Alvarez & early records of fighters without amateur careers

[johnswan1]

For such a highly rated prospect, the early career of Alvarez does not seem to be the most impressive on paper. Granted he turned pro aged only 15 years old, three fights stand out:

1) In his third fight against an opponent making his debut he won a split decision over four rounds, with one judge having him winning just one round. However, the opponent, Miguel Vazquez, built up an 18-1 record after that before dropping a wide UD to another prospect, 20-0 Tim Bradley in 2007. Bradley in his next fight went on to beat Witter for the WBC title. Vazquez later had a rematch with 19-0-1 Alvarez in 2008 which he lost (no record of scores on here), and has since become the first man to beat 21-0 Breidis Prescott. Alvarez and Bradley remain the only men to have beaten him.

2) In his fifth fight against an opponent with a record of 3-5, he only drew. Again, one of the judges had him winning a single round. A rematch never occurred, but Jorge Juarez now holds an 8-17-3 record.

3) In 2008, he came with a record of 16-0-1 against 5-17-2 Francisco Villanueva. Two fights earlier he had beaten Villanueva by 9th round stoppage. This time he managed a tenth round split decision.

Is there too much emphasis put on career records of young fighters, particularly those without amateur experience?

Would Alvarez still be such a highly touted prospect if his record read 15-3 through his first eighteen fights? It seems that each of the above three fights could easily have gone against him.

At what point did he become known as a Mexican sensation and touted as one of the brightest prospects in the sport?

What other big name fighters in recent history lost fights early in their careers (say at least 3 of first 20) before going on to become Hall of Fame bound?

[johnswan1]

Here's one to start off. Unlikely to be Hall of Fame bound, but Antonio Margarito went into his thirteenth fight with a 9-3 record.

[johnswan1]

And another - not for the Hall of Fame, but Johnny Nelson went into his twelfth fight with a 6-5 record.

Maybe I should expand this to World Champions with title defences.

[ourkid1984]

Didn't Pac man lose early in his career?

But granted somr of these fighters from south and central America do have bloated records that look far better than they are having said that Alvarez have recently beat some very good boxers. Would he even had the chance if some of those close decisions went against him, I doubt it but the big prospect mark would just fall to someone else.

[Scottrf]

What other big name fighters in recent history lost fights early in their careers (say at least 3 of first 20) before going on to become Hall of Fame bound?[/b]

Billy Conn, Henry Armstrong, Carmen Basilio, Rocky Graziano, Joe Walcott, Victor Galindez to name a few, but there are loads.

[johnswan1]

What other big name fighters in recent history lost fights early in their careers (say at least 3 of first 20) before going on to become Hall of Fame bound?[/b]

Billy Conn, Henry Armstrong, Carmen Basilio, Rocky Graziano, Joe Walcott, Victor Galindez to name a few, but there are loads.

Recent history. Let's say 80's onwards. The fascination with undefeated records seems to be more of a thing of the past couple of decades so more kudos to find them from that era.

[Scottrf]

Naturally wont find too many in that timescale because they have to have 5 years retirement before they even get a chance to be voted in. Steve Robinson was a world champion who managed to defend a few times, was little more than a journeyman before that. Hagler lost a couple of fights before ever really getting noticed, albeit to decent opposition, Pacquiao had some early losses to substandard opponents.

[johnswan1]

Naturally wont find too many in that timescale because they have to have 5 years retirement before they even get a chance to be voted in. Steve Robinson was a world champion who managed to defend a few times, was little more than a journeyman before that. Hagler lost a couple of fights before ever really getting noticed, albeit to decent opposition, Pacquiao had some early losses to substandard opponents.

Pac was 21-1 going into his second defeat.

Hagler was 25-0-1 before he lost.

Steve Robinson is a very good one. He was 13-9-1 going into the fight he won for the Vacant WBO title. His opponent was 15-3. I don't think the WBO title carried as much weight back in 1993 as it does now, but he did successfully defend it seven times before he fought Naz.

[Scottrf]

I knew they didn't fit the numbers exactly but just some general examples of early losses not meaning much. You wouldn't accept my ones that fitted the bill!

[johnswan1]

I knew they didn't fit the numbers exactly but just some general examples of early losses not meaning much. You wouldn't accept my ones that fitted the bill!

Because they didn't fit the bill. I said recent history. By recent I didn't mean from when record keeping first began.

[Scottrf]

By modern I thought you meant gloved boxing, showing my age

[johnswan1]

By modern I thought you meant gloved boxing, showing my age

No worries!

[Jeff Thomas]

Good call records are for DJ's.

Paul Burke
Michael Gomez
Carl Thompson
Crawford Ashley
Emanual Augustus
Freddie Pendleton

Good, good fighters- with non perfect records. There's millions more examples. MMA once again have got this little thing right.

Floyd Mayweather retires with a 42-0 record or whatever he is now?? He'll have less credability then if he lost to pac for me. Same way Calzaghe constantly gets called into question on his record. I think being undefeated brings more scrutiny then if you have a couple of losses.

[gb]

Humberto Soto was 14-4-2 at one point.

[gb]

Mayorga was also 8-3 after 11.

[palooka]

The majestic hitter Ensley Bingham was 6 wins 5 losses with 3 losses inside the distance after 11 bouts and what a fighter he turned into!

[palooka]

And Steve Foster Snr was 5 wins 9 losses (2 inside) and a draw from 15 bouts; he developed and grew into a well schooled, strong and determined box fighter, a good European champ for sure.

[palooka]

On a lower level than those 2; (stop me if you want) Jimmy Vincent; who got within a hairsbreadth of the British Welterweight title was 10 wins 6 losses from his first 16; that included 2 runs of 4 bouts unbeaten and a bout against the best, most stylish boxer I've seen in the flesh - Peter Gabbitus.

A lad who beat Peter - Sugar Gibiliru was 7 wins/ 26 losses/ 6 draws before he hit his stride and he; again; became a very tough, well schooled, fit and game box fighter who won an area title and contested the Commonwealth. He was a good lad.

[bh8667]

Not the greatest but Carlos Baldomir was 19-5-3