From Holmes to Now!!!!!!!!

[Ezzard]

Vitali over Bowe? How?

Not much in it.

Bowe is more fluid and has more to his game. Vitali is much more reliable. Both men were giants but Vitali fought more intelligently.

I just picked Vitali's consistency.

The consistency of weak opposition?

I don't get Vitali being more reliable at all. How can you say he is much more reliable? Bowe would never quit in a fight, that much I can guarantee. In all honesty, I can't agree with any of this. He was consistently in better shape, that's the only edge I can see. Have to give Bowe talent, resume, toughness & versatility.

A cement chinned giant with a solid work ethic and high punch-output is a hard man to beat. Both Klits boys know exactly what their strengths are and are fully aware of their weaknesses. No advantage is too small and they stick to their game plans like a couple of zealots of the good book.

Bowe, on his best, is easier on the eye… But if he fought 100 nobodies he’d be out of shape for 75 of them. He could almost never stick to a fight plan and would always look to out-man his opponent, often to his detriment.

Bowe from Holyfield I was exceptional. After that he was all about diminishing returns.

Don’t get me wrong, I knew it would be a controversial pick. I don’t think there’s much in it.

Yes, he shouldn't have quit against Byrd (he would have won a rematch). That was one of the few errors he made in the ring. Bowe may have taken his beatings but if his career was being marked by a maths teacher there'd be more red than a Tarrentino film.

The versatility angle is right. But Bowe used his versatility against himself. VK always knows exactly what he has to do and rarely veers from the path.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Not much in it.

Bowe is more fluid and has more to his game. Vitali is much more reliable. Both men were giants but Vitali fought more intelligently.

I just picked Vitali's consistency.

The consistency of weak opposition?

I don't get Vitali being more reliable at all. How can you say he is much more reliable? Bowe would never quit in a fight, that much I can guarantee. In all honesty, I can't agree with any of this. He was consistently in better shape, that's the only edge I can see. Have to give Bowe talent, resume, toughness & versatility.

A cement chinned giant with a solid work ethic and high punch-output is a hard man to beat. Both Klits boys know exactly what their strengths are and are fully aware of their weaknesses. No advantage is too small and they stick to their game plans like a couple of zealots of the good book.

Bowe, on his best, is easier on the eye… But if he fought 100 nobodies he’d be out of shape for 75 of them. He could almost never stick to a fight plan and would always look to out-man his opponent, often to his detriment.

Bowe from Holyfield I was exceptional. After that he was all about diminishing returns.

Don’t get me wrong, I knew it would be a controversial pick. I don’t think there’s much in it.

Yes, he shouldn't have quit against Byrd (he would have won a rematch). That was one of the few errors he made in the ring. Bowe may have taken his beatings but if his career was being marked by a maths teacher there'd be more red than a Tarrentino film.

The versatility angle is right. But Bowe used his versatility against himself. VK always knows exactly what he has to do and rarely veers from the path.

And a fat out of shape Bowe would have no problems with anyone Vitali has ever fought sans Lewis. I don't have an issue with picking Vitali over Bowe in a mythical fight, though I would disagree. But ranking them I see no scenario where Vitali rates higher. He has no wins of note. What's his best win? Corrie Sanders? Talk about fat and out of shape.

I think you're making Vitali out to have a higher ring IQ than is actually the case. Did you watch Kevin Johnson lay on the ropes for 12 rounds? Why didn't he throw an uppercut or a body shot? What he has he uses very well, no argument there. But I can't toss aside porous opposition that easily. The one time he stepped up to the elite level, against another out of shape fighter, his face got mutilated.

[keithmoonhangover]

The consistency of weak opposition?

I don't get Vitali being more reliable at all. How can you say he is much more reliable? Bowe would never quit in a fight, that much I can guarantee. In all honesty, I can't agree with any of this. He was consistently in better shape, that's the only edge I can see. Have to give Bowe talent, resume, toughness & versatility.

A cement chinned giant with a solid work ethic and high punch-output is a hard man to beat. Both Klits boys know exactly what their strengths are and are fully aware of their weaknesses. No advantage is too small and they stick to their game plans like a couple of zealots of the good book.

Bowe, on his best, is easier on the eye… But if he fought 100 nobodies he’d be out of shape for 75 of them. He could almost never stick to a fight plan and would always look to out-man his opponent, often to his detriment.

Bowe from Holyfield I was exceptional. After that he was all about diminishing returns.

Don’t get me wrong, I knew it would be a controversial pick. I don’t think there’s much in it.

