Hopkins-Calzaghe... With hindsight

[observer1]

nah disagree with you there mate. I think payne has called it right - if hopkins had come out to fight he would have lost clearly, and thats at any point in his career.

The other thing to remember is Calzaghe was a SMW not a LH and was far better SMW. The only person i think that would have ever stood a chance against a prime JC is RJJ.

And i've said it before i would have tipped JC to win at SMW and RJJ to win a LH. Many people disagree but i dont think there is any way to argue a clear victor.

Dude... Joe was not even a natural SMW. He was only there due to the awful competition there.

As a matter of fact, he would starve himself before the weigh in, sometimes going 2 days straight without Food just to make the 168 Limit

He would have been far more comfortable at 175 than he was at 168.

Funny you should say the only person to stand a chance against a "Prime Calzaghe" at SMW would be RJJ. Tell me the, when was Joe at his Prime? When he faced Brewer? Or when he faced Pidwell? Or maybe when it was Bika?
Maybe the dude who was in that reality TV Show? What's his name? Manfrodo? The same dude who is now who earns a living as a cleaner?

Sorry, but the only people who give Joe any credibility are Brits

You use the word dude alot. everything else you wrote either showed a distinct lack of knowledge or was tripe.

Care to highlight which bits? If you're wondering about the misspelling of the opponents he faced, it was merely tongue-in-cheek.

Sorry dude, but i've followed alot of your posts, and you're just a typical fanboy for British boxers.
No better than the Pacquaio and Mayweather fanboys that plague every boxing forum.

If you want to discuss boxing then do so. If you merely want to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you, then i suggest you run along with the rest of your 13 year old friends

[Finn]

Dude... Joe was not even a natural SMW. He was only there due to the awful competition there.

As a matter of fact, he would starve himself before the weigh in, sometimes going 2 days straight without Food just to make the 168 Limit

He would have been far more comfortable at 175 than he was at 168.

Funny you should say the only person to stand a chance against a "Prime Calzaghe" at SMW would be RJJ. Tell me the, when was Joe at his Prime? When he faced Brewer? Or when he faced Pidwell? Or maybe when it was Bika?
Maybe the dude who was in that reality TV Show? What's his name? Manfrodo? The same dude who is now who earns a living as a cleaner?

Sorry, but the only people who give Joe any credibility are Brits

You use the word dude alot. everything else you wrote either showed a distinct lack of knowledge or was tripe.

Care to highlight which bits? If you're wondering about the misspelling of the opponents he faced, it was merely tongue-in-cheek.

Sorry dude, but i've followed alot of your posts, and you're just a typical fanboy for British boxers.
No better than the Pacquaio and Mayweather fanboys that plague every boxing forum.

If you want to discuss boxing then do so. If you merely want to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you, then i suggest you run along with the rest of your 13 year old friends

Yep thats me, you'll notice the only people i've given credit too are Haye and calzaghe. Calzaghe the super middle weight, not calzaghe the "should have been a LH".

Every other thing i have said about british boxers have been spot on and in most cases ended up being proven. Or said in direct contradiction to silly statements from fan boys.

Calzaghe was the iconic smw thats a fact.

He was at his peak around 2000 - 2005, the level of competition he fought at that time has no reflection on when he peaked. He fought better opposition and won, humiliatingly in some cases - when he couldnt hit with the same power anymore.

Your point about how he wasnt a natural super middle is mute, since he was clearly far superior at that weight than LH.

Sorry, but the only people who give Joe any credibility are Brits

This statement shows your caliber.

[observer1]

You use the word dude alot. everything else you wrote either showed a distinct lack of knowledge or was tripe.

Care to highlight which bits? If you're wondering about the misspelling of the opponents he faced, it was merely tongue-in-cheek.

Sorry dude, but i've followed alot of your posts, and you're just a typical fanboy for British boxers.
No better than the Pacquaio and Mayweather fanboys that plague every boxing forum.

If you want to discuss boxing then do so. If you merely want to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you, then i suggest you run along with the rest of your 13 year old friends

Yep thats me, you'll notice the only people i've given credit too are Haye and calzaghe. Calzaghe the super middle weight, not calzaghe the "should have been a LH".

Every other thing i have said about british boxers have been spot on and in most cases ended up being proven. Or said in direct contradiction to silly statements from fan boys.

Calzaghe was the iconic smw thats a fact.

