Adam Smith

[Deserter]

If you are smart enough and prepared to work hard, it doesn`t matter where you come from or what your background is.

I`m from perhaps the worst council estate in West Yorkshire. Never stopped me from doing anything in my life.

I would actually say growing up in the shit, has given me a work ethic that has contributed very positively to me achieveing what I wanted from life. You deal with the shit and get on it with it. Accept that some things you cannot change and concentrate on the things you can.

While I completely agree with your concluding philosophy, unfortunately the main tenor of your argument simply isn't true. The numbers don't lie and it very clearly does matter where people come from, what sort of access they have to education etc.
Your arguement that it never stopped you can't be extrapolated out to represent the entire population - it's akin to the 83-year-old smoker denying it causes cancer as he's never had cancer.

[mickey1975]

Which estate,Forcefraser?

[palooka]

It's not just a matter of the availability of good education, strong guidance, connections and close examples of success. How people speak to and treat you have an effect; if you grow up in a shit hole and you are strong minded enough and intelligent to get out then more power to you; you deserve credit and are an example to others but are definitely not an example that the 'system' works. You are in the minority, the majority of those on estates work but get nowhere. They get tired before their time and lose heart.

Adam Smith had a great start and has worked to get a plum job, nice and warm, clean clothes on every day, people fussing over him and wanting to please. It must be f*cking lovely but it's a different world to most of our experiences. I thought he were doing a good job but I'm no expert, just watch the sport, make a few posts and read the magazines.

[Coco]

I like to think i've done well enough in life, but i've always worked for myself, the corporate ladder is littered with nepotism/old school tie etc folk without those advantages need to be work harder and to be clearly better just to stand still

[palooka]

If you're in a good environment with people around you that are doing well and living a varied life with people around who enjoy their work, have plenty of surplus cash and have had a real help at the start of their lives then the world must just be their oyster. You've got to play the cards you're dealt, Smith has played his; he's worked hard and not messed up so he's the rewards.

[orbtastic]

It's not like he joined SKY last month, he was doing commentating over 11 years ago.

[lefty]

If you are smart enough and prepared to work hard, it doesn`t matter where you come from or what your background is.

I`m from perhaps the worst council estate in West Yorkshire. Never stopped me from doing anything in my life.

I would actually say growing up in the shit, has given me a work ethic that has contributed very positively to me achieveing what I wanted from life. You deal with the shit and get on it with it. Accept that some things you cannot change and concentrate on the things you can.

While I completely agree with your concluding philosophy, unfortunately the main tenor of your argument simply isn't true. The numbers don't lie and it very clearly does matter where people come from, what sort of access they have to education etc.
Your arguement that it never stopped you can't be extrapolated out to represent the entire population - it's akin to the 83-year-old smoker denying it causes cancer as he's never had cancer.

What was your background then deserter if you dont mind me asking?You seem like a guy who's done well for himself

[SteveDow]

It's not just a matter of the availability of good education, strong guidance, connections and close examples of success. How people speak to and treat you have an effect; if you grow up in a shit hole and you are strong minded enough and intelligent to get out then more power to you; you deserve credit and are an example to others but are definitely not an example that the 'system' works. You are in the minority, the majority of those on estates work but get nowhere. They get tired before their time and lose heart.

Adam Smith had a great start and has worked to get a plum job, nice and warm, clean clothes on every day, people fussing over him and wanting to please. It must be f*cking lovely but it's a different world to most of our experiences. I thought he were doing a good job but I'm no expert, just watch the sport, make a few posts and read the magazines.

I also grew up on a council estate, worked hard and got into Oxford and now have a great job as a lawyer in the City so I agree with the sentiments that by working hard you can achieve a lot despite where you are from. However, in certain careers where there is less of a meritocracy, like the media and particularly television, there is no doubt whatsoever that having a well to do upbringing brings about opportunities a person would not otherwise have. I've seen it in lots of cases with people who come from very rich families who are not particularly bright end up in very well paid jobs because of their connections rather than their ability. This is what frustrates people I think and rightly so.

