Ali vs Forman II-Vote & Write what you think would happen!

[Shpati]

I only see Ali losing to Foreman like he did against Larry Holmes. But I still do not think Foreman can go that many rounds with Holmes pace. I do not see Ali going down and not getting up.

Ali wins if the fight was about 1-2 years after the first.

[Ezzard]

Just to come back on a few points.

Foreman could stop Ali. He didn’t really land a flush shot on the jaw during their fight and Frazier came very close to stopping Ali (ref could have stopped it). I don’t think it’s impossible as some are making out. I’d say unlikely but then again I think Foreman would KO the Ali from the Norton III fight.

On the other hand this idea that Ali just soaked it all up until Foreman was out of fuel, and that all George had to do was hold back a little… Watch the fight. Ali puts on a display of great skill. He smothers Foreman’s best punches. He spears Foreman with straight lefts and rights the whole fight. Ali barely misses a punch. I don’t care how loose the ropes were… Foreman was out-boxed, out-thought and essentially out-psyched. Ali used less movement but he dominated Foreman like he did Liston.

I didn’t watch the fight live (which always gives you a different perspective) but when I watch it back I don’t think it’s even that close.

Foreman’s chances go up in a rematch. They go up significantly the older Ali gets. But Ali was the significantly better boxer

[The Great John L]

Excellent post Ezz.

[SUGARRAYSMELEE]

I think, psychologically, Foreman would be unable to recover from the first fight. Ali would utilize his mind games to the fullest and would overwhelm George. He would lose the rematch before he got in the ring. ALI by TKO.

[Counter-puncher]

Excellent post Ezz.

yup, good work mate

sidenote: lovely to see an Ali thread without a single argumentative/ belligerent post

[gilgamesh]

Ezzard said it all. For the poster that says Ali didn't do anything until Foreman was completely gassed, watch the end of Round 5 when he tags Foreman with about 15 or 20 flush right hands in the final 50 seconds of the round. I remember him coming out and tagging Foreman immediately at the start of the fight also. Ali was always landing punches the whole fight, sure he was doing the rope-a-dope, but he landed his share of punches every round.

[Counter-puncher]

Ezzard said it all. For the poster that says Ali didn't do anything until Foreman was completely gassed, watch the end of Round 5 when he tags Foreman with about 15 or 20 flush right hands in the final 50 seconds of the round. I remember him coming out and tagging Foreman immediately at the start of the fight also. .

exactly

[Brute]

Ali made 10 successful defenses of his title after beating Foreman. One of those defenses was against Jimmy Young who went on to knock Big George down on the way to a UD against him in 1977.

It was after that fight that George got his "vision" and joined the God Squad. Ali messed with George's mind in Zaire. Foreman admitted that.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Ali made 10 successful defenses of his title after beating Foreman. One of those defenses was against Jimmy Young who went on to knock Big George down on the way to a UD against him in 1977.

It was after that fight that George got his "vision" and joined the God Squad. Ali messed with George's mind in Zaire. Foreman admitted that.

The fight with Young should not have stood as an Ali victory, though. Likewise for the Norton defense. The Lyle stoppage was pretty suspect, given the way the fight was going.

Of course, these were all excellent opponents, & Ali was quite old by the time he faced them (especially Young & Norton, who came post-Manila).

[NazNaci1]

Great post, Ezzard, as usual.

Ali wins due to his skills but moreso his psychological advantage, which he would relentless play on.

[Brute]

Ali made 10 successful defenses of his title after beating Foreman. One of those defenses was against Jimmy Young who went on to knock Big George down on the way to a UD against him in 1977.

It was after that fight that George got his "vision" and joined the God Squad. Ali messed with George's mind in Zaire. Foreman admitted that.

The fight with Young should not have stood as an Ali victory, though. Likewise for the Norton defense. The Lyle stoppage was pretty suspect, given the way the fight was going.

Of course, these were all excellent opponents, & Ali was quite old by the time he faced them (especially Young & Norton, who came post-Manila).

What did Young do to win against Ali? Stick his head through the ropes to avoid being hit?

[Goodnight, Irene]

What did Ali do to beat Young? Get pasted & miss every other shot he threw? He win eight rounds just for showing up & missing every jab he attempted, did he?

I'm so fvcking sick of hearing how Young, "got what he deserved for cheap tactics," or, "didn't take the Championship away," from Ali. Give me a break.

Punches thrown, punches landed, accuracy --- all kind of important to scoring a fight. All areas Young not only won, but at times outright dominated Ali. It's a rare day indeed I ever seen anyone say Ali won the fight without resorting to the usual, "Young didn't deserve to win in that style." No one ever says Ali did the better work, caused the greater damage, outpunched Young. Why would they?

Young won, whether you like the way he did it or not. It's the same syndrome all Puerto Ricans suffer from in failing (refusing) to understand how De La Hoya beat Trinidad when he was guilty of running.