He was at his peak around 2000 - 2005, the level of competition he fought at that time has no reflection on when he peaked. He fought better opposition and won, humiliatingly in some cases - when he couldnt hit with the same power anymore.

Your point about how he wasnt a natural super middle is mute, since he was clearly far superior at that weight than LH.

Sorry, but the only people who give Joe any credibility are Brits

This statement shows your caliber.

Then tell me when why, when he was at his peak, he decided to stay in the UK? When every other Boxer, when they were in their peak and, in some cases not in the peak, travelled abroad i.e. Lewis, Naz, Hatton and even Haye etc.

I'm not saying he wasn't the best at SMW. He was, but the SMW Pool was tragic. Even then, he was content with holding on to the WBO belt for much of his "reign" at SMW.

Whereas any other half decent boxer moved up to other weight-classes upon becoming the "best" at their weightclass.
Joe however, refused to do so, even it meant punishing himself ridiculously to make the SMW limit.

And yes, Joe's critics are far and wide, both in Britain and outside of it. Whereas the overwhelming majority of Joe's Fan base is in Wales and in England.
Anyone who criticizes him according to them is either
i.e Anti - British if their an outside Britain.

Don't know anything about boxing if their inside Britain

It's time you smelt the gravy mate, he wasted his career fighting Little Risk for Average Reward. It's his life, his choice, but i won't buy the "Legend" card for a second.

[gobbles]

FI though Hopkins won the first 5 rounds + a knoockdown in the first. Dont see how Calazghe won that fight to be honest (Didnt watch it from round 6 onwards, had choppy eye killing stream so ducked off to bed)

For starters he lost the 4th round. How can you seriously give any opinion of a fight where you watched only five of 12 rounds and even admit that it was a choppy stream?

As for Observer's "only people who give him credit are Brits" line - didn't HBO have him five rounds up and all their team agreed he won easily.
Two American judges made him the winner of that fight too, as did the vast majority of their media.

Joe was obviously a natural super-middle when he won the title but he held it 11 years, so it gets harder. But then Observer's contributions on Calzaghe and his belief that he could read his mind and knew what he was thinking got tired years ago.

[Finn]

Care to highlight which bits? If you're wondering about the misspelling of the opponents he faced, it was merely tongue-in-cheek.

Sorry dude, but i've followed alot of your posts, and you're just a typical fanboy for British boxers.
No better than the Pacquaio and Mayweather fanboys that plague every boxing forum.

If you want to discuss boxing then do so. If you merely want to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you, then i suggest you run along with the rest of your 13 year old friends

Yep thats me, you'll notice the only people i've given credit too are Haye and calzaghe. Calzaghe the super middle weight, not calzaghe the "should have been a LH".

Every other thing i have said about british boxers have been spot on and in most cases ended up being proven. Or said in direct contradiction to silly statements from fan boys.

Calzaghe was the iconic smw thats a fact.

He was at his peak around 2000 - 2005, the level of competition he fought at that time has no reflection on when he peaked. He fought better opposition and won, humiliatingly in some cases - when he couldnt hit with the same power anymore.

Your point about how he wasnt a natural super middle is mute, since he was clearly far superior at that weight than LH.

Sorry, but the only people who give Joe any credibility are Brits

This statement shows your caliber.

Then tell me when why, when he was at his peak, he decided to stay in the UK? When every other Boxer, when they were in their peak and, in some cases not in the peak, travelled abroad i.e. Lewis, Naz, Hatton and even Haye etc.

I'm not saying he wasn't the best at SMW. He was, but the SMW Pool was tragic. Even then, he was content with holding on to the WBO belt for much of his "reign" at SMW.

Whereas any other half decent boxer moved up to other weight-classes upon becoming the "best" at their weightclass.
Joe however, refused to do so, even it meant punishing himself ridiculously to make the SMW limit.

And yes, Joe's critics are far and wide, both in Britain and outside of it. Whereas the overwhelming majority of Joe's Fan base is in Wales and in England.
Anyone who criticizes him according to them is either
i.e Anti - British if their an outside Britain.

Don't know anything about boxing if their inside Britain

It's time you smelt the gravy mate, he wasted his career fighting Little Risk for Average Reward. It's his life, his choice, but i won't buy the "Legend" card for a second.

lol basically you've just written a rant about something you obviously have issues over - where in my above post have i put anything relating to your comments?

