ALI VS. TYSON

zslayton · Post by **zslayton** » 13 Jun 2005, 20:46

I think on any given night Tyson would knock Ali out. However, if it was a motivated Ali (you know, if tyson called him cassius clay or something) he would box Tysons ears off, even the young one. If they fought 10 times I think Ali would win 6 or 7 of them, but Tyson, the one before the loss the Buster Douglas catches Ali with a hook like Frazier caught him with, Ali wouldn't get up.

i know i am gonna get blasted for this, but i don't think there has ever been a heavyweight with the combination of speed, power, fundamentals, chin, and heart, as the pre-buster douglas tyson.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 14 Jun 2005, 19:02

zslayton wrote:I think on any given night Tyson would knock Ali out. However, if it was a motivated Ali (you know, if tyson called him cassius clay or something) he would box Tysons ears off, even the young one. If they fought 10 times I think Ali would win 6 or 7 of them, but Tyson, the one before the loss the Buster Douglas catches Ali with a hook like Frazier caught him with, Ali wouldn't get up.

i know i am gonna get blasted for this, but i don't think there has ever been a heavyweight with the combination of speed, power, fundamentals, chin, and heart, as the pre-buster douglas tyson.

It was the same guy before Douglas as after Douglas...he was 24 years old , for God's sake...he didn't get old...he got BEAT! Most great fighters lost some fights but they all came back from defeat! Tyson self destructed...so forget that 'heart' you're talking about...every time he found himself in a competitive fight after Douglas, he failed miserably...

Douglas exposed Tyson's weakness...inability to cope with adversity...
Fights don't always go as planned...when Tyson couldn't dominate, he became frustrated, confused, angry & out of control...and he made ear eating famous...I'll call him a good fighter at one time, but not a great fighter...great fighters come back from defeat...he never did...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 14 Jun 2005, 19:07

Ok enough of this earnie shavers bullshit. the man can hit really hard but hes not a top 5 heavyweight power punhcer of all time. top ten, but not top 5. SWEET SCIENTIST, EARNIE SHAVERS CANNOT HIT HARDER THAN ROCKY MARCIANO. WHO THE HELL AS SHAVERS EVER KNOCKED OUT????? AN OLD KEN NORTON????? JIMMY YOUNG?????? THOSE ARE HIS BEST TWO??????

HMMMMM MARCIANO'S BEST KO'S ARE JERSEY JOE WALCOTT, EZZARD CHARLES. O YEAH, AND MARCIANO'S RIGHT HAND OVER WALCOTT IS STILL REGARDED AS THE BEST RIGHT HAND IN HISTORY.

DID SHAVERS EVER LAND A FAMOUS PUNCH??? I KNOW THIS, HE LANDED A FLUSH PUNCH ON HOLMES, YET COULDNT PUT HIM AWAY???? NOW COME ON. SHAVERS HIT LYLE ON THE BUTTON. HOW COME LYLE DIDNT GET KNOCKED OUT????

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 14 Jun 2005, 20:38

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:well IDIOT, I AM NOT GOING TO GO BACK 3 PAGES OF POSTS TO TRY TO FIND A QUOTE TO PROVE UR STUPID. EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS UR STUPID. THE FACT THAT YOU JUST SAID COONEY HITS HARDER THAN MARCIANO MAKES U CLUELESS AND PROVES UR NOT A TRUE BOXING FAN.

Dont go back over three pages of posts, i post rarely these days on this account, use this link, my posts on the first page go back to september 2004

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/search.php? ... =The_Power

I await you proof.

MARCIANO IS NOT MUCH SMALLER THAN JOE LOUIS BY THE WAY. HES JUST AS STRONG AND MARCIANOS BIG BONES AND TRAINS HIMSELF DOWN TO 185, LOUIS WAS ONLY 15 POUNDS HEAVIER AND TALLER.

Now you'll be telling us that Marciano was a better champion than Joe Louis! Where have i said that Joe Louis Towers over Marciano anyways?

Please son, get a clue.

I GAURANTEEE MOST EXPERTS, AND PEOPLE ON THIUS FORUM WILL RATE MARCIANO IN THE POWER CLASS AS A FOREMAN LOUIS AND TYSON. MARCIANO WAS # 14 ALL TIME POWER PUNCHERS RATED BY THE RING MAGAZINE.

Wasnt this the list that put Shavers (a guy you claim isnt an elite hitter) around the same level as True P4P hitter Thomas Hearns?

I suggest you be wary of the sources you quote.

MARCIANO HAD ONE OF THE HARDEST OVERHAND RIGHTS OF ALL TIME, PLUS A HARD LEFT HOOK THAT IS UNDERATED. HE COULD HIT WITH BOTH HANDS. he was not that small either. his legs were like tree trunks.