[lefty]

It's not just a matter of the availability of good education, strong guidance, connections and close examples of success. How people speak to and treat you have an effect; if you grow up in a shit hole and you are strong minded enough and intelligent to get out then more power to you; you deserve credit and are an example to others but are definitely not an example that the 'system' works. You are in the minority, the majority of those on estates work but get nowhere. They get tired before their time and lose heart.

Adam Smith had a great start and has worked to get a plum job, nice and warm, clean clothes on every day, people fussing over him and wanting to please. It must be f*cking lovely but it's a different world to most of our experiences. I thought he were doing a good job but I'm no expert, just watch the sport, make a few posts and read the magazines.

I also grew up on a council estate, worked hard and got into Oxford and now have a great job as a lawyer in the City so I agree with the sentiments that by working hard you can achieve a lot despite where you are from. However, in certain careers where there is less of a meritocracy, like the media and particularly television, there is no doubt whatsoever that having a well to do upbringing brings about opportunities a person would not otherwise have. I've seen it in lots of cases with people who come from very rich families who are not particularly bright end up in very well paid jobs because of their connections rather than their ability. This is what frustrates people I think and rightly so.

Great post,I completely agree that certain careers its definietly the adage of who you know rather than what you know.Like you said,it depends on the career I guess.On a side topic and abit off kilter,when my uncle first graduated from oxford he worked for this jewish family owned company and he was the only non-jew who worked there i think and from what ive heard they treated him appalling and basically used him as a modern day slave.

[Deserter]

What was your background then deserter if you dont mind me asking?You seem like a guy who's done well for himself

It's all relative Lefty. I've done OK, but there are plenty who've done better. At the risk of sounding philosophical, it's all about being happy within yourself.
As for background, nothing particularly interesting - went to a comprehensive in a small town in Somerset that is nothing but a blot on the landscape. Parents were complete opposites - father was Irish manual worker with no education to speak of who spent most of his time frequenting the local boozers, while my mother taught French and German and was university-educated. I had a period in my teens where I could have gone either way, but believe it or not it was doing Tae Kwon Do that sorted me out in terms of removing me from bad influences and giving me a degree of self-belief. By contrast, my sister who is just a year younger than me didn't even finish school, has three kids from two different men and is now living with a third (who thankfully is a good guy) and has a very different 'world outlook', shall we say.
I am a huge believer in individuals taking self-responsibility, but it also frustrates me when I see the amount of wasted 'talent' out there. What I particularly hate is the mentality that doesn't encourage kids to aim high - whether it's the teacher or career advisor pouring scorn on someone's dream or a parent who doesn't make any effort to help their children in their aspirations. There was a brilliant piece by India Knight in The Sunday Times on this subject recently in relation to state-educated kids getting into Oxford or Cambridge. What she rightly identified as a big part of the problem is that many aren't even 'allowed' to think it could be for them by those influencers around them, which is just tragic when you think about it.

[lefty]

What was your background then deserter if you dont mind me asking?You seem like a guy who's done well for himself

It's all relative Lefty. I've done OK, but there are plenty who've done better. At the risk of sounding philosophical, it's all about being happy within yourself.
As for background, nothing particularly interesting - went to a comprehensive in a small town in Somerset that is nothing but a blot on the landscape. Parents were complete opposites - father was Irish manual worker with no education to speak of who spent most of his time frequenting the local boozers, while my mother taught French and German and was university-educated. I had a period in my teens where I could have gone either way, but believe it or not it was doing Tae Kwon Do that sorted me out in terms of removing me from bad influences and giving me a degree of self-belief. By contrast, my sister who is just a year younger than me didn't even finish school, has three kids from two different men and is now living with a third (who thankfully is a good guy) and has a very different 'world outlook', shall we say.
I am a huge believer in individuals taking self-responsibility, but it also frustrates me when I see the amount of wasted 'talent' out there. What I particularly hate is the mentality that doesn't encourage kids to aim high - whether it's the teacher or career advisor pouring scorn on someone's dream or a parent who doesn't make any effort to help their children in their aspirations. There was a brilliant piece by India Knight in The Sunday Times on this subject recently in relation to state-educated kids getting into Oxford or Cambridge. What she rightly identified as a big part of the problem is that many aren't even 'allowed' to think it could be for them by those influencers around them, which is just tragic when you think about it.