I said i dont think anyone would have beaten him at super middle when he was in his prime? and by all account you're agreeing with me.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to what i have written.

Should he have fought better opposition - yes! Should he have moved up a weight? i dont think so, he was reliant on his speed which is why he didnt move up, he was clearly slower at LH when he did.

The fact that he didnt fight better fighters has no bearing on how good he was, he was elite.

If the SMW division had Froch, AA, Bute, Dirrell, Ward, Pavlik, Taylor, and kessler in it when he was at his peak - he would have beaten them all. He beat kessler when he was past his peak. He was more unlucky that it was a shit division when he was lording it. Theres also fighters that as soon as calzaghe retired suddenly started fighting at smw.

[observer1]

lol basically you've just written a rant about something you obviously have issues over - where in my above post have i put anything relating to your comments?

I said i dont think anyone would have beaten him at super middle when he was in his prime? and by all account you're agreeing with me.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to what i have written.

[Refer to Quote Below]

I was referring to comment where you said He'd beat Hopkins "at anypoint in his career". Not the SMW bit you said.

I disagree, infact i feel even Calzaghe doesn't share the same view you do. Since he stayed in the UK fighting below-par opposition, even if it meant him starving himself to make the SMW weight.




Should he have fought better opposition - yes! Should he have moved up a weight? i dont think so, he was reliant on his speed which is why he didnt move up, he was clearly slower at LH when he did.

He was never really a fast handed boxer. His asset was volume punching. He had a very high work-rate, which is what helped him. Only reason he looked slow at LH is because even an old RJJ and Old Hopkins were faster than the opposition he faced.

As i mentioned earlier, it would have suited him more at LHW if it meant he never had to starve himself to make weight, just like any other Boxer/Human Being

The fact that he didnt fight better fighters has no bearing on how good he was, he was elite.

Therefore, by that Logic, Svenn Ottke is an Elite SMW Boxer too?

If the SMW division had Froch, AA, Bute, Dirrell, Ward, Pavlik, Taylor, and kessler in it when he was at his peak - he would have beaten them all. He beat kessler when he was past his peak. He was more unlucky that it was a shit division when he was lording it. Theres also fighters that as soon as calzaghe retired suddenly started fighting at smw.

That's your opinion, , my opinion is that a few of those guys would beat Joe. Reason i say is the momen he stepped in class, even if it was small, he struggle i.e. Against a 43 year old Hopkins. Andre Ward and Direll would have had a field day with him in that case

So he was past his best when he beat Kessler? Then we can argue that Kessler had a serious Hand injury that affected both his training and performance.

nah disagree with you there mate. I think payne has called it right - if hopkins had come out to fight he would have lost clearly, and thats at any point in his career.

The other thing to remember is Calzaghe was a SMW not a LH and was far better SMW. The only person i think that would have ever stood a chance against a prime JC is RJJ.

And i've said it before i would have tipped JC to win at SMW and RJJ to win a LH. Many people disagree but i dont think there is any way to argue a clear victor.

But i reckon you're response is going to be along the lines of "I like Calzaghe, therefore any criticism is wrong"

[Max Molyneux]

Hopkins after the 1st Kd hardly did anything except cry foul, foul or fake that he was hurt by fowls. Don't know why anyone thought he won. Joe looked bad but he still won and it would of been a robbery if Hopkins got the decision.

[crusader]

^^ I agree. I have watched it a few times and cannot see a Hopkins win. I though Calzaghe won by a wide margin.

[Twinkle Toes]

When it comes to Calzaghe, Obsever is guilty of what he moans about when people knock Khan - I'll let you work it out.

[Ezzard]

Joe had an infuriating career but the win over Hopkins has to be considered excellent considering what had gone on before and after.

[stujones]

Now the one point I will argue about is this "Calzaghe had no power in his later career" - or put another way Calzaghe "lost" his power.

Where is the evidence of this great power between 2000-2005? Brewer didn't have the toughest of chins - Calzaghe didn't KO him. Joe scored some KO's yes, but alot of them were a tad on the controvesial side, and tended to be more commulative affect with the fighter still on his feet protesting. Plus - you need to take into account the level of opposition here... the likes of Mario Veit, Will McIntyre, Pudwill etc are not exactly elite level.

I'm not saying the injuries didn't take their toll, off course they did - but it wasn't like he went from Dynamite power, to nothing over night. People mention the fact he didn't stop lacy as a sign his power was dimishing. I disagree, it was as controvesial that the Lacy fight continued as say the Mitchell or Manfredo fight got stopped.