Jesus, MARCIANO WAS A SMALL HEAVYWEIGHT. are you now trying to disprove that?

and id take marciano by KO over cooney. why do u have something against heavyweights under 200 lbs???? like dempsey and marciano

I have no problem with Jack Dempsy, please show me where i have showed distain for any of the smaller heavyweight champions with the exception of Marciano?

You cant. Once again your assumptions have fallen apart.

Marciano may have beaten cooney, but that would have been on heart and chin, NOT the fact he held superior power.

jab · Post by **jab** » 14 Jun 2005, 22:02

Sweet Scientist wrote:
zslayton wrote:I think on any given night Tyson would knock Ali out. However, if it was a motivated Ali (you know, if tyson called him cassius clay or something) he would box Tysons ears off, even the young one. If they fought 10 times I think Ali would win 6 or 7 of them, but Tyson, the one before the loss the Buster Douglas catches Ali with a hook like Frazier caught him with, Ali wouldn't get up.

i know i am gonna get blasted for this, but i don't think there has ever been a heavyweight with the combination of speed, power, fundamentals, chin, and heart, as the pre-buster douglas tyson.
It was the same guy before Douglas as after Douglas...he was 24 years old , for God's sake...he didn't get old...he got BEAT! Most great fighters lost some fights but they all came back from defeat! Tyson self destructed...so forget that 'heart' you're talking about...every time he found himself in a competitive fight after Douglas, he failed miserably...

Douglas exposed Tyson's weakness...inability to cope with adversity...
Fights don't always go as planned...when Tyson couldn't dominate, he became frustrated, confused, angry & out of control...and he made ear eating famous...I'll call him a good fighter at one time, but not a great fighter...great fighters come back from defeat...he never did...

I agree, I will onl add what I wrote here: http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29077 :

DavidPayne wrote:
Manos on the money.

Just add in that he never fought Bowe, Mercer, Foreman, Briggs, Moorer, Tua, Byrd, Klitschko and plenty of other fighters who may have hit him back like Morrison and Witherspoon.

Just add that he never got off the floor to win.

Just add that he only fought Holyfield because he thought he was shot.

And you have his career just about summed up.

Also Maskaev, McCall, Akinwande and Ibeabuchi. Basically except for what he thought was a washed up Holyfield, he managed to avoid all decent heavyweights of the 90s.

Spinks was a washed up fatest fight weight former lt-hv who didnt fight in a year and showed up in bad shape, retired after the lousy effort. This was 3 years after he beat Holmes and wasnt the same fighter. Take a year off and then come in rusty and fat to fight a vicious puncher and see what happens. Not a representative fight by Spinks.

Holmes: 38 years old, had a two year retirement and was coming back after two losses to fight Mike Tyson. Again, a former champ dragged out from a retirement to be fed to Tyson. Again, this Holmes was a shadow of his former self and only had a 2 week training camp. Not a representative fight by Holmes.

Frank Bruno: coming after 1.5 years of inactivity to fight Mike. Already koed twice. Has anybody taken an 18 months layoff then come back to fight a champion and performed well? How he even got the fight? He certainly didnt deserve it coming right out from a semi retirement. He didnt fight anybody for the right to challenge Tyson. Would have done him good, as some of the rust would have come off.

Some of the most celebrated Tyson victories were over long inactive sacrificial lambs.

He had some genuine victories too, but he also got fed some good and former great fighters coming after very long lay offs, straight into a fight with the champ. They were set up for a fall as no one comes from such long inactivity and has any prayer of beating an active reigning champ.

And people say the 90s were bad or our modern champions fight undeserving challengers.

Tyson did not fight that well even before Buster Douglas exposed him. Lennox wanted him before and many felt that as a bigger, longer reached, stronger version of Buster Douglas, Lennox might have been the first to beat Tyson. Lewis said: ``Buster got to him before I did``

Lets talk of the 80s, Tysons supposed peak and period of invincibility:

Tillis went to fight Tyson sporting a fearsome record of having lost 8 times already, 3 times by ko. Tyson floored him in the 4th but couldnt ko him. Tyson won a 10 round UD, while 3 years earlier Whitherspoon koed Tillis in one round.

his effort against Buster Douglas was pathetic: Douglas went into that fight having already lost 4 fights, including 3 losses by way of ko. And that was the prime Mike Tyson.

Ok, Tyson did unify the divisions and best some good guys, not denying that. But some of his celebrated victories are way overblown. He was lucky to fight in a weak era and by koing a lot of bums he built a fear factor that helped him. But fighters that were fit, technically sound, had heart and were not intimidated beat him. He didnt have much confidence to fight through adversity.
He is not in the same league as Ali, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Liston and Frazier.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 14 Jun 2005, 23:56

POWER WHAT THE fornicate DO YOU HAVE AGINST ROCKY MARCIANO. NO ROCKY IS NOT AS GOOD AS CHAMP AS JOE LOUIS. I NEVER SAID THAT. JOE LOUIS IS THE GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT WHO EVER LIVED. I RATE MARCIANO # 3. NOW IF U HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH JACK DEMPSEY, WHATS UR PORBLEM WITH ROCKY MARCIANO?????

did u lose a a lot of money betting against him???? POWER U OBVISELY HAVE SOMETHING AGAINST ROCKY MARCIANO. PLEASE TELL US ALL WHAT IT IS. U HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH JACK DEMPSEY, JOE LOUIS OR ANYONE ELSE YET U DO WITH ROCKY MARCIANO??

