Which Was The Greater Achievement?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Feb 2011, 03:31

Leonard over Hagler, or Duran over Barkley?

Decide 8)

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 11 Feb 2011, 05:43

If you were touring the clubs then fine. But mostly the same people come on this site so it's probably better that you vary your material or get a completely new act altogether.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Feb 2011, 05:48

Ezzard wrote:If you were touring the clubs then fine. But mostly the same people come on this site so it's probably better that you vary your material or get a completely new act altogether.

It's a sincere question. I hear so much about these two remarkable fights, why not, I thought?

Don't mistake this for trolling. It isn't. Obviously, Hagler was greater than Barkley ever would be, but there's a case to be made it evens out to whatever degree by virtue of Duran being even more faded than Leonard was. He didn't have Leonard's stipulations in his favour, either.

Am I to take it you think this is a no-brainer for Leonard?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 11 Feb 2011, 05:57

Seemed like (seems like) a question you had already made your mind up on...

But fair enough. I'll take you at your word.

It's hard to say...

Hagler was one of the great MW champs. Leonard was moving up to fight at 160 for the first time. He was also coming off a long lay-off.

At the time it was all about Leonard for me. Was he right, had Hagler lost something? Did Leonard have anything left?

It was a signature win that went around the globe.

Barkley was much bigger than Duran. Iran was coming off wins over Hearns so was really on fire. Duran had not looked good in a ring for quite a while and nobody wanted to see him still fighting.

I was definitely more shocked by this result.

Both Leonard and Duran were already considered to be greats at their own weight classes and these fights just enhanced what we already knew about them.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 11 Feb 2011, 13:29

Beating Hagler was hands down the greater achievement. The way Duran beat Barkley was more impressive.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 11 Feb 2011, 14:41

Sugar Ray Leonard without a doubt. After almost 3 years out of the ring, he moves up to a weight he had never fought at and defeats the world's number 1 ppf. Hard act to follow for anybody. A win over Iran Barkley just can't be compared with a win over Hagler.

Idisagree · Post by **Idisagree** » 11 Feb 2011, 15:54

Seamus has a point that a win over Barkley can’t be compared with a win over Hagler. However, I think Hagler was more at fault for losing the fight than anything that Leonard did. I think Hagler drop the ball that day. On the other hand, Duran vs Barkley was something the impress me more than what Leonard did. Having said that my vote goes to Duran vs Barkley. I thought Barkley was just too big and strong for Duran, but Duran really showed his versatility on that fight.

Jaywheel · Post by **Jaywheel** » 11 Feb 2011, 16:07

Foreman over Moorer

Adamj1987 · Post by **Adamj1987** » 11 Feb 2011, 16:12

duran

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 11 Feb 2011, 16:26

Gotta go with Leonard, following a 3-year layoff to come back and take on a dominant (albeit fading) Middleweight Champion like Marvin Hagler, It was and always will be a hellacious accomplishment.

Duran's victory over Barkley is very impressive in it's own right of course, but I have to give the edge to Leonard because I figure even the faded version of Hagler was still a far better fighter than Barkley ever was.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 11 Feb 2011, 17:21

To me this isn't even close . . .Leonard coming to his first fight at 160, his first fight in 3 years, and it's versus a top 5 ALL TIME middleweight champion . .

Barkely on the other hand was a crude slugger who was never very highly regarded and scored a massive upset with his KO of Hearns. Duran was fairly past it too but had forgotten more about boxing than Iran ever knew . . .

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 11 Feb 2011, 19:26

Interesting, the voting lines. Dead-even.

SUGARRAYSMELEE · Post by **SUGARRAYSMELEE** » 12 Feb 2011, 04:25

Duran over Barkley, because Hagler beat Leonard.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 Feb 2011, 18:00

dempseyfire wrote:To me this isn't even close . . .Leonard coming to his first fight at 160, his first fight in 3 years, and it's versus a top 5 ALL TIME middleweight champion . .

Barkely on the other hand was a crude slugger who was never very highly regarded and scored a massive upset with his KO of Hearns. Duran was fairly past it too but had forgotten more about boxing than Iran ever knew . . .

That people even have to give this question a second thought speaks volumes about how underrated Leonard is on this Forum.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 13 Feb 2011, 18:04

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 Feb 2011, 18:48

That was my reaction when I saw this question.

There several other examples of a 37 year old (or older) beating an alphabet soup titleholder.
How many other examples can you come up with a guy beating an ATG after a 3-year layoff?

Iran Barkley or Marvin Hagler? Wow, that is a tough one.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 13 Feb 2011, 19:24

Nothing is as funny as calling Leonard underrated. Just because everyone doesn't drool over his every move like you do doesn't make him unappreciated.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 13 Feb 2011, 20:58

There's probably guys here who think Duran beating Moore is a grerater achievement then Leonard beating Hagler.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 Feb 2011, 21:28

There probably are. The great Davey Moore; a "hot fighter" like Barkley.
Leonard is probably the second most criticized fighter on this Forum. He routinely gets ripped for things no one else is. His achievements are routinely minimized. The fact that there are people that actually think a win over Iran Barkley remotely compares to beating Marvin Hagler is yet another example.
People don't like him and are incapable of judging him like anyone else.