Great post and thanks for being so open I agree with your way of thinking.Its very true that is about being happy within yourself and also having balance in your life I think.To be honest I sound like your sister in certain aspects in that school to me was about socialising and having a laugh,if i would of known then what i know now i would of been harder working but when you're young you dont tend to think of the consequences of not studying to your best ability.Although on the same token my school was pretty awful to be fair and pretty much a wild west enviroment,trying to study in there was almost impossible and the school actually got closed down the year i left.

[Deserter]

when you're young you dont tend to think of the consequences of not studying to your best ability.Although on the same token my school was pretty awful to be fair and pretty much a wild west enviroment,trying to study in there was almost impossible and the school actually got closed down the year i left.

And this is my point - I have immense respect for those like Steve Dow and Force Fraser who have clearly done well in the face of adverse conditions, but you can't dismiss others simply because they didn't have that fortitude or presence of mind at a similar age.

[lefty]

when you're young you dont tend to think of the consequences of not studying to your best ability.Although on the same token my school was pretty awful to be fair and pretty much a wild west enviroment,trying to study in there was almost impossible and the school actually got closed down the year i left.

And this is my point - I have immense respect for those like Steve Dow and Force Fraser who have clearly done well in the face of adverse conditions, but you can't dismiss others simply because they didn't have that fortitude or presence of mind at a similar age.

Well on that point i agree

[SteveDow]

when you're young you dont tend to think of the consequences of not studying to your best ability.Although on the same token my school was pretty awful to be fair and pretty much a wild west enviroment,trying to study in there was almost impossible and the school actually got closed down the year i left.

And this is my point - I have immense respect for those like Steve Dow and Force Fraser who have clearly done well in the face of adverse conditions, but you can't dismiss others simply because they didn't have that fortitude or presence of mind at a similar age.

Thanks Deserter and Lefty. I completely agree with you on these issues. My secondary school was pretty awful to be honest and the teachers were very negative on the whole and there were lots of people who could have done so much better had they been given more encouragement and direction. I've always been pretty single-minded and stubborn. In a way I've always thought too highly of myself and that's why I decided to apply to Oxford as I genuinely believed I could get in. I almost did it to prove a point to myself, as well as for the career prospects and there were teachers who were shocked when I managed it, despite my good grades. This is simply because it just doesn't happen to most normal working kids. However, lots of people don't have that inner drive and belief and need guiding and nurturing and this is where lots of working class kids are failed by their schools.

[lefty]

when you're young you dont tend to think of the consequences of not studying to your best ability.Although on the same token my school was pretty awful to be fair and pretty much a wild west enviroment,trying to study in there was almost impossible and the school actually got closed down the year i left.

And this is my point - I have immense respect for those like Steve Dow and Force Fraser who have clearly done well in the face of adverse conditions, but you can't dismiss others simply because they didn't have that fortitude or presence of mind at a similar age.

Thanks Deserter and Lefty. I completely agree with you on these issues. My secondary school was pretty awful to be honest and the teachers were very negative on the whole and there were lots of people who could have done so much better had they been given more encouragement and direction. I've always been pretty single-minded and stubborn. In a way I've always thought too highly of myself and that's why I decided to apply to Oxford as I genuinely believed I could get in. I almost did it to prove a point to myself, as well as for the career prospects and there were teachers who were shocked when I managed it, despite my good grades. This is simply because it just doesn't happen to most normal working kids. However, lots of people don't have that inner drive and belief and need guiding and nurturing and this is where lots of working class kids are failed by their schools.

You're an interesting guy steve and an inspirational figure!Love to hear more about you but then im inquisive/nosey!Ha

[orbtastic]

Report out today that says Grammar school kids fared no better on the social and economic ladders than their comprehensive schooled peers.

All this council estate eee it were 'ard pulled meself up by t'boot straps stuff is just nonsense.

[SteveDow]

Cheers Lefty although inspirational is pushing it way too far!!

I'm just a normal working class lad who was born on Merseyside. My dad was a bus driver in my early years and my mum just looked after me and my sister at home. At school I was always clever but pretty uninterested academically until I was about 14, I did the usual stuff like getting into fights, getting drunk in parks and generally being a bit of a rebel.

