OK, a bit melodramatic, but am I alone in being utterly demoralised at the recent run of events? Whether it's the fiasco of the York Hall bill falling apart, the farce that is Hatton versus Alvarez for a world title, or the emergence of yet more world 'titles' and 'super world' titles, I can't help but feel that at a time where boxing really needs to be getting its house in order, instead it seems intent on committing harakiri. I was naively trying to think positively about 2011 given things like the crop of young British boxers coming through, but we're barely into the year and already it's shaping up to be one characterised by routine letdowns and disappointments.
The worst thing is that some of us are so desperate to salvage matters that we end up as apologists for some of these situations. I genuinely struggle to think which sports fans get treated worse than those in boxing. For example, name me one bill where what was advertised actually ends up being what you get on the night? There are always excuses ranging from injuries (and I should add as a caveat that of course some of these are genuine on occasion but most definitely not all) through to promotional manoeuvering, but it seems to be the fans i.e. the paying customers, who are put last rather than first. Some of the practices that I've even seen people on here find excuses for just wouldn't be tolerated in any other arena, whether that's a business one or a sporting one.
In very simple terms, politics and corrupt governing bodies are ruining this game, and I know you're probably all saying 'no shit, tell me something I don't know', but my concern is that it's getting worse not better, at a critical watershed point for the sport. I hate to draw the comparison, as I know it winds some people up on here and that's not intentional on my part, but look at UFC by contrast - brilliant marketing, you invariably get what you pay for, the shows are a great experience as they've invested in the infrastructure and overall fans/customers are treated with the importance they deserve. Contrast that with something like the Frankie Gavin situation, which just looks like amateur hour by comparison. Here we've got an amazing British talent with world credentials and he's dragged into a fiasco like the Cook situation... madness.
Sorry, as I know I'm venting, but it's just this type of self-inflicted damage being done to the sport is so bloody painful to watch.
Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Yeah, it's appalling.
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Glyn Leach
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2135
- Joined: 25 Dec 2007, 14:08
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Vent away Deserter! There, feel a bit better now mate? No, I know, not that easy is it. Can't say I disagree with a word you've written, in fact I empathise 100%. Yet I somehow remain positive at the moment, don't ask me why.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
I totally and completely agree. Boxing is very amateur-ish in many ways compared to UFC.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Couldnt agree more.
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mickey1975
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 23131
- Joined: 02 Mar 2009, 12:54
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
If one promoter controlled all of Boxing and paid the fighters relative peanuts in terms of money generated,im sure all the big fights could be easily made and a fortune spent on the "event".TheCobra wrote:I totally and completely agree. Boxing is very amateur-ish in many ways compared to UFC.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
There's a world of difference between UFC and boxing though! There's a lot of middle ground that could be reached, boxing has gone super-daft at the moment with the amount of different world titles, not good for the sport.mickey1975 wrote:If one promoter controlled all of Boxing and paid the fighters relative peanuts in terms of money generated,im sure all the big fights could be easily made and a fortune spent on the "event".TheCobra wrote:I totally and completely agree. Boxing is very amateur-ish in many ways compared to UFC.
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JimJim2009
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3131
- Joined: 10 Nov 2008, 09:48
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Agree 100% with that first post. I agree that the sport seems to be getting worse, not better.
That said, I wonder if this perception is slightly skewed by the fact that we're firmly in the internet age, whereas say 20 years ago, fans had to rely on printed news to learn about the goings on in the sport. Once a week, pop down the news agents for Boxing News. Now, its instant news, gossip and rumour, and on forums like this, dedicated fans get info on a daily basis (maybe hourly ?!).
What I mean is, maybe 20-30 years ago, a fight like Gavin vs Cook and all of the ups and downs of the past few days, might have been signed and sealed by the time BN went to press, and therefore fans basically just heard about the end result (ie, what the match up is, or if the show was off) in the trade paper, rather than all the rumours that seem to come out by the hour on forums like this.
I just wonder if machinations of the kind we've heard about this week, always took place, but before the internet, the media couldn't keep up, whereas now stuff gets online by the hour. Crikey, the boxers themselves come on and post updates, which is something relatively new in the history of the sport.