There are people who think that beating a very limited fighter like Iran Barkley is a gigantic win. However if you point out that Leonard's win over Hagler is an historic win, they come back with something brilliant like you are drooling over his every move.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 13 Feb 2011, 21:53

I imagine that is people who are still pissed off about the decision in Leonard/Hagler or they are swept up in the machismo of Duran's performance. I agree that Leonard is clearly the answer here, but your lust for Leonard overwhelms anything else, He isn't above criticism and every criticism isn't breaking down his career or diminishing his brilliance. You're just so irrational when it comes to leonard or Ali that you go on a tangent the second someone says one word that isn't complimentary. This forum is loaded with respect for leonard, we all just don't worship him like you do.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 14 Feb 2011, 07:23

Barkley had just beaten Hearns twice. Leonard was unable to do this when they met.

Now 1 + 2 doesn't have to equal 3 in boxing BUT what it indicates is that having a different view point on this issue isn't really some kind of mass conspiracy.

Some people don't like Duran because they think he was rude to Leonard's wife... Fair enough... They don't mention that Leonard allegedly knocked her about...

Of course, everyone thinks they are being objective.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 14 Feb 2011, 14:33

Yes Barkley beat Hearns. However you know darn well that Barkley's overall career was not that impressive.
Is it a big win for the other 18 guys that beat the great Iran Barkley?
If it was Leonard that beat Barkley nobody would think much of it.

Do you really want to get off track and compare the character of Duran and Leonard? We really have no idea what Leonard did or not do to his wife.
Duran said nasty things about her in front of many people at press conferences. We know he did that.

Leonard was no saint but he seems a good guy.

Duran was a quitter. Leonard was not.
Duran was a dirty fighter. Leonard was not.
Duran did not give credit to his opponents. Leonard did often.
Duran made excuses for his losses. Leonard did not.

Yes we all have guys like that we really like and others that we can't stand. We are all human and have our biases.
However, I do try to rate fighters on how good they were, not how I like them. There guys in the Hall of Fame that I like but don't think should be in there. There are guys that I don't like or (or don't have a strong opinion about) that I think are worthy and have said so many times.

I don't want this to be a popularity contest. I don't give credit guys that I like that I wouldn't to someone else in a similar situation. Nor do I rip guys that don't like for things that I wouldn't for someone else.
If you can find anytimes where I done that let me know.

Cleary there is a double standard with Leonard. Leonard probably gets ripped more on BOTP than anyone but Ali. Just look at the old posts.

vagabundo55 · Post by **vagabundo55** » 14 Feb 2011, 15:36

Gotta go with Duran vs Barkley. Leonard didn't quite win that fight so much as the last 30 seconds of every round. Still i'd take Leonard over De La Hoya and that's a lot of respect.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 15 Feb 2011, 06:02

Ambling Alp wrote:Yes Barkley beat Hearns. However you know darn well that Barkley's overall career was not that impressive.
Is it a big win for the other 18 guys that beat the great Iran Barkley?
If it was Leonard that beat Barkley nobody would think much of it.

Do you really want to get off track and compare the character of Duran and Leonard? We really have no idea what Leonard did or not do to his wife.
Duran said nasty things about her in front of many people at press conferences. We know he did that.

Leonard was no saint but he seems a good guy.

Duran was a quitter. Leonard was not.
Duran was a dirty fighter. Leonard was not.
Duran did not give credit to his opponents. Leonard did often.
Duran made excuses for his losses. Leonard did not.

Yes we all have guys like that we really like and others that we can't stand. We are all human and have our biases.
However, I do try to rate fighters on how good they were, not how I like them. There guys in the Hall of Fame that I like but don't think should be in there. There are guys that I don't like or (or don't have a strong opinion about) that I think are worthy and have said so many times.

I don't want this to be a popularity contest. I don't give credit guys that I like that I wouldn't to someone else in a similar situation. Nor do I rip guys that don't like for things that I wouldn't for someone else.
If you can find anytimes where I done that let me know.

Cleary there is a double standard with Leonard. Leonard probably gets ripped more on BOTP than anyone but Ali. Just look at the old posts.

My point was simply that you accuse everyone of the a double standard that you yourself practice.

You are not only unable to accept that some people think Duran's accomplishment was better, you're not even prepared to accept that many people think it's close.

Leonard's win was meteroric.

Duran beating Barkley was akin to the Leonard who fought Norris and/or Camacho beating a peak Marvin Johnson at 175.

That's quite something.

Scottrf · Post by **Scottrf** » 15 Feb 2011, 06:04

I believe it's better to achieve something big rather than achieve something bigger than you were supposed to. So Leonard over Hagler.