RING MAGAZINE RATED COONEY # 53 ON HARDEST PUNHCERS LIST. THEY RATED MARCIANO # 14. U TELL ME WHO HITS HARDER. DONT GET IN THIS ONE WITH ME BUDDY, U WONT WIN. UR NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 15 Jun 2005, 00:00

The Ring Magazine hardest punchers list was thrown together by a f'n retard.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Jun 2005, 00:09

tantum. most experts would rate marcianos punching power over gerry cooneys. so end of storY. STOP BITCHING ABOUT AN ARUGMENT U CANT WIN.

now back to tyson-ali

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 15 Jun 2005, 21:12

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Ok enough of this earnie shavers bullshit. the man can hit really hard but hes not a top 5 heavyweight power punhcer of all time. top ten, but not top 5. SWEET SCIENTIST, EARNIE SHAVERS CANNOT HIT HARDER THAN ROCKY MARCIANO. WHO THE HELL AS SHAVERS EVER KNOCKED OUT????? AN OLD KEN NORTON????? JIMMY YOUNG?????? THOSE ARE HIS BEST TWO??????

HMMMMM MARCIANO'S BEST KO'S ARE JERSEY JOE WALCOTT, EZZARD CHARLES. O YEAH, AND MARCIANO'S RIGHT HAND OVER WALCOTT IS STILL REGARDED AS THE BEST RIGHT HAND IN HISTORY.

DID SHAVERS EVER LAND A FAMOUS PUNCH??? I KNOW THIS, HE LANDED A FLUSH PUNCH ON HOLMES, YET COULDNT PUT HIM AWAY???? NOW COME ON. SHAVERS HIT LYLE ON THE BUTTON. HOW COME LYLE DIDNT GET KNOCKED OUT????

First, Marciano's great KO's you speak of were against a 39 year old Walcott who was piss pounding Rocky until he ran out of gas and into a great right hand...and then against a 34 year old Ezzard Charles who, in the 2nd fight, would have scored a TKO against Marciano by today's referees...they'd never let Rocky continue with that gory split nose in 2005...ponder that a while...

Second, there are a lot of great punching heavyweights that never landed a "famous punch", but could still hit hard...the '70's offered more competition in that division than any time in history...put Shavers in another era and he would have landed some "famous punches"...put Marciano in the '70's against Frazier/Foreman/Holmes/Ali/Shavers/Norton and he doesn't go 6-0...he'd have trouble going 3-3...a lot of trouble!

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Jun 2005, 23:11

I disagree with him going 3-3. He had a very good chance going undefeated. but I agree it was a tougher and a llot tougher fore marciano too go undefeated had he been in that era.

SweetScientist wrote:

First, Marciano's great KO's you speak of were against a 39 year old Walcott who was piss pounding Rocky until he ran out of gas and into a great right hand...and then against a 34 year old Ezzard Charles who, in the 2nd fight, would have scored a TKO against Marciano by today's referees...they'd never let Rocky continue with that gory split nose in 2005...ponder that a while...

first of ezzard was 32 and marciano was 30. only two years difference. 2nd and this is a thing EVERYONE DOESNT REALIZE. Marciano was dominating the fight, knocked charles down in the 2nd and was leading on the scorecards by rounds 6-1, 5-1-1, and 6-1. that means Marciano was dominating him. NOW. the blows that split marciano's nose were elbows NOT PUNCHES. by todays rules, AND ACCIDENTAL ELBOW GOES STRAIGHT TO THE SCORE CARDS RIGHT?????? NOW IN THAT CASE, MARCIANO WINS A TECHNICAL DECISION. MARCIANO HAD VIRTUALLY WON ALMOST EVERY ROUND AND THIS FIGHT TODAY WOULD HAVE GONE TO SCORE CARD AND MARCIANO WOULD RETAIN HIS TITLE. SO PONDER THAT MAN.

and walcott never ran out of gas. did u see the fight??/ walcott had 20 year old legs and stamina that night walcott was doing great buddy. marciano cam on strong and nailed the perfect punch. it wasnt because walcott ran out of gas. GO WATCH THE FIGHT.

