Heres my list:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Roy Jones
3. Sam Langford
4. Stanley Ketchell
5. Harry Greb
6. Marvin Hagler
7. Carlos Monzon
8. Mickey Walker
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Bob Fitzimmons
Please share your top 10
SHOULD I MAKE AN ALL TIME MIDDLEWEIGHT TOURNAMENT?????
TOP 10 MIDDLWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME. send in your top 10
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
1. Harry Greb
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Sugar Ray Robinson (was too inconsistent at middle to be my #1)
5. Charley Burley (one of the most avoided fighters ever)
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Tiger Flowers
8. Jake LaMotta
9. Tony Zale
10. Billy Conn
(on the bubble- Marcel Cerdan, Emile Griffith, and Dick Tiger).
Only problem with your list from me Brockton is Langford. He is agruably the greatest fighter ever but was never at just one weight. He was great from flyweight to heavyweight, but never fought exclusively at one weight, which is hard, for me, to rate him at one weight class.
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Sugar Ray Robinson (was too inconsistent at middle to be my #1)
5. Charley Burley (one of the most avoided fighters ever)
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Tiger Flowers
8. Jake LaMotta
9. Tony Zale
10. Billy Conn
(on the bubble- Marcel Cerdan, Emile Griffith, and Dick Tiger).
Only problem with your list from me Brockton is Langford. He is agruably the greatest fighter ever but was never at just one weight. He was great from flyweight to heavyweight, but never fought exclusively at one weight, which is hard, for me, to rate him at one weight class.
Sam Langford great from fly-heavy?? 
Lets not over do Sam Langford here
He like many boxers may have passed through the lighter weights whilst `Very young` but he would not have been a top contender at anything below middle.
Ezzard Charles deserves more than a mention at middle because he fought and beat a seasoned Burley at the weight, whilst he himself was still quite new in the pro ranks.
Lets not over do Sam Langford here
He like many boxers may have passed through the lighter weights whilst `Very young` but he would not have been a top contender at anything below middle.
Ezzard Charles deserves more than a mention at middle because he fought and beat a seasoned Burley at the weight, whilst he himself was still quite new in the pro ranks.
re
Actually, if Langford could have kept his weight down he would have been a contender at both lightweight and welterweight. He beat the lightweight champion and best lightweight in a non-title bout and drew with arguably the best welterweight around the same time. Anything from lightweight to heavyweight Langford would have been world champion if just given the chance! Archie Moore was also one of the top and absolutely most avoided middleweights for over ten years.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
Sherlock, Robinson lost too great middleweights but ALWAYS BEAT THEM IN REMATCHES. the only reason he lost was because he was out of his prime, he was inactive for 3 years. and still an aging robinson was able to knock out a indestructable gene fullmer. THE ROBINSON THAT FIRST WON THE MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE OVER LA MOTTA WAS STILL IN HIS PRIME AND THAT ROBINSON IS THE GREATEST MIDDLEWEIGHT OF ALL TIME. That robinson was special.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
Billy Conn was a middleweight.
I rate ezzard at light heavyweight because he was at his best at light heavyweight. he was the best light heavyweight ever.
How could u not have roy jones on ur list. Do u realize how unbeatable he is at middlewieght. with a hurt back he easily beat hopkins and I think he would beat most of the middlewights of all time. HEs so skilled and fast. I think jones would beat hagler. U guys underestimate how good roy jones is. He made all the top contenders and champions look like journeyman.
I rate ezzard at light heavyweight because he was at his best at light heavyweight. he was the best light heavyweight ever.
How could u not have roy jones on ur list. Do u realize how unbeatable he is at middlewieght. with a hurt back he easily beat hopkins and I think he would beat most of the middlewights of all time. HEs so skilled and fast. I think jones would beat hagler. U guys underestimate how good roy jones is. He made all the top contenders and champions look like journeyman.
I don't rate Jones at middleweight because he was more dominant at LH. At middleweight his only significant victory was over Hopkins, with the only other victories of merit being over Malinga and Tate. Jones no doubt is the greatest at SM and top ten LH, but at middle achievements at the highest level are lacking.BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
How could u not have roy jones on ur list. Do u realize how unbeatable he is at middlewieght. with a hurt back he easily beat hopkins and I think he would beat most of the middlewights of all time. HEs so skilled and fast. I think jones would beat hagler. U guys underestimate how good roy jones is. He made all the top contenders and champions look like journeyman.
