOT FIGHT ROCKY MARCIANO BECAUSE ARCHIE MOORE KICKED THE CRAP OUT OF NINO FOR 15 ROUNDS IN A ELIMINATER WHICH GAVE ARCHIE A SHOT. IF NINO HAD WON HE WOULD HAVE FACED ROCKY.. JUST BECAUSE NINOS BIGGER THAT MEANS SHIT, AND IT SHOWS BY ROCKY BEATING ARCHIE MOOORE THAT U SHOULD GIVE HIM MORE RESPECT THAN IF HE BEAT NINO CAUSE NINO WAS BEATEN BY ARCHIE. DOESNT MATETR THAT NINO WAS 6'3 220 LBS. ARCHIE WAS THE BETTER CHALENGER. AND A PRIME CHARLES WAS NO MATCH FOR MARCIANO

Ezzard charles said "u know something marcianos a lot better than u peopele think." ezzard knows he got himself into the best shape of his life for oboth fights and he lost both and the 2nd convingsgly. in the 2nd fight in todays era, we would have gone to scorecards and marciano would have twechnial desicion. EZZARD CHARLES GOT HIMSELF BACK INTO HIS PRIM AGAINST MARCIANO. marciano refuesd to accept defeat, im sure he wouldnt let charles ever beaten him and rcoky was too strong and physical and powerful for charles. by the way marciano was 30 when he fought charles, mnarciano was fading marciano was at his best at 27 when he beat layne and louis. so marciano wasnt at his best. who knows if marciano had started eariler how good he would be at 24 25 26 fighting for the title. marciano got a late start butu underestimate how good he is. rocky is tough to outpoit over 15 rounds he just lands and throws to many punches hes the agressor. no way charles would beat him.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 30 May 2005, 18:04

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:HOLD ON A MINUTE NINO VALDES DID NOT FIGHT ROCKY MARCIANO BECAUSE ARCHIE MOORE KICKED THE CRAP OUT OF NINO FOR 15 ROUNDS IN A ELIMINATER WHICH GAVE ARCHIE A SHOT. IF NINO HAD WON HE WOULD HAVE FACED ROCKY.. JUST BECAUSE NINOS BIGGER THAT MEANS SHIT, AND IT SHOWS BY ROCKY BEATING ARCHIE MOOORE THAT U SHOULD GIVE HIM MORE RESPECT THAN IF HE BEAT NINO CAUSE NINO WAS BEATEN BY ARCHIE. DOESNT MATETR THAT NINO WAS 6'3 220 LBS. ARCHIE WAS THE BETTER CHALENGER. AND A PRIME CHARLES WAS NO MATCH FOR MARCIANO

Ezzard charles said "u know something marcianos a lot better than u peopele think." ezzard knows he got himself into the best shape of his life for oboth fights and he lost both and the 2nd convingsgly. in the 2nd fight in todays era, we would have gone to scorecards and marciano would have twechnial desicion. EZZARD CHARLES GOT HIMSELF BACK INTO HIS PRIM AGAINST MARCIANO. marciano refuesd to accept defeat, im sure he wouldnt let charles ever beaten him and rcoky was too strong and physical and powerful for charles. by the way marciano was 30 when he fought charles, mnarciano was fading marciano was at his best at 27 when he beat layne and louis. so marciano wasnt at his best. who knows if marciano had started eariler how good he would be at 24 25 26 fighting for the title. marciano got a late start butu underestimate how good he is. rocky is tough to outpoit over 15 rounds he just lands and throws to many punches hes the agressor. no way charles would beat him.

Nino had already been waiting for a shot for abour 2 years when he got the fight with Moore. You can't say that Charles was back in his prime just because he gave Rocky hell! thats just biased like a lot of things you say. I have fights of Charles from the late 40s and the man who fought Marciano was much slower and had to go toe to toe a lot while a peak Charles would have boxed a lot more.
These are facts?... how many fights have you seen of Charles???.

barry · Post by **barry** » 30 May 2005, 19:27

There were several fighters that Rock missed out on fighting. Bob Baker, Tommy Jackson, Nino Valdez, Earl Walls, Bob Satterfield, Harold Johnson and a host of others. Of course I doubt that any would have beat Marciano, but they would have been more of a risk than a Don Cockell, or Roland LaStarza. Also, Marciano was offered 1.2 million dollars around 1957, 0r 1958 to fight Floyd Patterson, but Rocky declined. His real reason for retiring laid mostly on his father and what he had to go through to train...not Al Weill. His father, who always watch Marciano train spoke to his son before, I think the Cockell fight and said something like, "Rock, I have watched you suffer, miss your family and miss out on several things in life all so you could train. If you want to see me live 10, or 15 more years then quit doing this to yourself."