Its just a thought. I still think boxing is going down the sewer. Since the alphabet bodies won't do the decent thing and fall on their swords, perhaps the next best thing is that they inadvertently dig their whole ever deeper, which they seem hell bent on doing. Let's hope that one day something happens, and a point of no return is reached leading to them all being consigned to the scrap heap for good.
That said, I wonder if this perception is slightly skewed by the fact that we're firmly in the internet age, whereas say 20 years ago, fans had to rely on printed news to learn about the goings on in the sport. Once a week, pop down the news agents for Boxing News. Now, its instant news, gossip and rumour, and on forums like this, dedicated fans get info on a daily basis (maybe hourly ?!).
What I mean is, maybe 20-30 years ago, a fight like Gavin vs Cook and all of the ups and downs of the past few days, might have been signed and sealed by the time BN went to press, and therefore fans basically just heard about the end result (ie, what the match up is, or if the show was off) in the trade paper, rather than all the rumours that seem to come out by the hour on forums like this.
I just wonder if machinations of the kind we've heard about this week, always took place, but before the internet, the media couldn't keep up, whereas now stuff gets online by the hour. Crikey, the boxers themselves come on and post updates, which is something relatively new in the history of the sport.
Its just a thought. I still think boxing is going down the sewer. Since the alphabet bodies won't do the decent thing and fall on their swords, perhaps the next best thing is that they inadvertently dig their whole ever deeper, which they seem hell bent on doing. Let's hope that one day something happens, and a point of no return is reached leading to them all being consigned to the scrap heap for good.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Craig Watson is a fine fighter who pasted Matthew Hatton, the reigning European welterweight champion. This was before Hatton was crowned champion, so Watson gets no credit. The tall Manchester southpaw gets no credit for dropping Amir Khan in the amateurs, and Khan really comes to fight. This Saturday in London, Frankie Gavin also comes to fight as the luckless Watson - on the same night in the same city - slips into a different ring for a rematch with John O'Donnell for the vacant British welterweight title. Somebody once said life is what you make it. Tell it to Charley Burley; tell it to Craig Watson.
Watson and O'Donnell first met in a 12-round thriller two years ago which could have gone either way, yet O'Donnell nicked it. Since then, the 28-year-old Watson has improved. O'Donnell? No, I don't think he has as much but he is the London 'house fighter' and just as rangy as Watson, just as rangy a southpaw, so this is even-Steven again, and to add icing to the cake, we have a splendid British title affair at the same Wembley Arena between the strong, snowballing Lenny Daws and the quick, punchaholic Ashley Theophane at light-welterweight. Daws is the champion.
Menawhile, across London at Bethnal Green's York Hall, the talented, sharp-hitting Gavin faces the sturdy Michael Lomax over eight rounds as he builds on a phenomenal amateur career which culminated in gold in the world championships in Chicago in 2007, the first gold medal ever worn by a British fighter at those championships.
Light-welterweight Gavin turned over shortly afterwards and is looking good at 8-0 (seven early). He has all the skills, all the charisma, all the humility to keep the fans informed - and all the headlines, even if Watson wins his weekend, which I think he will.
"Funtime" Frankie knows how to 'work' a minority sport of very few true boxing fans. Instead, hundreds of casual supporters latch on to one man, and that man is not the sedate Craig Watson.
Watson and O'Donnell first met in a 12-round thriller two years ago which could have gone either way, yet O'Donnell nicked it. Since then, the 28-year-old Watson has improved. O'Donnell? No, I don't think he has as much but he is the London 'house fighter' and just as rangy as Watson, just as rangy a southpaw, so this is even-Steven again, and to add icing to the cake, we have a splendid British title affair at the same Wembley Arena between the strong, snowballing Lenny Daws and the quick, punchaholic Ashley Theophane at light-welterweight. Daws is the champion.
Menawhile, across London at Bethnal Green's York Hall, the talented, sharp-hitting Gavin faces the sturdy Michael Lomax over eight rounds as he builds on a phenomenal amateur career which culminated in gold in the world championships in Chicago in 2007, the first gold medal ever worn by a British fighter at those championships.
Light-welterweight Gavin turned over shortly afterwards and is looking good at 8-0 (seven early). He has all the skills, all the charisma, all the humility to keep the fans informed - and all the headlines, even if Watson wins his weekend, which I think he will.