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 16 Jun 2005, 11:51

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:POWER WHAT THE fornicate DO YOU HAVE AGINST ROCKY MARCIANO. NO ROCKY IS NOT AS GOOD AS CHAMP AS JOE LOUIS. I NEVER SAID THAT. JOE LOUIS IS THE GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT WHO EVER LIVED. I RATE MARCIANO # 3. NOW IF U HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH JACK DEMPSEY, WHATS UR PORBLEM WITH ROCKY MARCIANO?????

did u lose a a lot of money betting against him???? POWER U OBVISELY HAVE SOMETHING AGAINST ROCKY MARCIANO. PLEASE TELL US ALL WHAT IT IS. U HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH JACK DEMPSEY, JOE LOUIS OR ANYONE ELSE YET U DO WITH ROCKY MARCIANO??

lots of hot air, yet to address the points made.

Why havent you found this famous "cooney better than everyone quote" you accused me of?

RING MAGAZINE RATED COONEY # 53 ON HARDEST PUNHCERS LIST. THEY RATED MARCIANO # 14. U TELL ME WHO HITS HARDER. DONT GET IN THIS ONE WITH ME BUDDY, U WONT WIN. UR NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Where did they rate Thomas Hearns?

Where did they rate Earnie Shavers (a man you say isnt an elite heavyweight hitter)

Im pretty sure the fact they consider these two similar shows that its not the most reliable source ever.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 16 Jun 2005, 14:30

I never said earne shavers wasnt an ELITE HITTER. I just said he is not top 5, he is top 10. I dont think he knocked out enough great fighters or put enough great fighters out for the count and thats why i dont put him in the top 5.

STOPP AVOIDING MY LAST POST. I TOLD U EZZARD CHARLES BY TODAYS RULES WOULD HAVE LOST THE FIGHT. I ALSO DONT SEE WHY U THINK DEMPSEYS A POWERFUL HITTER AND GREAT FIGHTER AND NOT ROCKY MARCIANO????????

IM JUST PUZZLED SOME OFF UR POSTS ARE OFF REGARDING MARCIANO. U SEEM TO HATE HIM RATHER THAN THINK HE IS A AVAERAGE POWER PUNCHER ,. BECAUSE U HAVE NOT TRIED TO GIVE ANY LOGICAL REASONS.

IM WAITING???

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 16 Jun 2005, 15:21

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:I never said earne shavers wasnt an ELITE HITTER. I just said he is not top 5, he is top 10. I dont think he knocked out enough great fighters or put enough great fighters out for the count and thats why i dont put him in the top 5.

Fair enough, but surely you see that the Ring ratings for punchers, does have some rather, somewhat odd placings

STOPP AVOIDING MY LAST POST. I TOLD U EZZARD CHARLES BY TODAYS RULES WOULD HAVE LOST THE FIGHT.

What post am i supposed to be looking at? have i even mentioned Ezzard Charles anywhere?

I ALSO DONT SEE WHY U THINK DEMPSEYS A POWERFUL HITTER AND GREAT FIGHTER.

You have to read more carefully.

I said i have nothing against Jack Dempsy

I havent called him a great fighter, nor a powerful hitter. You shouldnt put words in my mouth

IM JUST PUZZLED SOME OFF UR POSTS ARE OFF REGARDING MARCIANO. U SEEM TO HATE HIM RATHER THAN THINK HE IS A AVAERAGE POWER PUNCHER ,. BECAUSE U HAVE NOT TRIED TO GIVE ANY LOGICAL REASONS.

IM WAITING???

Pound for pound, i feel Marciano was a solid hitter, who could Ko'ed any of the guys he fought around at the time.

But his best Ko's came against Old Lightweights, or a completly shot ex-champion.

Holmes stopping Ali, doesnt make him a top hitter.

Marciano chief weapon i believe was his toughness, but again this was only seen against men from lower weight divisions.

I fail to see how he would be competitve with a proven monster hitter like Lewis, Foreman or Tyson.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 16 Jun 2005, 18:29

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:I disagree with him going 3-3. He had a very good chance going undefeated.

Only in your dreams, pal...only in your dreams...and I didn't say he would go 3-3...I said he would have a very rough time going 3-3...Holmes & Ali (even the older Ali after the layoff) would give him holy hell, Frazier was every damn bit as tough as Marciano, and Foreman could have actually hurt him bad...I'd cringe at the thought of a 5'11 185 pounder getting into a slugging match with Big George in 1973...Marciano would be at a distinct disadvantage...and George hit harder, too...You think Marciano would get back up 6 times like Frazier did? Maybe...maybe not...(and he certainly would have got hit). He never faced a Foreman, a young and fast Ali, a Larry Holmes...and that's the biggest reason he went undefeated...the level of competition...