[Captain Hook]

Some absolutely atrocious anti-Calzaghe posts on here full of ifs, buts and maybes....

He beat Hopkins, who, like he did for much of his career, spent more time bitching, moaning and fouling than fighting.

When he did fight he was superb, one of the best, and when he didn't he was the one who was infuriating, not JC.

And Calzaghe was elite for 22 minutes of his career?! That obviously doesn't include the Lacy clinic then, which was doube that length of time on its own?

Too many ill-informed and ignorant comments to spend time going through them all, but the majority are typical Boxrec these days....

[Captain Hook]

Now the one point I will argue about is this "Calzaghe had no power in his later career" - or put another way Calzaghe "lost" his power.

Where is the evidence of this great power between 2000-2005? Brewer didn't have the toughest of chins - Calzaghe didn't KO him. Joe scored some KO's yes, but alot of them were a tad on the controvesial side, and tended to be more commulative affect with the fighter still on his feet protesting. Plus - you need to take into account the level of opposition here... the likes of Mario Veit, Will McIntyre, Pudwill etc are not exactly elite level.

I'm not saying the injuries didn't take their toll, off course they did - but it wasn't like he went from Dynamite power, to nothing over night. People mention the fact he didn't stop lacy as a sign his power was dimishing. I disagree, it was as controvesial that the Lacy fight continued as say the Mitchell or Manfredo fight got stopped.

Before Eubank he was known as something of a knockout specialist, and on putting the granite chinned fella down within seconds of the opening bell that image continued.

His hands let him down in the end. I believe he had decent power, they just wouldn't let him express it so he changed his style and was more of a 'slapper', as people refer to him.

[Captain Hook]

Before Eubank he had 22 fights and 21 were finished early.....

[stujones]

Before Eubank he had 22 fights and 21 were finished early.....

Before his first fight with McDermott, Tyson Fury had a 100% stoppage record. All about level's - plenty of fighters look like power punchers at the low level, but cannot take that power up. This was clearly apparent with Joe - I've often tried to find out from Joe fans when did he exactly "lose" his power - I never get a clear response. His record for clean KO's after the Eubank fight isn't fantastic... so was the power on the wane in 1997? Just when was his prime?

Joe's "slapping" tag was actually mentioned before Eubank fight.

He caught Chris with a beauty mind.

[Deserter]

Before Eubank he had 22 fights and 21 were finished early.....

Before his first fight with McDermott, Tyson Fury had a 100% stoppage record. All about level's - plenty of fighters look like power punchers at the low level, but cannot take that power up. This was clearly apparent with Joe - I've often tried to find out from Joe fans when did he exactly "lose" his power - I never get a clear response. His record for clean KO's after the Eubank fight isn't fantastic... so was the power on the wane in 1997? Just when was his prime?

Joe's "slapping" tag was actually mentioned before Eubank fight.

He caught Chris with a beauty mind.

Stu, you can actually see the change in the way Joe fought because of the hands issue - look at the Jones fight to see how he didn't load up at all compared to earlier in his career despite Jones clearly being virtually out on his feet for the last few rounds. That wasn't a stamina issue on Joe's part or due to the higher calibre of opponent, it was clearly because he just couldn't 'let them go' in the same way.
Eubank is on the record very clearly as saying how heavy-handed Joe was.

[stujones]

When was this change though, before Brewer? Before Starie when?

[DavidPayne]

Its degenerative. Not a single moment in time.

[Captain Hook]

When was this change though, before Brewer? Before Starie when?

Only Calzaghe can answer that question, like David says it was a process not an immediate change after Thornberry or Starie or Pudwill or even Eubank....

It was degenerative.

That said, even with this hampering him he was still superby effective against world class opposition.

Ok there were bums like the aforementioned Thornberry and Evans Ashira, but he beat him with one hand.....

[forcefraser]

I'll agree to disagree that Jones vs Joe prime for prime would have been particularly close.

Me too, prime for prime, Jones would have beaten him handsomely. Speed, power, desire. Terrific fighter when at his very best.