"Funtime" Frankie knows how to 'work' a minority sport of very few true boxing fans. Instead, hundreds of casual supporters latch on to one man, and that man is not the sedate Craig Watson.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Erm, cheers for that bennie, 
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
A suicide mission is a bit strong, but Boxing, as a sport, consistently suffers from a lack of independent oversight.
As for the comparison with UFC, I simply don't get it. UFC is a promotion/vehicle for MMA rather than a Sport in its own right. Much like FWP or Golden Boy aren't Boxing, just parts of the whole.
To compare the slickness, consistency and high production values of UFC with some last minute changes forced by injury (to Bellew) and over-ambition (on the part of Cook) to a regular, small-hall show is a little unfair. I don't know a great deal about UFC, but i'd compare their events with the big boxing nights - the Mag 7, the Haye-Harrisons (bad example in terms of fight quality, but comparable in terms of an event), Pac-Margarito. What does UFC do in terms of the smaller shows? The week in-week out fights that appear on SFN on Sky or Primetime, the cards that provide opportunities for young up and coming fighters to learn the trade, the fights that keep the likes of Johnny Greaves and the other worthy journeyman in business? I simply don't see how one can validly compare Boxing as a whole sport with UFC, which is a privately run promotion.
As for the comparison with UFC, I simply don't get it. UFC is a promotion/vehicle for MMA rather than a Sport in its own right. Much like FWP or Golden Boy aren't Boxing, just parts of the whole.
To compare the slickness, consistency and high production values of UFC with some last minute changes forced by injury (to Bellew) and over-ambition (on the part of Cook) to a regular, small-hall show is a little unfair. I don't know a great deal about UFC, but i'd compare their events with the big boxing nights - the Mag 7, the Haye-Harrisons (bad example in terms of fight quality, but comparable in terms of an event), Pac-Margarito. What does UFC do in terms of the smaller shows? The week in-week out fights that appear on SFN on Sky or Primetime, the cards that provide opportunities for young up and coming fighters to learn the trade, the fights that keep the likes of Johnny Greaves and the other worthy journeyman in business? I simply don't see how one can validly compare Boxing as a whole sport with UFC, which is a privately run promotion.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
earsjohn wrote:A suicide mission is a bit strong, but Boxing, as a sport, consistently suffers from a lack of independent oversight.
As for the comparison with UFC, I simply don't get it. UFC is a promotion/vehicle for MMA rather than a Sport in its own right. Much like FWP or Golden Boy aren't Boxing, just parts of the whole.
To compare the slickness, consistency and high production values of UFC with some last minute changes forced by injury (to Bellew) and over-ambition (on the part of Cook) to a regular, small-hall show is a little unfair. I don't know a great deal about UFC, but i'd compare their events with the big boxing nights - the Mag 7, the Haye-Harrisons (bad example in terms of fight quality, but comparable in terms of an event), Pac-Margarito. What does UFC do in terms of the smaller shows? The week in-week out fights that appear on SFN on Sky or Primetime, the cards that provide opportunities for young up and coming fighters to learn the trade, the fights that keep the likes of Johnny Greaves and the other worthy journeyman in business? I simply don't see how one can validly compare Boxing as a whole sport with UFC, which is a privately run promotion.
Absolutely correct. The only reason people compare the two is because they are suckered in by years and years of aggressive anti-boxing propaganda put out by the UFC. If allegedly controlled every boxer in the UK, he would have no problem making every match he wanted and would also be able to have boxers on standby as substitutes.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
I guess people are asking for a bit of common sense aren't they.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
The thing for me is the unbeaten record.
It didn’t used to matter that greats like Alan Minter had lost a couple on the way up. These fighters got put in with the best as an education. They won most, lost a few and it improved them.
Nowadays it feels like much of the missed fights and phony titles is about keeping fighters unbeaten. But the best of times are when a group of fighters fight one another and there are rematches to help fuel the rivalries. It’s the great rivalries that make the sport and capture the general sport fans’ imagination.
It didn’t used to matter that greats like Alan Minter had lost a couple on the way up. These fighters got put in with the best as an education. They won most, lost a few and it improved them.