You ask if I saw Marciano-Walcott I? Yeah...dozens of times...Walcott was ahead on points, began slowing down the last 3-4 rounds...and was continuing to slow when he got hit...the way you might expect a 39 year old to slow down...If it was a 12 round fight, Walcott wins...ponder that a while...beat by a 39 year old through 12...The only way Marciano beats Ali, Holmes, Frazier & Foreman is to fight them at age 38 or 39 (and Foreman might have had enough left to win anyway...)

jab · Post by **jab** » 16 Jun 2005, 21:12

In my opinion Marciano would have koed Foreman, Frazier and Ali at their best. Frazier acknowledged than himself, Ali was bested by an old Marciano and Foreman was no different than some of the guys Marciano clobbered to pieces.
I would give Foreman the best chance against Rocky, but he would fall short in the mid rounds and be blasted out inside 8. They were good fighters, but they were pampered and hyped in the TV era. They werent as tough as the old timers.
The last really tough heavyweight was Liston. But the mob used him for betting upsets; didnt let him win agaisnt the brash new guys because the public never liked Sony.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 16 Jun 2005, 21:38

jab wrote:In my opinion Marciano would have koed Foreman, Frazier and Ali at their best. Frazier acknowledged than himself, Ali was bested by an old Marciano and Foreman was no different than some of the guys Marciano clobbered to pieces.

Are you insane? Name one guy...JUST ONE...that Marciano fought who was anything resembling George Foreman...I also don't recall Ali being bested by an old Marciano, is that from a dream or something?...There's no way in hell Marciano could get to a young Ali to hit him without getting his eyes swelled shut by jabs and combinations he wouldn't even see coming...Hey, are you sure your not confusing Marciano with Joe Louis or something?

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 16 Jun 2005, 22:17

[quote="samuel"][/quote]Ali only survived Cooper because the punch landed at the end of the round and Ali was given more than a minute to recover, courtesy of Dundee's shenanigans. If the rules were followed, Cooper would certainly have ko'd him.

As long as we're playing the "if" game...If Ali wasn't completely jerking around, winking to ringside friends & clowning around like a young, overconfident fool...delaying the attack on Cooper's already cut eye until the 5th round to fulfill his 'prediction'...the fight would have been over before that famous left hook...as long as we're playing the "if" game...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 16 Jun 2005, 22:18

How come all the other fights like frazier, louis, and even ali rate marciano really high????? louis knows especially cause he faced the rock. even though louis was old he could tell marciano is one of the true greats of all time.

and NO WALCOTT DID NOT GET TIRED. MARCIANO SIMPLY PUT ON MORE PRESSURE AS THE FIGHT WENT ON. AS U REMEMBER MARCIANO GOT SOMETHING IN HIS EYES AND COULDNT SEE IN THE MIDDLE ROUNDS and thats where walcott piled up the points. now marciano clearled his eyes and hes also more effective in the later rounds and thats where marciano started coming on strong. walcott fought WHAT MAY HAVE BEEN HIS BEST NIGHT AND CERTIANLY ONE OF HIS BETTER ONES. HE WAS REALLY DETERMINED AND GOT HIMSELF INTO PRIME SHAPE AND LOOKED GREAT. HE HIT MARCIANO IN THE 1ST WITH THE SAME LEFT HE KNOCKED CHARLES OUT COLD WITH AND MARCIANO GOT UP NOT HURT.

AND I DONT NEED TO PONDER ANYTHING. IT WAS A 15 ROUND FIGHT NOT A 12 ROUND FIGHT. BACK THEN THATS HOW IT WAS. THEY ARNT SLACKERS LIKE THEY ARE NOW A DAYS THEY FOUGHT 15 ROUNDS. IF ALI FOUGHT 12 ROUNDS VS NORTON HE WOULD HAVE LOST.

and marciano defientely would have beaten an old ali. marciano against foreman. u got to remember rock fought DIFFERENTLY THAN FRAZIER. frazier bobbed and weaved. marciano fought in a crouch and he was hard to hit with clean punches. foreman was also susceptible to a right hand and marciano had a deadly and yes FAST OINE that he could throw overhand and he could throw a short hard one which WOULD HAVE GOTTEN TO FOREMAN. MARCIANO LIKE LOUIS COULD THROW HARD INSIDE CRISP PUNCHES. THATS THE ONE THAT KNOCKED WALCOTT OUT. AND IF HE GOT INSIDE FOREMANS LONG LOOPING PUNCHES, HE WOULD HAVE GOT TO FOREMAN.

ROCKY ALSO REFUSED TO ACCEPT DEFEAT, HE HAD THE HEART OF A LION. HE BEAT TOUGH GAME AND STILL DANGEROUS FIGHTERS LIKE ARCHIE MOORE, EZZARD CHARLES, WALCOTT AND BEAT PRIME LEGIT CONTENDERS LIKE LASTARZA AND LAYNE. HE ALSO BEAT BIGGER FIGHTERS EARLIER IN HIS CAREER LIKE PAT CONNELY THOUGH THEY WERE ALL JOURNEYMAN.

Frazier got to ali why couldnt marciano???? marciano got really low and would have been ackward for ali to hit him with that jab hard. and marciano would wear down ali to the body and marciano did have a decent left hook and he could have hurt ali with it. marciano also had incredible stamina and would have been really tough in the championships rounds putting pressure on ali. im not saying marciano would win, im saying he would give ali a TOUGH FIGHT.
and archie moore by the way weighed in just ass much as marciano in their fight so their was so size advantage.