And I agree with your assessment of Robinson, but when I make my all time lists I strive on consistent and stability at that weights highest tier, which is why I have Greb, Hagler, and Monzon ahead of him. By talent I totally agree, Robinson is supreme.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
The robinson who won his first middleweight title at age 29 was The robinson who I think was the greatest middleweight ever. At 30, he bumped up to face maxim for the Light-H title and weighed in at only 157 to maxim's 173 yet he easily outboxed and outworked maxim fro 12 rounds and was well on his way to victory. Robinson when he was inactive for 3 years lost some of his speed and boxing skills when he came back and he went from immortal to very good when he came back. lol. I just think the night he won his first midddleweight title that period of one year he was the greatest middleweight ever, thats why its hard too rate the middleeweights because a lot of fighters did well in each weight class.
Just because ROy Jones didnt stay in the weight class long doesnt mean he doesnt get recogniton. I think when he was a middleweight he was a this best and nearly unbeatable. But he got too big and still dominated super M and light H. Middelweight and super M he was at his best.
Just because ROy Jones didnt stay in the weight class long doesnt mean he doesnt get recogniton. I think when he was a middleweight he was a this best and nearly unbeatable. But he got too big and still dominated super M and light H. Middelweight and super M he was at his best.
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tiredoldngrey
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 442
- Joined: 23 May 2005, 12:36
For the sake of debate and in no order Ketchel, Greb, Freddie Steele, Hagler, Ezzard Charles (@ 33-2-1, 21KOs), Monzon, Zale (the one guy of that era Robinson didn't fight;one streak of 29-4, 25kos, 3 fights w/world champs, 8 others with top10 guys, 5 with HoFers), Burley, Fullmer (from 56-63, he was 23-3-2, 5kos, 6-2-3 against HoFers)
Re: re
Have a look at how Archie did against the other top avoided middleweight fighters of the day, he was good at middle but he definetly wasn`t the best around at that time.barry wrote:Actually, if Langford could have kept his weight down he would have been a contender at both lightweight and welterweight. He beat the lightweight champion and best lightweight in a non-title bout and drew with arguably the best welterweight around the same time. Anything from lightweight to heavyweight Langford would have been world champion if just given the chance! Archie Moore was also one of the top and absolutely most avoided middleweights for over ten years.
No weights were given for the Joe Gans and Joe Walcott fights, but these were indicaters that he weighed a good 10stone plus, way above the Fly limit even for back then.
Agree he must be included in the top ten though
Thought I would add this little bit on Sam Langfords fight with Joe Gans, goes some way of explaining how a great fighter in his prime looses against a future great fighter.
Consider Gans fight with the great Sam Langford on Dec. 8, 1903. Langford was the most avoided fighter in boxing history. Sam was the larger of the two, a natural welterweight at the time. This fight was fought in Boston the day after Gans had fought a no decision bout with black welterweight Dave Holly in Philadelphia (Gans won the newspaper decision). This means that Gans had to travel by train up the eastern seaboard from Philly to Boston for a fight the very next day. Gans admitted that fighting two days in a row and making the trip had sapped his stamina. Nevertheless, Gans dominated early in the fight before fading from lag in the later rounds and losing a close decision. Fleischer penned, (1938, 164-165; 1939, 130), “Gans opened up the first round with a triple left hook. As Sam drew back after the third blow, Gans quick as a flash, sprang forward and landed a terrific right to the jaw, and from that point until the fifth round, Langford seemed scared stiff and did his utmost to avoid infighting.”
The Boston Globe described events in the following manner, “Langford was clever and the aggressor but he had a wholesome respect for the power behind Gans right glove. And Gans proved early in the bout that his good right hand was his stock in trade and ever after that Langford managed to keep his right hand in readiness to stop any lead at which the champion might make…both blocked so well and slipped rushes so dexterously and sparred so gingerly that the bout became monotonous”, Dec 9 Globe. In other words it was a chess match. This fight is considered as the only fight the real Gans lost in a period of more than ten years. Considering it was his second fight within 24 hours in cities 300 miles apart and the quality of his opposition, Gans did very well indeed.
I think this shows why these two were held in such awe.
Consider Gans fight with the great Sam Langford on Dec. 8, 1903. Langford was the most avoided fighter in boxing history. Sam was the larger of the two, a natural welterweight at the time. This fight was fought in Boston the day after Gans had fought a no decision bout with black welterweight Dave Holly in Philadelphia (Gans won the newspaper decision). This means that Gans had to travel by train up the eastern seaboard from Philly to Boston for a fight the very next day. Gans admitted that fighting two days in a row and making the trip had sapped his stamina. Nevertheless, Gans dominated early in the fight before fading from lag in the later rounds and losing a close decision. Fleischer penned, (1938, 164-165; 1939, 130), “Gans opened up the first round with a triple left hook. As Sam drew back after the third blow, Gans quick as a flash, sprang forward and landed a terrific right to the jaw, and from that point until the fifth round, Langford seemed scared stiff and did his utmost to avoid infighting.”