Yes, he shouldn't have quit against Byrd (he would have won a rematch). That was one of the few errors he made in the ring. Bowe may have taken his beatings but if his career was being marked by a maths teacher there'd be more red than a Tarrentino film.

The versatility angle is right. But Bowe used his versatility against himself. VK always knows exactly what he has to do and rarely veers from the path.

And a fat out of shape Bowe would have no problems with anyone Vitali has ever fought sans Lewis. I don't have an issue with picking Vitali over Bowe in a mythical fight, though I would disagree. But ranking them I see no scenario where Vitali rates higher. He has no wins of note. What's his best win? Corrie Sanders? Talk about fat and out of shape.

I think you're making Vitali out to have a higher ring IQ than is actually the case. Did you watch Kevin Johnson lay on the ropes for 12 rounds? Why didn't he throw an uppercut or a body shot? What he has he uses very well, no argument there. But I can't toss aside porous opposition that easily. The one time he stepped up to the elite level, against another out of shape fighter, his face got mutilated.

You not going to answer my question Saad. Yes or no answer. Did Bowe avoid Lewis?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I brought up Bowe avoiding Lewis. Forgive me for not seeing your stupid question sooner. I have you on ignore.

[Duran Fan]

Holmes
Lewis
Tyson
Holyfield
Bowe
Klitschko, V.
Klitschko, W.
Tucker
Douglas
Tubbs
Witherspoon
Dokes
Bruno
Thomas, P.
Weaver
Spinks, M.
Moorer
Page
Byrd
Berbick
Tua
Smith, BC
Cooney
Coetzee
Ruddock

You have Douglas way too high!

[keithmoonhangover]

I brought up Bowe avoiding Lewis. Forgive me for not seeing your stupid question sooner. I have you on ignore.

If I'm on ignore, how do you know what I'm posting. What a numpty!

[Duran Fan]

Holmes
Lewis
Tyson
Holyfield
Bowe
Klitschko, V.
Klitschko, W.
Tucker
Douglas
Tubbs
Witherspoon
Dokes
Bruno
Thomas, P.
Weaver
Spinks, M.
Moorer
Page
Byrd
Berbick
Tua
Smith, BC
Cooney
Coetzee
Ruddock

I think you're underrated Coetzee (assuming that list is in order).

Coetzee deserved the decision over Snipes (even if it wasn't a 10 point must system, Coetzee probably won 6-3-1 or 7-3).

Coetzee deserved the decision over Thomas (a draw was reasonable).

Coetzee gave prime Tate a tough fight.

Coetzee gave prime Weaver a tough fight before the TKO.

Coetzee KO'd a prime Dokes.

I'll make my list later.

Agreed, I'd also have Tubbs in the bottom 3 of that list. Mercer should be on it, Rahman was better than Tua. All in all it's pretty solid imo.

For me

Holmes
Holyfield
Lewis
Tyson
Bowe
Witherspoon
Moorer
Wlad
Vitali
Spinks

You have Moorer way too high!

[Duran Fan]

Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Wlad
Vitaly
Holyfield
Bowe
Witherspoon
Thomas
Tubbs

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I brought up Bowe avoiding Lewis. Forgive me for not seeing your stupid question sooner. I have you on ignore.

If I'm on ignore, how do you know what I'm posting. What a numpty!

Sadly, it doesn't wipe you out of existence. If I don't log on first, I still see your rubbish. I'll answer a question from anyone Mugabi.

Bowe being ahead of Tyson is much closer than Vitali over Bowe.

[keithmoonhangover]

I brought up Bowe avoiding Lewis. Forgive me for not seeing your stupid question sooner. I have you on ignore.

If I'm on ignore, how do you know what I'm posting. What a numpty!

Sadly, it doesn't wipe you out of existence. If I don't log on first, I still see your rubbish. I'll answer a question from anyone Mugabi.

Bowe being ahead of Tyson is much closer than Vitali over Bowe.

If you're ignoring me, why are you still responding?

[Ezzard]

The consistency of weak opposition?

I don't get Vitali being more reliable at all. How can you say he is much more reliable? Bowe would never quit in a fight, that much I can guarantee. In all honesty, I can't agree with any of this. He was consistently in better shape, that's the only edge I can see. Have to give Bowe talent, resume, toughness & versatility.

A cement chinned giant with a solid work ethic and high punch-output is a hard man to beat. Both Klits boys know exactly what their strengths are and are fully aware of their weaknesses. No advantage is too small and they stick to their game plans like a couple of zealots of the good book.

Bowe, on his best, is easier on the eye… But if he fought 100 nobodies he’d be out of shape for 75 of them. He could almost never stick to a fight plan and would always look to out-man his opponent, often to his detriment.