[stujones]

Very true, all ifs buts and maybe's. I aint disputing Joe didn't have hand trouble and it didn't hamper him. However, I do think alot of the things fans put down to hand troubles was in part, due to the increase in opposition level. There seems to be a school of thought that if it was a prime Joe Calzaghe he would KO many more of his opponents later on.... nothing to really suggest that, with the possible exception of Jones - I personally believe that Kessler post Joe isn't the same fighter, and that has done somewhat a SLIGHTLY damaging affect to Joe's legacy.... but one thing he has got is a cast iron chin. Lacy also, he takes his whacks. I actually think Joe fought Lacy at the best point of his career, cause he was definately a better thinking fighter at the later end of his career. Absolute war with Brewer, one of the most underated contests in British boxing history, but Joe didn't fight smart and if Joe couldn't KO Brewer in 2002 - I don't see where he can KO Lacy at any point of his career. Well, he should have got the stoppage anyway - but I hope you get what I mean.

Not even Hamed could KO them as quickly when he stepped it up (all of the time anyway).

I think it is quite irrelevant for this conversation though, cause we are talking Bernard Hopkins here - I don't think the man as ever been hurt in his career and he has faced some muderous punchers in his time.

The Jones "fight" sadly was nothing short of a joke. Not trying to be "anti" Joe here, but that fight stank of something a little bit fishy. Between Roy just doing nothing when he had Joe hurt and then Joe standing off when Jones was out on his feet. Its not a hindsight comment, even my mates down the pub where saying somethings not right watching the 24/7. Jones' prep was play sparring with a fat mate!

[gobbles]

Very true, all ifs buts and maybe's. I aint disputing Joe didn't have hand trouble and it didn't hamper him. However, I do think alot of the things fans put down to hand troubles was in part, due to the increase in opposition level. There seems to be a school of thought that if it was a prime Joe Calzaghe he would KO many more of his opponents later on.... nothing to really suggest that, with the possible exception of Jones - I personally believe that Kessler post Joe isn't the same fighter, and that has done somewhat a SLIGHTLY damaging affect to Joe's legacy.... but one thing he has got is a cast iron chin. Lacy also, he takes his whacks. I actually think Joe fought Lacy at the best point of his career, cause he was definately a better thinking fighter at the later end of his career. Absolute war with Brewer, one of the most underated contests in British boxing history, but Joe didn't fight smart and if Joe couldn't KO Brewer in 2002 - I don't see where he can KO Lacy at any point of his career. Well, he should have got the stoppage anyway - but I hope you get what I mean.

Not even Hamed could KO them as quickly when he stepped it up (all of the time anyway).

I think it is quite irrelevant for this conversation though, cause we are talking Bernard Hopkins here - I don't think the man as ever been hurt in his career and he has faced some muderous punchers in his time.

The Jones "fight" sadly was nothing short of a joke. Not trying to be "anti" Joe here, but that fight stank of something a little bit fishy. Between Roy just doing nothing when he had Joe hurt and then Joe standing off when Jones was out on his feet. Its not a hindsight comment, even my mates down the pub where saying somethings not right watching the 24/7. Jones' prep was play sparring with a fat mate!

So you are saying that Jones (who is still boxing and even travelling to Australia to take a fight) willingly was humiliated by Calzaghe when he could have stopped him in the first round? You have seriously strange ideas

[Captain Hook]

..and it's not just about knocking guys out.

People are picking at his wins over Kessler, Hopkins and Lacy when at the time they were seen as 50/50 fights.

He beat all three of them and still doesn't get his props.

He was superb vs Kessler and Lacy, they were seen as massive tests and are now viewed as damaged goods (by some) in hindsight. Calzaghe can't win with some posters, it's the same for Khan.

Despite recurring hand trouble he beat every man ever put in front of him. That takes some doing.

[Glyn Leach]

In retrospect, I think Hopkins was one of the best wins of Calzaghe's career. For anyone to beat Hopkins looks more and more impressive the longer he goes on. But I wouldn't have wanted to see a rematch — it wasn't a particularly exciting fight and, had a rematch taken place within a year of the original, I'd have fancied the result to be the same, a tight win for JC. But Hopkins has an uncanny ability to break down an opponent's style — the possibility exists that while he couldn't get it quite right first time, second time around, with the experience of the first fight in the bank, he might have been able to turn the tables. But we'll never know — and I, for one, can live with that quite happily.

[Captain Hook]

Agreed

For too many fights Hopkins has done naff all and just expected to get the victory, and I've been pleased to see him lose at times, notably in the first Taylor fight.

When he beat Trinidad he fought for 12 rounds and was superb, but performances like that have been few and far between