With that BB, I ask do you know what the Rock's father was talking about when he said, "quit doing this to yourself." I really want to know, so please don't avoid the question.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 30 May 2005, 19:28

silkov wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:HOLD ON A MINUTE NINO VALDES DID NOT FIGHT ROCKY MARCIANO BECAUSE ARCHIE MOORE KICKED THE CRAP OUT OF NINO FOR 15 ROUNDS IN A ELIMINATER WHICH GAVE ARCHIE A SHOT. IF NINO HAD WON HE WOULD HAVE FACED ROCKY.. JUST BECAUSE NINOS BIGGER THAT MEANS SHIT, AND IT SHOWS BY ROCKY BEATING ARCHIE MOOORE THAT U SHOULD GIVE HIM MORE RESPECT THAN IF HE BEAT NINO CAUSE NINO WAS BEATEN BY ARCHIE. DOESNT MATETR THAT NINO WAS 6'3 220 LBS. ARCHIE WAS THE BETTER CHALENGER. AND A PRIME CHARLES WAS NO MATCH FOR MARCIANO

Ezzard charles said "u know something marcianos a lot better than u peopele think." ezzard knows he got himself into the best shape of his life for oboth fights and he lost both and the 2nd convingsgly. in the 2nd fight in todays era, we would have gone to scorecards and marciano would have twechnial desicion. EZZARD CHARLES GOT HIMSELF BACK INTO HIS PRIM AGAINST MARCIANO. marciano refuesd to accept defeat, im sure he wouldnt let charles ever beaten him and rcoky was too strong and physical and powerful for charles. by the way marciano was 30 when he fought charles, mnarciano was fading marciano was at his best at 27 when he beat layne and louis. so marciano wasnt at his best. who knows if marciano had started eariler how good he would be at 24 25 26 fighting for the title. marciano got a late start butu underestimate how good he is. rocky is tough to outpoit over 15 rounds he just lands and throws to many punches hes the agressor. no way charles would beat him.

Nino had already been waiting for a shot for abour 2 years when he got the fight with Moore. You can't say that Charles was back in his prime just because he gave Rocky hell! thats just biased like a lot of things you say. I have fights of Charles from the late 40s and the man who fought Marciano was much slower and had to go toe to toe a lot while a peak Charles would have boxed a lot more.
These are facts?... how many fights have you seen of Charles???.

On the subject of Charles, I do think that Charles' performance against Marciano the first time was one of the best he ever gave. Many writers at the time would agree with me. Charles was generally past his best days. He had lost passion for fighting and was starting to go physically as well. His performances were declining.
HOWEVER, Charles had always been upset he had never been a popular and beloved champion. He viewed his shot at Marciano as his last chance to finally gain the recognition he had always craved, and he gained a hunger, intensity, and fighting passion unlike he had ever had before. This is well-documented, in fact.

Here, this is from page 219 of "The Rock of His Times:"
" In truth, it was his last chance- and everyone knew it. Charles seemed determined to take advantage of it as he trained for the bout at Monticello, several miles away from Marciano's camp at Grossinger's... This, then, was the 'new Charles,' a more focused and passionate fighter who had a fresh, unburdenced mental determination to go along with his established physical skills.

On page 225 of The Rock of His Times:
"As Wilfrid Smith observed, 'Charles unquestionably offered the greatest fight of his long career[against Marciano].' Charles was the man who rose to greater heights. "

This is what W.J. McGoogan of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch said about the first Marciano-Charles fight:
"He[Charles] fought a wonderful fight, possibly the best of his career of about seventeen years"

I think Charles went downhill for the rematch, though, which can be noted in his weight gain and the more one-sided nature of the fight(besides the freak cut).

