Modern Day Bare Knucklers

[HomicideHenry]

The thing about 'cowardice' is...that you can not control instincts
some times. You can be the toughest cat around, but when you
get rocked or dazed your body reacts not your mind.

Good conditioning, experience and alot of hard sparring help to
'steel' you against this reaction, but contray to what the cigar
smoking bar breaths who merely watch the sport think, when a
man turns side on to avoid blows, its not a matter of manliness.
Its the body kicking in when the mind is dazed, exhausted or
rocked.

I shall like to check this Sykes and Gardner bout.

Personally, I have reviewed the tape quite a few times, and have a different view on the fight. I dont think Sykes meant to turn away from Gardner. He was weaving under Gardner's blows and just happened to turn his body towards the referee and the ref jumped in automatically and stopped it. I thought it was a premature decision, if I do say so myself.

Sure Gardner would have eventually stopped Sykes, but I dont believe he would have done it at that moment or even in that round. Sykes was tough and well conditioned, and despite his mental makeup, he would have weathered the storm in that round imho. He was still in the fight. Was a bad call. But thats just me, am sure others will disagree with me, but to me it looked like Sykes was weaving and happened to turn his body towards the ref in the process of doing so, and the ref mistaken a tactical manuever for an "I quit, I've had enough" reaction.

[HomicideHenry]

I think Sykes was right then, because though he was out matched, he wasn't in serious danger. He was still in the fight and was weaving away from Gardner's punches. Re-watch the fight film, and you will see how quickly that referee jumped in the moment Sykes weaved away from Gardner.

[HomicideHenry]

I never understood kyms theory on instinct being a factor in sykes losing until i fought j'leon love february 25th, 2010. that first punch he landed felt like a gunshot cracked inside my head. without thinking i instantly jumped out of his range. it was the damndest thing, i didnt command my body to do anything but i jumped back anyways. it was my bodies instinct that did it. so maybe kym was right about sykes.

[Robinson]

HH

Unless you have been under fire and in a fight. You can never truely appreciate
such feelings.

That is why writers and arm chair experts are always going to be a
distant second to fighters opinions with me.

You can some times 'train' these instincts out of you. It is a case of self preservation
vs self pride. You have to have more pride in a fight, so that you are willing to
at times take the damage so as to get the win. Its a hard thing to fine. But you
will get it with experience.

Even at the elite level (sykes for example) you will see guys for whatever reason
let the instinct for survival take over. And some times... you will quit on yourself.

[CiganoBoxer]

How about a small tourney between all the guys previously mentioned in the thread?

Joe Savage vs Charles Bronson

Lenny McLean vs Bartley Gorman

Roy Shaw vs Lew Yates

Johnny Waldron vs Cliff Fields

Macale Merton vs Norman Buckland

IMO Bartley Gorman would of beat all these guys ....Gormans opposition would of been far higher...due to bare knuckle fighting being a travelers national sport lol
I was brought up with the storys of Bartley....my old man have told me many things about him....with no gloves he was one hell of a fighter !

[palooka]

Doncasters' Neil Malpass gave Paul Sykes a good 10 round fight (a draw) and still knocks em out; so does Malc Tetley who is no spring chicken either. Most of the top 'hard men' and gypsy fighters are not people to look up to; most love nothing more than throwing their weight about, being the centre of attention and spoiling a good day out.

[HomicideHenry]

I've thought long and hard on Louis L'Amour's alleged boxing career, and its occured to me the alleged 59-60 fights of L'Amour's career may have come from straight up cash fights, rather than professional bouts. Such things occured on a regular basis here in America and still to this day, albeit most of it is the bare knuckle street fight lack of skill style. Just because someone has no record doesnt mean they didnt have a fighting career; hell this thread proves that 100% with the McLean's and Gorman's and Shaw's among others.

This rings of DIGGSTOWN...

http://www.zazzle.com/diggstown_honey_r ... 2393690936

[Darling]

Saw a documentary on bouncers the other week.

Can't recall the name but it must be 10 years old so some of you will have seen it.

Most of it was shite but there were some good interviews with a guy who was trying to make a better life for his mother and his kid and some good stuff from a dude who did the hiring and firing. But the best part was several interviews with Lenny McLean.

He came across as a very witty and bright guy. And when he did a bit of shadow boxing he moved very fast for a man of his physique.

Still, I'd pick a peak Paul Sykes to put them all down and out in seconds.

[Expug]

Darling,I believe that documentary is called"Behind The Velvet Rope".
I remember seeing it a decade or so ago.
I agree about Lenny.Very entertaining.There was an Irish guy who recited a poem at the end also.
The guy was an entertaining character also.

[CiganoBoxer]

Theres a film being made about Bartley Gormans life next year...its being made by Shane meadows the film maker that brought us this is England and dead mans shoes ....so it should be to bad

[Darling]

expug, yes that is the one.

The Irish guy was likeable too. He'd seen it all.

For obvious reasons, I didn't like the big mutant who said he did it because he liked hitting people.

And those twins. They were a couple of simpletons.

The Black Prince was a real diamond though.

[HomicideHenry]

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!


Speaking of these modern day bareknucklers, I am actually working on doing a 'modernized' London Prized Ring rules bout, using 8oz gloves, but all the other rules remain intact. It will be done for 'exhibition' purposes only. Thats just one of the many ideas I have for 2011.