Nowadays it feels like much of the missed fights and phony titles is about keeping fighters unbeaten. But the best of times are when a group of fighters fight one another and there are rematches to help fuel the rivalries. It’s the great rivalries that make the sport and capture the general sport fans’ imagination.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
There are some great potential fights for the UK that should be made but we all know won't happen. Reason being, the biggest promoters in this country don't seem to want to work together to even contemplate making them happen.
It really annoys me when fight cards are bulked out in this country with are top prospects fighting complete bums from other country's or left to fight journeyman where we all know what the outcome is going to be.
I also agree the amount of fighters pulling out of fights in todays age, even at extremelly short notice is getting obsered. I think some kind of independant body needs to get involved, to check out if the reason is genuine. If not then promotional companys need to face heavy fines. I personally get sick of forking out £50 plus for tickets, travel and hotel fees, and then spending the weeks leading up to fights anxious about whether the fights will actually happen.
It really annoys me when fight cards are bulked out in this country with are top prospects fighting complete bums from other country's or left to fight journeyman where we all know what the outcome is going to be.
I also agree the amount of fighters pulling out of fights in todays age, even at extremelly short notice is getting obsered. I think some kind of independant body needs to get involved, to check out if the reason is genuine. If not then promotional companys need to face heavy fines. I personally get sick of forking out £50 plus for tickets, travel and hotel fees, and then spending the weeks leading up to fights anxious about whether the fights will actually happen.
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Eraserhead
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 554
- Joined: 14 Dec 2007, 18:46
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Agree completely. Ask yourself this - what happened to big fights taking place on a semi-regular basis? There has been fornicate all to get excited about this year and, looking at the schedule, that isn't about to change anytime soon. Fights like Bradley-Alexander and Donaire-Montiel are interesting enough on paper (for us lot), but I'm massively concerned about the lack of genuinely big fights and stars coming through. Once Pacquiao is out, this thing is in serious trouble 
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el_grande_mauro_mina
- Lightweight
- Posts: 11215
- Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 11:54
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
I think the alphabet bodies know their time is up - that is why boxing is full of super champions and silver champions and whatnot - they are flooding the markets now with titles trying to cash in before they are forced into oblivion. Once upon a time, TV needed their titles, now they don't. They know they are in a very vulnerable position. They won't go on their own accord though - how the IBF is still running is a mystery to everybody or it should be.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
I appreciate Adam Smith & co need a rapport with these fighters - but all said and done, they need to be in CONTROL of that rapport. They need to understand that it's us, the paying customer who needs to be looked after - and not the promoter / fighter.
Sometimes it's a benevolent fund.
We're already moving into an era that's akin to Tesco and Asda - with mass-marketed crap, gift wrapped Polish and African bums fed to bogus belt holders as 'meaningful' fights.
Some of the smaller promoters and lesser fighters are really taking pride in their efforts. They're trying to get the unknown talent out there and put together a quality bill of boxing and do their very best.
The crux of the problem for me, is the lack of co-promoting that goes on domestically. Too many ego's and attitude towards "rival camps" that prevent certain fighters colliding when us, the paying public are demanding it.
Smith needs to adopt a stronger stance. He should get them round a table and knock their heads together and tell them exactly whats in the kitty, what the dates are and take a passive, but overseeing role in guaranteeing these fights happen.
I appreciate he is already a busy guy with everything else, but something has got to give soon.
Sometimes it's a benevolent fund.
We're already moving into an era that's akin to Tesco and Asda - with mass-marketed crap, gift wrapped Polish and African bums fed to bogus belt holders as 'meaningful' fights.
Some of the smaller promoters and lesser fighters are really taking pride in their efforts. They're trying to get the unknown talent out there and put together a quality bill of boxing and do their very best.
The crux of the problem for me, is the lack of co-promoting that goes on domestically. Too many ego's and attitude towards "rival camps" that prevent certain fighters colliding when us, the paying public are demanding it.
Smith needs to adopt a stronger stance. He should get them round a table and knock their heads together and tell them exactly whats in the kitty, what the dates are and take a passive, but overseeing role in guaranteeing these fights happen.
I appreciate he is already a busy guy with everything else, but something has got to give soon.
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el_grande_mauro_mina
- Lightweight
- Posts: 11215
- Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 11:54
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Absolutley spot on!G0mez wrote:I appreciate Adam Smith & co need a rapport with these fighters - but all said and done, they need to be in CONTROL of that rapport. They need to understand that it's us, the paying customer who needs to be looked after - and not the promoter / fighter.