[Brute]

The three guys at ringside saw it this way.
Judge Kelly 72-65 Ali
Judge Barrett 70-68 Ali
Judge Moore 71-68 Ali.

Were you even alive when the fight happened?

[Brute]

Maybe you should go down to one of the boxing organisations and offer your services as a referee or judge. You can obviously see things not visible to others.

[Goodnight, Irene]

We weren't alive to experience the magic & charisma of Ali first-hand, Barry.

Maybe that's why we can't see the punches land Brute does. LOL. As expected, my claim to Young hitting Ali a hell of a lot more than Ali hit Young goes uncontested.

In all seriousness, Brute, "the judges saw it this way," &, "were you even alive then?" are just the perfect manner of response I would expect to hammer home my point about Ali getting by on popularity in a fight he didn't do any of the greater damage or point-scoring in.

Thanks for the vidication

[Brute]

Maybe you should go down to one of the boxing organisations and offer your services as a referee or judge. You can obviously see things not visible to others.

Man, I don't want to hear that lame bull. I'm a fan of the sport and call things as I see them. I do not award points for flash w/no substance. Which is what Ali was doing in his fight against Young or the third Norton fight.

Did you and Granberry have grandfathers on Ali's jury?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Yet again, I am free to say with complete impugnity that Young outpunched Ali over & over & over.

Why? Because that's what happened...& no amount of facetious one-liners from Brute will change reality.

[man]

George improved greatly as a fighter post Ziare.

i thought he was really not improved against lyle.

[man]

Who knows? .

After his loss, George did not cave in emotionally. This only happened after he lost to Jimmy Young.

i think i remember an interview with foreman where he
said he struggled with the loss for a year.

[Brute]

Yet again, I am free to say with complete impugnity that Young outpunched Ali over & over & over.

Why? Because that's what happened...& no amount of facetious one-liners from Brute will change reality.

What is your next stupid question? Something like "Who would win between Alexander the Great and George Patton using lances?"

[man]

i think ali would have won even more decisively. knowing
he can stand the punishment would have made he himself
more confident and foreman more careful and thus throwing
less. so the superior boxer would win once pure power was
not the issue - and that was ali.

if for eight rounds going forward, having a relatively easy
to hit target in front of view while being one of boxing hardest
hitters ever - what could you possibly come up with?

styles make fights. and while it seems frazier and norton were
tailormade for foreman and looked way worse than they actually
were ... it was the same for george with ali, just the other way
round. i do not see him beat ali within two or three years after
zaire. ali did not fade that quickly.

and what people seem to forget (not at last due to the twisted
myth the makers of "when we were kings" created): ali was
ahead on all scorecards, on two by three and on one by two
rounds. foreman was in fact never really in that fight. the rope
segments give a wrong impression.

i think as foreman's trainer you must have really suffered at
times. look the first round against frazier (II) and how foreman
keeps missing and missing with almost every punch for a whole
round. as strong as he was - in his first career he was not too
accurate, and not fast either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgBQJsq ... re=related

foreman was no match for ali. his only superior department was
strength and this was neutralized by ali's stunning absorption quality.
how you can take this amount of body punching from a heavyweight
is beyond my imagination.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Yet again, I am free to say with complete impugnity that Young outpunched Ali over & over & over.

Why? Because that's what happened...& no amount of facetious one-liners from Brute will change reality.

What is your next stupid question? Something like "Who would win between Alexander the Great and George Patton using lances?"

And again...

Young out-threw Ali. Young out-landed Ali. Young out-punched & out-fought Ali.

Cue Brute's next transparent dodge of these incontrovertible facts.

[Goodnight, Irene]

George improved greatly as a fighter post Ziare.

i thought he was really not improved against lyle.

Of course, he went downhill, as we see between 1976-77. John has always held the bizarre view that Foreman somehow went forward as a fighter after Zaire. Guess what George would tell John about that?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Why bother? Because it amuses me (albeit only slightly) to make them squirm as they read reality. Clearly, friends like Brute go to great pains to avoid reality within their own head whenever someone like Ali comes up, so they need a dose of the good stuff when they're here D

Young kicked Ali's ass, & like I say, Brute can't come in here & say, "Well, Ali did this in this round, or fought well in that round," can he? No, he cannot, all he can resort to is cheap one-liners which move the conversation away from the fight itself. Why? We know why...

[Goodnight, Irene]

Would love to see Brute's scorecard from the fight. Four-point deductions for putting your head between the ropes, & a smashed bottle of booze all over the TV screen everytime Young breaks Ali's eardrum during the fight (as Ali himself acknowledged)

Oh, the audacity of that wicked little Jimmy Young...If only he had the decency to take his licking like other lackeys, such as Dunn & co...