Bowe from Holyfield I was exceptional. After that he was all about diminishing returns.

Don’t get me wrong, I knew it would be a controversial pick. I don’t think there’s much in it.

Yes, he shouldn't have quit against Byrd (he would have won a rematch). That was one of the few errors he made in the ring. Bowe may have taken his beatings but if his career was being marked by a maths teacher there'd be more red than a Tarrentino film.

The versatility angle is right. But Bowe used his versatility against himself. VK always knows exactly what he has to do and rarely veers from the path.

And a fat out of shape Bowe would have no problems with anyone Vitali has ever fought sans Lewis. I don't have an issue with picking Vitali over Bowe in a mythical fight, though I would disagree. But ranking them I see no scenario where Vitali rates higher. He has no wins of note. What's his best win? Corrie Sanders? Talk about fat and out of shape.

I think you're making Vitali out to have a higher ring IQ than is actually the case. Did you watch Kevin Johnson lay on the ropes for 12 rounds? Why didn't he throw an uppercut or a body shot? What he has he uses very well, no argument there. But I can't toss aside porous opposition that easily. The one time he stepped up to the elite level, against another out of shape fighter, his face got mutilated.

Fair points...

He's a safety first fighter. If what he's doing is winning him the fight he'll just continue.

The point for me is that unlike say a Roy Jones, Vitali only really has his brother not on his record. It's not as if he missed anyone obvious. Poor opposition but check out your own top 10 (or mine). Holmes is #1 but he only beat Tim, and a young one at that (though possibly at his best).

Larry has better op than Vitali. But he also probably missed more top contenders than Vitali.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

A cement chinned giant with a solid work ethic and high punch-output is a hard man to beat. Both Klits boys know exactly what their strengths are and are fully aware of their weaknesses. No advantage is too small and they stick to their game plans like a couple of zealots of the good book.

Bowe, on his best, is easier on the eye… But if he fought 100 nobodies he’d be out of shape for 75 of them. He could almost never stick to a fight plan and would always look to out-man his opponent, often to his detriment.

Bowe from Holyfield I was exceptional. After that he was all about diminishing returns.

Don’t get me wrong, I knew it would be a controversial pick. I don’t think there’s much in it.

Yes, he shouldn't have quit against Byrd (he would have won a rematch). That was one of the few errors he made in the ring. Bowe may have taken his beatings but if his career was being marked by a maths teacher there'd be more red than a Tarrentino film.

The versatility angle is right. But Bowe used his versatility against himself. VK always knows exactly what he has to do and rarely veers from the path.

And a fat out of shape Bowe would have no problems with anyone Vitali has ever fought sans Lewis. I don't have an issue with picking Vitali over Bowe in a mythical fight, though I would disagree. But ranking them I see no scenario where Vitali rates higher. He has no wins of note. What's his best win? Corrie Sanders? Talk about fat and out of shape.

I think you're making Vitali out to have a higher ring IQ than is actually the case. Did you watch Kevin Johnson lay on the ropes for 12 rounds? Why didn't he throw an uppercut or a body shot? What he has he uses very well, no argument there. But I can't toss aside porous opposition that easily. The one time he stepped up to the elite level, against another out of shape fighter, his face got mutilated.

Fair points...

He's a safety first fighter. If what he's doing is winning him the fight he'll just continue.

The point for me is that unlike say a Roy Jones, Vitali only really has his brother not on his record. It's not as if he missed anyone obvious. Poor opposition but check out your own top 10 (or mine). Holmes is #1 but he only beat Tim, and a young one at that (though possibly at his best).

Larry has better op than Vitali. But he also probably missed more top contenders than Vitali.

Larry beat Mercer too, that's better than any of Vitali's wins and it's relatively close to his era. I didn't mean to imply that he had options other than lennox. Even if it isn't his fault, I still can't give him the benefit of the doubt in evaluating him in an all time sense.

I think Bowe was tougher, more talented and a much bigger puncher. Couple that with being more accomplished and it isn't even in the same ball park imo.

[keithmoonhangover]

And a fat out of shape Bowe would have no problems with anyone Vitali has ever fought sans Lewis. I don't have an issue with picking Vitali over Bowe in a mythical fight, though I would disagree. But ranking them I see no scenario where Vitali rates higher. He has no wins of note. What's his best win? Corrie Sanders? Talk about fat and out of shape.

I think you're making Vitali out to have a higher ring IQ than is actually the case. Did you watch Kevin Johnson lay on the ropes for 12 rounds? Why didn't he throw an uppercut or a body shot? What he has he uses very well, no argument there. But I can't toss aside porous opposition that easily. The one time he stepped up to the elite level, against another out of shape fighter, his face got mutilated.