Then I had an English teacher who really instilled motivation and belief in me and I started to concentrate more at school and for about 3 years I had an unbelievable focus on becoming good at my studies and getting great exam results. I probably missed out on a lot during that 3 year period but I achieved my goal of getting into Oxford so didn't mind. Once started there, I probably didn't concentrate as much as I should have but still came out with a 2.1 and had an awesome time there and made friends with people I would never have given the time of day a few years earlier.

Then I had a year of bumming around and trying to decide what I really wanted to do and as I did a law degree being a solicitor seemed like my best option.

[lefty]

Cheers Lefty although inspirational is pushing it way too far!!

I'm just a normal working class lad who was born on Merseyside. My dad was a bus driver in my early years and my mum just looked after me and my sister at home. At school I was always clever but pretty uninterested academically until I was about 14, I did the usual stuff like getting into fights, getting drunk in parks and generally being a bit of a rebel.

Then I had an English teacher who really instilled motivation and belief in me and I started to concentrate more at school and for about 3 years I had an unbelievable focus on becoming good at my studies and getting great exam results. I probably missed out on a lot during that 3 year period but I achieved my goal of getting into Oxford so didn't mind. Once started there, I probably didn't concentrate as much as I should have but still came out with a 2.1 and had an awesome time there and made friends with people I would never have given the time of day a few years earlier.

Then I had a year of bumming around and trying to decide what I really wanted to do and as I did a law degree being a solicitor seemed like my best option.

great story though!

[palooka]

It's a great story of what you can achieve if you are intelligent and get your act together at 13/14 years old. More power to you and you deserve all your success. The school I went to (Balby Carr) has had 1 person go to Oxford in the last 30 years; with 300+ pupils a year that's some going for that lad too; (think he did English, it were in all the local papers). (One out of 9,000 odd isn't inspirational though; it's miraculous).

[orbtastic]

Balby, my condolences.

[Finn]

who rattled your cage kingfinn ?
judging by your trolling clearly you have an obsessive compulsion to hate anyone with the education you so obviously lack.take my advice pal, leave chav capital coventrey, stop cheating benefits,put down the cheap supermarket cider, switch off the jeremy kyle show,clean up your piss stained bedsit and get out there and get a job instead of making jealous bitchy remarks all the time.

Thats funny considering im an insurance broker with a degree lol - From Hillfields, Coventry http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Eu ... G-C-1.html.

[Deserter]

who rattled your cage kingfinn ?
judging by your trolling clearly you have an obsessive compulsion to hate anyone with the education you so obviously lack.take my advice pal, leave chav capital coventrey, stop cheating benefits,put down the cheap supermarket cider, switch off the jeremy kyle show,clean up your piss stained bedsit and get out there and get a job instead of making jealous bitchy remarks all the time.

Thats funny considering im an insurance broker with a degree lol - From Hillfields, Coventry http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Eu ... G-C-1.html.

I went to Warwick Uni and in my first year used to travel into Cov to train in Tae Kwon Do with Jackson White, once a week at Dev Barrett's place and once a week at a school in Hillfields - used to catch the bus in to the central station and then saunter up through Hillfields in my youthful naivety and just was oblivous to its rep. Fortunately nothing happened in that time to 'educate' me otherwise!

[lefty]

who rattled your cage kingfinn ?
judging by your trolling clearly you have an obsessive compulsion to hate anyone with the education you so obviously lack.take my advice pal, leave chav capital coventrey, stop cheating benefits,put down the cheap supermarket cider, switch off the jeremy kyle show,clean up your piss stained bedsit and get out there and get a job instead of making jealous bitchy remarks all the time.

Thats funny considering im an insurance broker with a degree lol - From Hillfields, Coventry http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Eu ... G-C-1.html.

I went to Warwick Uni and in my first year used to travel into Cov to train in Tae Kwon Do with Jackson White, once a week at Dev Barrett's place and once a week at a school in Hillfields - used to catch the bus in to the central station and then saunter up through Hillfields in my youthful naivety and just was oblivous to its rep. Fortunately nothing happened in that time to 'educate' me otherwise!

who's jackson white?A famous tae kwon do guy?

[John]

Balby, my condolences.

I grew up in Balby

[lefty]

Balby, my condolences.

who's balby?