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 30 May 2005, 20:22

..the writers who said ezzard's fight with marciano was the best of his career did not see charles when he was at his very very best....when he weighed 171 to 175. i did.

as for quoting charles about marciano...i talked to ezzard about those and other fights more than once. i'm wondering if brockton boy did the same with marciano. my guess is he would have to speak through a medium as i doubt if both were alive at the same time,

ezzard said (to me in person, to me on my radio show and to others) that marciano was not the best fighter he fought, nor the hardest puncher...but he was the strongest he ever faced.

he didn't bring up the injury he got from a blow to his adam's apple in the first fight ( a perfectly legal punch) was a factor in his loss because it would have sounded like an excuse, and he never liked to make them.

those in his corner...and others who saw him immediately after the fight, thought that punch was not a...but THE ...main factor in why he lost. he could hardly breathe in the later rounds...but...that was all so long ago.

both men had respect for each other as the years passed.....rocky said ezz was easily one of the greatest fighters ever and was generous at appearing at testimonial dinners for the ailing ezz...and ezz spoke well of him.....and regardless of who was past what prime etc.....they engaged in one of the most fiercely fought heavyweight title matches ever....an epic of courage by each.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 30 May 2005, 20:30

Good points Marcianofraiser and i liek the quoetes.

Barry, ur right baout some of those fighters. I think he would have beat all of them but i still would have wanted to see one of those fighters face him ratehr than don cockell. Roland Lastarza was i think better than most of those challengers and a pretty good boxer so he was a legit challenger but don cockell that fight should have never happened. MArciano didnt even want that fight, he got decked in a sparring session and found himself not training as hard. I think thats when the rock realized if he cant go to the gy and give it his all its time to go. and the archie moore fight gave him one last motivation. he was 32 and fading anyway.
TO ANSWER UR QEUSTION ABOUT Pierino marciano comments,
I dont know where u got this quote but I'' give my opinion what i thought he meant. Rock made a lot of sacrifices during fighting and he wasnt spending al ot of time with his wife and she was depresed about it. He was so busy training, and his training habits died down during the cockell fight, He wasnt motivated cause he knew cockell was a bum. I think nick slyvester said in his movie rocky really found out hard to go to the gym everyday and thats when he knew he should get out before he stayed one fight too long. NOw his father probably watched his son make huge sacfrices for osmething he didnt want anymore and it hurt rocks father ot watch his son do this and also al weill screwed rock out of money in cockell fight and rocky really couldnt put up with weill anymore and his dad wanted rock to leave cockell. Perino wanted rocky to spend more time with his family cause hes proven himself and he doesnt want it anymore and perino knew that and he wants rocky to stop punishing himself.

ROcky lost one fight in his career and that was too a plain. I wasnt alive then but im sure anyone who was and saw it on the news could tell it was a sad day for boxing fans. Rocky had a tough attitude though lol and earlier he and sonny were in a plane during a storm and sonny was scared it was gonna crash. he woke up rocky and rocky got pissed asaying "is that all u woke me up for, jesus christ son. if its ur time its ur time and theirs nothing u can do about it." and he went back to sleep. it wasnt his time then but i can picture the plain going down and rocky instead of worrying and crying just sitting their calmly ready to face death cause hes fearless.

barry · Post by **barry** » 30 May 2005, 21:05

Well, you hit the question pretty much on the head. The quote came from an interview from I think Ring mag, not sure I'd have to go back and see for sure. Rocky trained like no fighter ever had before, or after that I am aware of. Everything he did was well planned out. It was basically a three man show. Goldman did the training, Weill said who and where Rocky would fight and Rocky would just fight whoever Weill said, so I don't blame Marciano for the fights that he did not have, but like just about every other fighter in history, the manager had the say so. Weill did do one smart thing though during trainiong camps, which lasted for the most part at least two months for each fight, he always brought Rocky's best friend into the camps to keep the Rock from getting so homesick. Hell, when a fight was around 10, or 12 days away, Rock was not even allowed to speak with anyone on the phone, nor could he read any letters and he was never allowed to read newspapers until after a fight had occurred, which his management smartly did, so that no negative energies could work their way into Marciano's mind. There is no doubt about his dedication to boxing and being a world champion because his career was not like that of others who were allowed to be out on the town, but Weill and Goldman knew the limitations that Rocky had and they wanted to take no chances whatsoever, It was more like prison than training because he was always away from his family and often he would not see them for two solid months, so retiring I don't blkame he one bit. He did what he set out to do, which was win the title, make a bundle of money and retire undefeated, so after that was accomplished he had no reason to fight on and he didn't.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 31 May 2005, 10:54

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote: He wasnt motivated cause he knew cockell was a bum.

I have to disagree with that comment Don Cockell was a very good Light-Heavyweight who was forced to fight at Heavyweight due to a glandular problem that meant he cound not shift the weight off like he could in his younger days. I'm not saying he was great but he was a good fighter and definately NOT a bum.

He showed great heart in his fight against Marciano and soaked up a lot of punishment before being battered to defeat in the 9th.

'Bums' don't last 9 hard rounds with Rocky Marciano.