No rocky marciano never fought a George foreman. george foreman did fight a spent frazier( who was never the same after ali I, lost his firepower) but frazier was different and didnt have two fisted power as the rock. so george foreman also never fought rocky marciano who had his own unique style. and THE ROCK WOULD HAVE KAYOD A 38 YEAR OLD FOREMAN. FOREMAN ALSO DIDNT HAVE GOOD STAMINA LIKE ROCKY DID AND I THINK ROCKY IS STRONG AND TOUGH ENOUGH TO SURVIVE AN EARLY ONSLAUGHT. FOREMAN DOES NOT ALSO HAVE AS GOOD AS CHIN AS SEEN AGAINST ALI AND JIMMY YOUNG and ron lyle . look what rony lyle did to foreman.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 16 Jun 2005, 22:23

just a reminder if bernard hopkins loses to jermain taylor are u gonna say "hes too old hes 40 way past his prime"??? NO U CANT. BECAUSE BERNARD HOPKINS IS ONE OF THOSE RARE FIGHTERS THAT FOUGHT BETTER WHEN HE WAS OLDER. HIS BEST FIGHT WAS AT 37 OR 38 AGAINST TRINIDAD.

NOW JERSEY JOE WALCOTT IS ALSO ONE OF THOSE RARE EXCEPTIONS WHO LIKE HOPKINS FOUGHT HIS BEST FIGHTS WHEN HE WAS 33-38 YEARS OLD. SO WHEN HE LOSSED THOSE YEARS ITS NOT BECAUSE HES OLD, ITS BECAUSE THE OTHER MAN WAS BETTER. THOSE YEARS WERE HIS PRIME YEARS.
WALCOTTS PRIME MAY HAVE BEEN SOONER HAD HE GONE WITH JACK BLACKBURN TO SPAR WITH LOUIS AND OTHER GREATS when he was around 21 BUT WALCOTT CAME DOWN WITH THE TYPHOID I BELIEVE AND NEVER MADE THE TRIP.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 16 Jun 2005, 22:59

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:How come all the other fights like frazier, louis, and even ali rate marciano really high????? louis knows especially cause he faced the rock. even though louis was old he could tell marciano is one of the true greats of all time.

and NO WALCOTT DID NOT GET TIRED. MARCIANO SIMPLY PUT ON MORE PRESSURE AS THE FIGHT WENT ON. AS U REMEMBER MARCIANO GOT SOMETHING IN HIS EYES AND COULDNT SEE IN THE MIDDLE ROUNDS and thats where walcott piled up the points. now marciano clearled his eyes and hes also more effective in the later rounds and thats where marciano started coming on strong. walcott fought WHAT MAY HAVE BEEN HIS BEST NIGHT AND CERTIANLY ONE OF HIS BETTER ONES. HE WAS REALLY DETERMINED AND GOT HIMSELF INTO PRIME SHAPE AND LOOKED GREAT. HE HIT MARCIANO IN THE 1ST WITH THE SAME LEFT HE KNOCKED CHARLES OUT COLD WITH AND MARCIANO GOT UP NOT HURT.

AND I DONT NEED TO PONDER ANYTHING. IT WAS A 15 ROUND FIGHT NOT A 12 ROUND FIGHT. BACK THEN THATS HOW IT WAS. THEY ARNT SLACKERS LIKE THEY ARE NOW A DAYS THEY FOUGHT 15 ROUNDS. IF ALI FOUGHT 12 ROUNDS VS NORTON HE WOULD HAVE LOST.

and marciano defientely would have beaten an old ali. marciano against foreman. u got to remember rock fought DIFFERENTLY THAN FRAZIER. frazier bobbed and weaved. marciano fought in a crouch and he was hard to hit with clean punches. foreman was also susceptible to a right hand and marciano had a deadly and yes FAST OINE that he could throw overhand and he could throw a short hard one which WOULD HAVE GOTTEN TO FOREMAN. MARCIANO LIKE LOUIS COULD THROW HARD INSIDE CRISP PUNCHES. THATS THE ONE THAT KNOCKED WALCOTT OUT. AND IF HE GOT INSIDE FOREMANS LONG LOOPING PUNCHES, HE WOULD HAVE GOT TO FOREMAN.

ROCKY ALSO REFUSED TO ACCEPT DEFEAT, HE HAD THE HEART OF A LION. HE BEAT TOUGH GAME AND STILL DANGEROUS FIGHTERS LIKE ARCHIE MOORE, EZZARD CHARLES, WALCOTT AND BEAT PRIME LEGIT CONTENDERS LIKE LASTARZA AND LAYNE. HE ALSO BEAT BIGGER FIGHTERS EARLIER IN HIS CAREER LIKE PAT CONNELY THOUGH THEY WERE ALL JOURNEYMAN.