Fair points...

He's a safety first fighter. If what he's doing is winning him the fight he'll just continue.

The point for me is that unlike say a Roy Jones, Vitali only really has his brother not on his record. It's not as if he missed anyone obvious. Poor opposition but check out your own top 10 (or mine). Holmes is #1 but he only beat Tim, and a young one at that (though possibly at his best).

Larry has better op than Vitali. But he also probably missed more top contenders than Vitali.

Larry beat Mercer too, that's better than any of Vitali's wins and it's relatively close to his era. I didn't mean to imply that he had options other than lennox. Even if it isn't his fault, I still can't give him the benefit of the doubt in evaluating him in an all time sense.

In his prime, Tyson beat Holmes with ease and butchered Spinks. Post Douglas, that wasn't even Tyson anymore.

[The Great John L]

Not against a real opponent.

At least Vitali had the balls to step up to the challenge. Riddick Bowe most likely wouldn't have been able to remain upright against Lewis, so he planned accordingly.

I have Bowe higher than Vitali as well, but anyone who puts any effort into arguing that fact probably is over-rating Bowe. The only thing weaker than Bowe's defense was his resume. He deserves a lot for taking 2 of 3 against Holyfield, but there is virtually nothing else there.

And before you start ranting about Vitali's weak opposition, I've already said that I have Bowe ahead of him. But neither of them are elite ATG fighters, so it's hardly a stretch to rate one over the other. It's not like someone rated Vitali over Holmes.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Not against a real opponent.

At least Vitali had the balls to step up to the challenge. Riddick Bowe most likely wouldn't have been able to remain upright against Lewis, so he planned accordingly.

I have Bowe higher than Vitali as well, but anyone who puts any effort into arguing that fact probably is over-rating Bowe. The only thing weaker than Bowe's defense was his resume. He deserves a lot for taking 2 of 3 against Holyfield, but there is virtually nothing else there.

And before you start ranting about Vitali's weak opposition, I've already said that I have Bowe ahead of him. But neither of them are elite ATG fighters, so it's hardly a stretch to rate one over the other. It's not like someone rated Vitali over Holmes.

I already said that at least Vitali stepped up and fought Lewis. Perhaps you should take your own advice about "ranting". I'm having a good discussion with Ezzard about a difference of opinion.

Nothing personal, I just found it funny that you mentioned blocking punches with his face when that visual evidence is right there for all to see. Bowe wouldn't get hit by Kevin Johnson or Cris Arreola either.

Edit: As highly as you rate tubbs, I'm surprised that isn't worth mentioning. I recall you thinking Tony won. But it was still a close fight against someone you have a lot of respect for.

[The Great John L]

I just found it funny that you mentioned blocking punches with his face when that visual evidence is right there for all to see. Bowe wouldn't get hit by Kevin Johnson or Cris Arreola either.

The fact that Bowe wouldn't fight Lewis is the exclamation mark on his career. Bowe got hit easily by everyone he fought that didn't fall over too quickly. The fact that he avoided just about everyone who could punch hard enough to hurt him is probably why many don't rate him highly. The Golota fights were the perfect way to end his career, because he and his management accidently fought someone who could fight and punch hard, they were just lucky that when it counted Golota lacked the fortitude to hang in in a tough fight. They didn't have many opponents in common, but you might want to watch Bowe struggling to stay upright against Hide. Hide didn't have quite as much success against Vitali.

And you're right, Arreola wouldn't have hit Bowe becuase he is a pretty good offensive fighter so Bowe wouldn't have fought him.

[Ezzard]

Okay, I'm a Brit so nobody is going to listen to me on this one but...

Herbie Hide was boxing well against both men until they hit his chin. I seem to remember he wobbled Bowe.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I just found it funny that you mentioned blocking punches with his face when that visual evidence is right there for all to see. Bowe wouldn't get hit by Kevin Johnson or Cris Arreola either.

The fact that Bowe wouldn't fight Lewis is the exclamation mark on his career. Bowe got hit easily by everyone he fought that didn't fall over too quickly. The fact that he avoided just about everyone who could punch hard enough to hurt him is probably why many don't rate him highly. The Golota fights were the perfect way to end his career, because he and his management accidently fought someone who could fight and punch hard, they were just lucky that when it counted Golota lacked the fortitude to hang in in a tough fight. They didn't have many opponents in common, but you might want to watch Bowe struggling to stay upright against Hide. Hide didn't have quite as much success against Vitali.

And you're right, Arreola wouldn't have hit Bowe becuase he is a pretty good offensive fighter so Bowe wouldn't have fought him.