[DavidUK]

John Fury was recently sentenced to 11 years in prison for blinding a man in a fight at a car auction

[TMC]

[/quote]

My understanding of the Doncaster incident is that Gorman was due to fight local man, Danny Shenton, at the St.Leger race meeting in September '76. However, the fight never happened as Shenton refused to go ahead when he realised a mob, led by the Gaskins - another travelling family, were out to kill Gorman. Which, I believe, they very nearly did. Shenton, incidentally, was another top bare knuckle man of the '70s and '80s - a very powerful and fearsome man. Not to be crossed.[/quote]

Actually, Danny Shenton came with Bartley Gorman to the site in Doncaster looking for Bob Gaskin, and the reason he was mobbed was because they came on the camp screaming "we will kill all the men and sh*g all the women "

So Bob gaskin blind sided him and they hand no intention of letting them leave alive, bartley crawled to the car and as he was trying to get in some one trapped his keg in the far door and hacked it to bits...

Hope this helps ,

[HomicideHenry]

During Christmas time I was given Gorman's book as a present, and found it very informative of the past bare knuckle fighters in Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland. Gorman's own career was quite documented, as he gave newspaper accounts and dates for anyone to look up for themselves. What I find most interesting is that Gorman could have taken the road less traveled and been a professional boxer, for he had the support and backing of some rather well respected trainers and backers in glove boxing, but chose not to do it because the travellers/gypsies talked him out of doing it because they felt it was beneath him by fighting in novice tournaments, etc. According to boxing contender Roger Barlow (who Gorman almost kayoed in a two round sparring session), Gorman could have easily become a top man in Europe if not the world. But even Gorman admitted in his own book that his brother Sam Gorman and Johnny Frankham were the top travelling men, and then he was.

[HomicideHenry]

Speaking of modern BKB men, I am good friends with Bobby "The Celtic Warrior" Gunn, who holds the distinction of being the first man to hold a BKB championship since Sullivan (under a sanctioning body). Unfortunately for Bobby, alot of the so called hard men from Ireland, England, Canada, etc i.e. James Quinn McDonagh have refused to meet him in the ring under any circumstances. I am convinced, even though Bobby isnt a top pro glover, that he could reign for a long time as a BKB champion because there simply isnt no real formidable competition willing to fight him.

[HomicideHenry]

When I get the time I will write out a complete official list of bare knuckle champions and contenders and the regions they were recognised from 1900-Present, following what information I have from books I have purchased and accounts told by me from witnesses. The list, of course, is mostly of bkb men from Europe. America is a tad bit sketchier to follow over almost any course of time.

[HomicideHenry]

Oh and btw, ROY SHAW has just passed away. R.I.P. champion

[bollox]

Was Roy a hero or a complete nutter? (or both?)

[hhaehre]

Was Roy a hero or a complete nutter? (or both?)

A thug who had a few unlicensed fights in his forties after a lengthy stay in prison. Revered as a hero by some for reasons unknown to me.

[Tomasino]

When I get the time I will write out a complete official list of bare knuckle champions and contenders and the regions they were recognised from 1900-Present, following what information I have from books I have purchased and accounts told by me from witnesses. The list, of course, is mostly of bkb men from Europe. America is a tad bit sketchier to follow over almost any course of time.

Complete and official. Sounds very authoritative. I look forward to reading this list.

I notice in Barltleys book, there were a lot of other, very tough, gypsy kings all fighting each other. Such as the Dochertys, Joyce, Rooney and McGinly families. Barltley never fought anyone of the other great fighters of his day and in the book the guys he fights were mostly rough brawlers in pubs, with "the title" on the line. Most great fighters are judged on their competition not just a word of mouth rep. No doubts Bartley could scrap but it's laughable some of the things he said about boxing being a novices game etc.

[HomicideHenry]

No what he said was that the gypsies talked him out of joining a novice pro boxing tournament that was being put on in Wales. Bartley in his book said that he used amateur boxing to hone his abilities in bare knuckle boxing; he had much respect for glove boxing. It was his culture that held him back.

[bollox]

I highly suspect that all modern day knucklers are unskilled brawlers when compared to boxers. Roy Shaw said that if Ron Stander had not been pissing it up, was fit, and didn't have a broken rib he (Stander) would have "mullered me"

McLean was twice beaten by a guy who I think had been an average Lightheavy amateur...can't think of his name

[The Insider]

I highly suspect that all modern day knucklers are unskilled brawlers when compared to boxers. Roy Shaw said that if Ron Stander had not been pissing it up, was fit, and didn't have a broken rib he (Stander) would have "mullered me"

McLean was twice beaten by a guy who I think had been an average Lightheavy amateur...can't think of his name

I believe it was Johnny Waldron? He was an ex pro I think.

[bollox]

I highly suspect that all modern day knucklers are unskilled brawlers when compared to boxers. Roy Shaw said that if Ron Stander had not been pissing it up, was fit, and didn't have a broken rib he (Stander) would have "mullered me"

McLean was twice beaten by a guy who I think had been an average Lightheavy amateur...can't think of his name

I believe it was Johnny Waldron? He was an ex pro I think.

I stand corrected, thanks. Former Lightheavy pro beats The Guv'nor pretty easily