Frazier got to ali why couldnt marciano???? marciano got really low and would have been ackward for ali to hit him with that jab hard. and marciano would wear down ali to the body and marciano did have a decent left hook and he could have hurt ali with it. marciano also had incredible stamina and would have been really tough in the championships rounds putting pressure on ali. im not saying marciano would win, im saying he would give ali a TOUGH FIGHT.
and archie moore by the way weighed in just ass much as marciano in their fight so their was so size advantage.

No rocky marciano never fought a George foreman. george foreman did fight a spent frazier( who was never the same after ali I, lost his firepower) but frazier was different and didnt have two fisted power as the rock. so george foreman also never fought rocky marciano who had his own unique style. and THE ROCK WOULD HAVE KAYOD A 38 YEAR OLD FOREMAN. FOREMAN ALSO DIDNT HAVE GOOD STAMINA LIKE ROCKY DID AND I THINK ROCKY IS STRONG AND TOUGH ENOUGH TO SURVIVE AN EARLY ONSLAUGHT. FOREMAN DOES NOT ALSO HAVE AS GOOD AS CHIN AS SEEN AGAINST ALI AND JIMMY YOUNG and ron lyle . look what rony lyle did to foreman.

1.) YES WALCOTT DID GET TIRED...because he was also old (39)...like Archie Moore was (42)...and Ezzard Charles (33 or 34)...

2.) Foreman actually did have good stamina and finishing power when the guy came at him...it's the boxers who gave him stamina problems...guys who were cute and could extend him into the later rounds...and that's the big reason why Ali & Young were able to drop him...(and maybe you should ponder what Foreman did to Ron Lyle, not vice versa)...

3.) Frazier got to Ali because of Ali's diminished skills after a 3 1/2 year layoff...the fight was close...eliminate the 3 1/2 year layoff and Ali wins a few more rounds and the fight...

4.) Joe Frazier and Rocky Marciano are in the same league...if they fought 10 times it would be 5-5...two freight trains colliding and anybody can win in that situation...one would have never dominated the other over several fights...

5.) The fact that Frazier was "spent" after Ali I is a testimony to Ali's ability even after a 3 1/2 year layoff eroded his speed and reflexes...A young Ali chops up Marciano in a one sided mismatch...TKO on cuts (Marciano cut easily)

6.) Today's fighters aren't "slackers" just because the governing bodies changed championship fights to 12 rounds...it was done to save the lives and long term health of the fighters (not such a bad thing, unless you like to see people maimed or killed).

7.) It would be a major, big time upset if ANY of the guys Marciano beat in his big fights could beat a Foreman, a Frazier, a Holmes, an Ali...unless it was after they were as old as Marciano's opponents...a 42 year old Archie Moore for God's sake?...a 39 year old Walcott?...he beat up old guys, man...

8.) Marciano was HUMAN...not an ancient Greek god or something...and he was small...and those lunging attacks would have come up short against anyone with size and talent (Holmes/Ali/Foreman). He was tough...but so was Tex Cobb and George Chuvalo...tough alone isn't enough to over power true talent...

9.) Any more references to Marciano's win over Joe Louis and I'm going to vomit...ten years earlier Louis would have completely destroyed him and you're in a VERY tiny minority (mostly Marciano family members) if you think otherwise...

10.) Marciano did NOT have a "fast" right hand...he telegraphed almost every punch he ever threw...first the lunge, then the punch...I'd have loved to see him against a good young talented boxer like Holmes/Ali...he never fought anyone really good who was still at their peak (fortunately for him and his legend).

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 16 Jun 2005, 23:11

FIRST OF, I NEVER SAID HE COULD BEAT JOE LOUIS. JOE LOUIS IS THE GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT OF ALL TIME. JOE HIMSELF THINKS THE ROCK WOULD BEAT ALI BY THE WAY.

TELL ME THIS IF FELIX TRINIDAD BEAT BERNARD HOPKINS WOULD U SAY HOKPINS LOST BECAUSE HE WAS A 38 YEAR OLD MAN ?? ANSWER NOOO BECAUSE HOPKINS WAS IN HIS PRIME THEN.

SAME WITH WALCOTT WHO WAS 38 AND WAS STILL IN HIS PRIME. HE GOT HIMSELF PUMPED FOR IT AND DID INCREDIBLY WELL. U CANT USE HIS AGE FOR A REASON HE LOST. THAT IS IF U WATCHED THE FIGHT.

MARCIANO FACED A MASTER BOXER JUST AS GOOD AS HOLMES IN EZZARD CHARLES. EZZARD CHARLES WAS 32 BY THE WAY AND MARCIANO WAS 30 ONLY 2 YEARS DIFFERENCE. AND CHARLES LOOKE GREAT THAT NIGHT AND FOUGHT ONE OF HIS BEST FIGHTS AT HEAVYWEIGHT. YET MARCIANO WAS ABLE TO WIN A UNANIMOUS DECISION OVER A MASTER BOXER WHO IS TOUGH TO OUTPOINT OVER 15 ROUNDS. BUT MARCIANO IS ALSO BBECAUSE HE IS SO AGRESSIVE AND NEVER STOPS THROWING PUNCHES OR GIVES U ROOM TO BREATH.