This is really a poor post, you're better than that. You're obviously angry for some reason. Take a deep breath or something.

You might need to watch Bowe dismantle Hide again yourself. As for Bowe ducking Arreola, that's as bad as it gets. He would starch Arreola in 2 or 3 rounds.

Do you think Bowe would have had the fortitude to fight Rahman?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Okay, I'm a Brit so nobody is going to listen to me on this one but...

Herbie Hide was boxing well against both men until they hit his chin. I seem to remember he wobbled Bowe.

He did briefly, so did Larry donald. I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove. Hide could always punch. I remember my friend and I demanding Newman had doctored Bowe's gloves the way Hide was falling all over the ring. There was an issue with Riddick's gloves that took forever. We were demanding they rubbed ether on them because we were cheering on herbie. Good drunken times.

[Ezzard]

Okay, I'm a Brit so nobody is going to listen to me on this one but...

Herbie Hide was boxing well against both men until they hit his chin. I seem to remember he wobbled Bowe.

He did briefly, so did Larry donald. I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove. Hide could always punch. I remember my friend and I demanding Newman had doctored Bowe's gloves the way Hide was falling all over the ring. There was an issue with Riddick's gloves that took forever. We were demanding they rubbed ether on them because we were cheering on herbie. Good drunken times.

Herbie was always a bit crazy. He was also pretty nimble.

With Bowe he caught him off guard with an accurate shot. With Vitali he was a pest and you could see Vitali was annoyed.

[Flump]

Okay, I'm a Brit so nobody is going to listen to me on this one but...

Herbie Hide was boxing well against both men until they hit his chin. I seem to remember he wobbled Bowe.

He did briefly, so did Larry donald. I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove. Hide could always punch. I remember my friend and I demanding Newman had doctored Bowe's gloves the way Hide was falling all over the ring. There was an issue with Riddick's gloves that took forever. We were demanding they rubbed ether on them because we were cheering on herbie. Good drunken times.

Herbie was always a bit crazy. He was also pretty nimble.

With Bowe he caught him off guard with an accurate shot. With Vitali he was a pest and you could see Vitali was annoyed.

He had some tools for sure, but also a bully's mentality and no chin whatsoever. As a Brit I was a bit embarrassed watching the Bowe fight to be honest, he didn't even really get hit solidly and he was down repeatedly. But he lasted 5 more rounds than I expected to be fair.

[Flump]

I would go with the following

Holmes
Lewis
Holyfield
Tyson
Bowe
W Klitschko
V Klitschko
M.Spinks
Witherspoon
Weaver

After the Klitschko's it gets very diificult. I think a lot of other guys who didn't make my list (Douglas, Dokes, Ruddock, Page etc) have more pure talent and could well have beaten the Klitschko brothers but it's almost impossible to separate them in terms of consistency and longevity, albeit that the Klitschko's between them don't have a signature win.

I went with Spinks because he beat a 48-0 Holmes, Witherspoon for staying largely relevant for over 10 years and the wildcard pick was Weaver, who was very inconsistent but even at the tail end of his career came up with surprise wins. But trying to rank the 80's alphabet guys is very very difficult.

[dr_devious]

1. Holmes
2. Lewis
3. Holyfield
4. Tyson
5. Bowe
6. Vitali
7. Wladimir
8. Witherspoon
9. Spinks
10. Tucker

[dempseyfire]

1) Holmes
2) Holyfield
3) Lewis
4) Tyson
5) Bowe
6) Vitali
7) Wlad
8) Witherspoon
9) Weaver
10) Thomas

Bowe may have had a disappointing career but a W over a peak Evander is so far beyond anything the Klitschkos have ever done. Vitali's wins align with the other pedestrian fighters Bowe was facing pre and post Holyfield (Biggs, Seldon, Tubbs, Cooper . .in fact two of Vitali's better wins in Hide and Donald were beaten by Bowe when they were in their prime)

[Goodnight, Irene]

1) Holmes
2) Holyfield
3) Lewis
4) Tyson
5) Bowe
6) Vitali
7) Wlad
8) Witherspoon
9) Weaver
10) Thomas

Bowe may have had a disappointing career but a W over a peak Evander is so far beyond anything the Klitschkos have ever done. Vitali's wins align with the other pedestrian fighters Bowe was facing pre and post Holyfield (Biggs, Seldon, Tubbs, Cooper . .in fact two of Vitali's better wins in Hide and Donald were beaten by Bowe when they were in their prime)

A seasoned-campaigner like you, Demps, falling for the oldest trick in this forum's book --- the dreaded, " 8) " in place of a bracketed eight. Terrible.