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Glyn Leach
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2135
- Joined: 25 Dec 2007, 14:08
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Agreed Gomez. Sky has so much power but it seems reluctant to use it. I know Premier is having a dabble now, but Sky is still the only game in town for the promoters it has under contract and for any fighter wanting to go PPV. Bottom line is without Sky money, the promoters and fighters are in trouble, they can't earn. It's like any employment situation, the way I see it — the person paying the wages dictates the rules and if the person taking the wages doesn't like it or doesn't follow those rules, then you find another person to employ.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
I agree. I think we will see a move towards alphabet belts being replaced by either TV Titles (eg HBO World Champion) or large Promotional Group titles(eg Golden Boy World Champion), Sounds preposterous and flimsy, but if you consider that HBO make a big play of the Ring Champion which is a title subjectively awarded by a privately run magazine that is wholly owned by Golden Boy, a promotional group with very strong contractual ties to HBO, then we are already a long way down this route.G0mez wrote:I appreciate Adam Smith & co need a rapport with these fighters - but all said and done, they need to be in CONTROL of that rapport. They need to understand that it's us, the paying customer who needs to be looked after - and not the promoter / fighter.
Sometimes it's a benevolent fund.
We're already moving into an era that's akin to Tesco and Asda - with mass-marketed crap, gift wrapped Polish and African bums fed to bogus belt holders as 'meaningful' fights.
Some of the smaller promoters and lesser fighters are really taking pride in their efforts. They're trying to get the unknown talent out there and put together a quality bill of boxing and do their very best.
The crux of the problem for me, is the lack of co-promoting that goes on domestically. Too many ego's and attitude towards "rival camps" that prevent certain fighters colliding when us, the paying public are demanding it.
Smith needs to adopt a stronger stance. He should get them round a table and knock their heads together and tell them exactly whats in the kitty, what the dates are and take a passive, but overseeing role in guaranteeing these fights happen.
I appreciate he is already a busy guy with everything else, but something has got to give soon.
It may be a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire, but looking at this country, we currently only have one serious TV company. If Sky were to mandate certain fights between fighters under their contractual banner, rather than leaving it at the mercy of individual promoters, we would certainly see the likes of Degale v Groves happening more often. Sky have to be canny and use their power over the promoters wisely. Too much pressure, and a Warren or a Hatton may flounce off to an ITV or a Premier Sports out of spite and self interest; not enough pressure and a strong position is weakened as fans are turned off by the procession of non-fights.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
boxers earn ten times more then mma fighter's & choose there own destiny. take mayweather for example,he pick's & choose's & is under no obligation to fight anyone 
we've had the super six series were we have seen fighters like dirrel turn into a coward & it's fallen apart with who fight's when & were etc.
if i was a multi millionaire id love to put up aload of prize money & have a open tournament.
we've had the super six series were we have seen fighters like dirrel turn into a coward & it's fallen apart with who fight's when & were etc.
if i was a multi millionaire id love to put up aload of prize money & have a open tournament.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
Not at all. There is no like for like comparison on earnings. However, bottom of the card fighters on a UFC card earn much much more than a boxer in the same position. And your medical is covered by the organisation.
The answer is simple. GBP buy everyone and run it themselves.
And the issue of X not fighting Y is still prevalent in MMA. It's not got all the solutions needed.
The answer is simple. GBP buy everyone and run it themselves.
And the issue of X not fighting Y is still prevalent in MMA. It's not got all the solutions needed.
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
my other pet hate are comments like, groves & degale shouldnt fight for the lonsdale it should be for somthing bigger :!:
it's like saying chelsea should only play man u in the european.
it's like saying chelsea should only play man u in the european.
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freddydoesdallas
- Cruiserweight
- Posts: 9436
- Joined: 02 Sep 2010, 13:48
Re: Is boxing on a suicide mission?
That bugs me too, what's even worse is that fans seem to be coming out with this sort of stuff too. If the first match between them for the lonsdale is a cracker then think how much the rematch would make further down the line if they made it to world levelhurlock wrote:my other pet hate are comments like, groves & degale shouldnt fight for the lonsdale it should be for somthing bigger :!:
it's like saying chelsea should only play man u in the european.