The Boston Globe described events in the following manner, “Langford was clever and the aggressor but he had a wholesome respect for the power behind Gans right glove. And Gans proved early in the bout that his good right hand was his stock in trade and ever after that Langford managed to keep his right hand in readiness to stop any lead at which the champion might make…both blocked so well and slipped rushes so dexterously and sparred so gingerly that the bout became monotonous”, Dec 9 Globe. In other words it was a chess match. This fight is considered as the only fight the real Gans lost in a period of more than ten years. Considering it was his second fight within 24 hours in cities 300 miles apart and the quality of his opposition, Gans did very well indeed.
I think this shows why these two were held in such awe.
Best Middleweights
Off the top of my head in no particular order:
1. Ray Robinson
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Charley Burley
5. Marcel Cerdan
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Stanley Ketchel
8. Harry Greb
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Dick Tiger
1. Ray Robinson
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Charley Burley
5. Marcel Cerdan
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Stanley Ketchel
8. Harry Greb
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Dick Tiger
After 1900:
1. Hagler
2. Greb
3. Robinson
4. Burley
5. Monzon
6. LaMotta
7. Hopkins
8. Walker
9. Zale
10. Ketchel
Ezzard Charles doesn't seemed to have had many fights where he weighed 160 or under, and as far as I can see he weighed over 160 for virtually all of his most noteworthy fights (even if his opponent weighed less than 160) so I don't see him as a middleweight. Archie Moore certainly had more fights as a legitimate middle, as did Tommy Loughran, Billy Conn and other notable light heavies, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. That's my take for the moment, anyway.
1. Hagler
2. Greb
3. Robinson
4. Burley
5. Monzon
6. LaMotta
7. Hopkins
8. Walker
9. Zale
10. Ketchel
Ezzard Charles doesn't seemed to have had many fights where he weighed 160 or under, and as far as I can see he weighed over 160 for virtually all of his most noteworthy fights (even if his opponent weighed less than 160) so I don't see him as a middleweight. Archie Moore certainly had more fights as a legitimate middle, as did Tommy Loughran, Billy Conn and other notable light heavies, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. That's my take for the moment, anyway.
Great Middleweights
Charles had a lot of fights at slightly over 160, but you could say the same about a lot of middleweights. Charles never had a title fight at middleweight, so he didn't have to get down to 160, but he often fought at about 161 or 162 lbs., kind of like Jake LaMotta. LaMotta usually weighed more than 160 lbs. for his non-title fights, but had to get down to 160 for his title fights. You could say the same for a lot of middleweights.
When Charles got out of the army in 1946, he then was more of a lightheavyweight. Before Ezzard went into the army, I would say that he was more of a middleweight for the most part, usually fighting at a little more than 160 lbs.
When Charles got out of the army in 1946, he then was more of a lightheavyweight. Before Ezzard went into the army, I would say that he was more of a middleweight for the most part, usually fighting at a little more than 160 lbs.
good point about Charles from 1940-1943 being a legitimate middle, but the two decision victories over Burley seem to be the only stand-out victories at that weight, although I don't know the details of the other fights (and beating Burley is certainly a big deal). He did beat Maxim during that time, but he weighed 165. Not knocking Charles at all though--he is a great one and no doubt could have been a champ at middleweight if he had been given a title shot, and certainly he deserves credit as perhaps THE best light heavy if not also a top 20 all-time heavyweight.
Interesting to note how many fights guys like Young Stribling and Mike McTigue and others had at 160-165 lbs., frequently against name middleweights. When you start digging, a lot of the top light heavies could be ranked at middle if the criteria is how they performed at 160 to 165 in those pre-super middleweight days. I guess it was a matter of where the opportunity was--drop 5 pounds for a middleweight shot or keep the weight for lightheavy.
Interesting to note how many fights guys like Young Stribling and Mike McTigue and others had at 160-165 lbs., frequently against name middleweights. When you start digging, a lot of the top light heavies could be ranked at middle if the criteria is how they performed at 160 to 165 in those pre-super middleweight days. I guess it was a matter of where the opportunity was--drop 5 pounds for a middleweight shot or keep the weight for lightheavy.
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15659
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
My 10 top list of the all time middleweights:
1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Harry Greb
4. Stanley Ketchel
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Emile Griffith
8. Mickey Walker
9. Dick Tiger
10. Gene Fullmer
Honorable mention: Tiger Flowers, Roy Jones, Jr., Rodrigo Valdez, Michael Nunn, Billy Papke, Bob Fitzsimmons, Tony Zale, Marcel Cerdan, Jake LaMotta and James Toney
1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Harry Greb
4. Stanley Ketchel
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. Emile Griffith
8. Mickey Walker
9. Dick Tiger
10. Gene Fullmer
Honorable mention: Tiger Flowers, Roy Jones, Jr., Rodrigo Valdez, Michael Nunn, Billy Papke, Bob Fitzsimmons, Tony Zale, Marcel Cerdan, Jake LaMotta and James Toney