MARCIANO was different from frazier because marciano COULD HIT WITH BOT HHANDS. he had power in both fists. unlike fraizer. marciano also fought out of a crouch and LIKE LOUIS HE ALSO COULD THROW HARD SHORT CRISP PUNCHES INSIDE OF THE LONG LOOPING PUNCHES.

and dont give me that about foreman having good stamina. he had none!!! especially in his prime. he could never go 15 rounds with marciano.

IF A YOUNG ALI DOESNT CHOP UP FRAZIER, WHY DOES HE CHOP OF ALI??? SEE UR NOT THAT SMART MAN . IM GIVING REAL reasons why marciano would have given ali trouble and ur giving me no reason at all . all u say is ali would have chopped a small marciano up. why dont u compare both styles and become a little more unbiased toward ali and a little more respect for the rock and i gaurantee ull see the rock has a style for ali and especially holmes.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 16 Jun 2005, 23:15

Rocky didnt have a fats right hand???? tell that to rex layne. did u see that right hand ???? u probably didnt it was so fast, he also hit la starza with some pretty hard rights. ROCK HAD A WIKED OVERHAND RIGHT AND ALSO THREW HARD SHORT INSIDE PUNCHES LIKE LOUIS. ROCKY ALSO WAS ONE OF THE BEST FINISHERS EVER, WHEN HE GOT HIS OPPONENT HURT, HE STOPRMED AFTER THEM THROWING 1000 PUNCHES THEM FEELING EVERY ONE.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 16 Jun 2005, 23:15

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote: No rocky marciano never fought a George foreman. george foreman did fight a spent frazier( who was never the same after ali I, lost his firepower) but frazier was different and didnt have two fisted power as the rock. so george foreman also never fought rocky marciano who had his own unique style. and THE ROCK WOULD HAVE KAYOD A 38 YEAR OLD FOREMAN. FOREMAN ALSO DIDNT HAVE GOOD STAMINA LIKE ROCKY DID AND I THINK ROCKY IS STRONG AND TOUGH ENOUGH TO SURVIVE AN EARLY ONSLAUGHT. FOREMAN DOES NOT ALSO HAVE AS GOOD AS CHIN AS SEEN AGAINST ALI AND JIMMY YOUNG and ron lyle . look what rony lyle did to foreman.

Hold on, George Foreman had a great chin, nobody ever beat him with just one punch, Ali hit him a LOT of times for him to go down.

Foreman survives lot's of punches man.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 16 Jun 2005, 23:29

sweet scientist. I AM SORRY THAT ROCKY MARCIANO ISNT A FINISE BOXER STYLIST WHO HITS IN FLUID MOTIONS AND JABS WITH PRECISION. I KNOW U LIKE THAT TYPE OF FIGHTER. IM ALSO SORRY HE IS SMALL for a heavyweight. I GUESS HIS TREE TRUNK LEGS AND STEEL FOREARMS ARNT SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT. u are the type of guy that likes a clean master boxer. not a srappy hard noses blue collar guy who has just as much talent as the master boxers in his own way. but marciano got the job done, and he is still the only undefeated heavyweight champ of all time.

sry rocky marciano isnt any of these. he is the one and only rocky marciano. he had his own style. go out and knockout the other guy, no matter who he was or how good he was. and he did it with sledgehammer blows and hard punches to the body, head, arms and anywhere. because marciano would rather die than lose. isnt toughness and heart a big part of boxing too???

fraizer and ali were also guys who would rather die than lose.

Gem Rose Hyman · Post by **Gem Rose Hyman** » 17 Jun 2005, 01:17

ALI v TYSON
Prime Ali 29-0(23)
Prime Tyson 37-0(33)
1:Ali jabs & Tyson punches. Tyson stuns Ali with body shots. 10-9 Tyson
2:Ali dances & establishes jab frustrating Tyson. 10-9 Ali
3:Ali dances & takes control of Tyson with the jab. 10-9 Ali
4:Ali dances & hits Tyson with 1-2 combos. 10-9 Ali
5:Ali dances & Tyson uppercuts hurting Ali, but Ali holds on. 10-9 Tyson
6:Ali ropa dope & Tyson lands brutal blows to the body. 10-9 Tyson
7:Ali lands & holds, raging Tyson penalized for low blows. 10-8 Ali
8:Ali back dancing & jabbing, Tyson is tiring. 10-9 Ali
9:Ali 1,2,3 combo & down goes Tyson 4,5,6,7,8,9,10. It's over. Ali KO 9
AND STILL...