LISTON VS WEPNER -- FIXED FIGHT?

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 24 Mar 2011, 01:51

Trying to piece together some facts on Liston's last days in Vegas. Does anyone have any facts uncovered on the story that Liston was expected to go down against Wepner and didn't?
This has been discussed in various articles, but never seemed to have been investigated further.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 24 Mar 2011, 02:05

Trying to piece together some facts on Liston's last days in Vegas. Does anyone have any facts uncovered on the story that Liston was expected to go down against Wepner and didn't?
This has been discussed in various articles, but never seemed to have been investigated further.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 26 Mar 2011, 05:51

I cannot see the logic in giving Wepner, a tough guy, a 'fixed' win. Wepner was hardly a threat to Frazier in 1970.

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 26 Mar 2011, 05:58

That wasn't how it was alluded to. It was the idea that Liston was favored to beat Wepner...pretty handily. But, clearly Liston was way past his better days anyway.
But paying Liston to go down against Wepner -- it's going to pay out.

If Liston accepted that deal, per Johnny Tocco, but instead couldn't bring himself to do it -- there's going to be a problem. A consequence.

This is one theory of Liston's death. I'm not saying this is the case --- but I am trying to find more info on it besides Johnny Tocco's word.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 26 Mar 2011, 15:59

Did you read the links to the articles that I had posted earlier in this forum?
Esquire magazine 1974/REQUIEM FOR A HEAVYWEIGHT
and the book
WHITE LINES/LISTON AND THE COCAINE CONNECTION?

IMOP most likely Liston was knocked off for trying to muscle in on the territory of
a West Las Vegas Heroin/Cocaine dealer king pin.
As far as lIston being knocked off for refusing to lay down to Wepner,
or taking the money and double-crossing them.
Why dontyou ask some of Wepner's other opponents from around that time
that are still around if they have any knowlede if their managers were approached and asked to throw a fight.
George Foreman,Ernie Terrell,Joe Bugner?
(especially Ernie Terrell as he was allegedly associated with several shady characters
who were also associated with Sonny Liston in the early 1960's,).

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 26 Mar 2011, 16:12

I did read your other post, yes. in fact, I picked up the book afterward --- so thank you.

I hear you on Wepner. But Liston was way past it by then, while Foreman wasn't even champ yet. Sometimes "name" fighters went down early to come up big on the odds. That's not an unusal story. And Johnny Tocco's theory -- who trained Liston for the fight.

By no means am I substantiating this... I'm just looking into any and all theories.

Regarding your earlier post, I'm learning that the druglord or loanshark that may have been involved with Liston was Frank "Pee Wee" Matthews. Do you know anything about this guy -- where and when he may have met Liston?

Thanks again for your help.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 26 Mar 2011, 16:23

According to the NARC who wrote the book WHITE LINES
they had stopped and questioned Frank Matthews at the Las Vegas airport who was under survellience and in town
before they questioned Liston at his home that week.
The last boxer I can asociate with Liston before his death was the Venuzulean Heavyweight
Jose Luis Garcia who was a sparring partner for Liston when he was preparing to fight Chuck Wepner
and also when Liston came back to Las Vegas to prepare to fight Jerry Quarry,a fight that never materialized of course.
Most likely Liston and Garcia sparred at Tocco's gym.
I dont know were Jose Luis Garcia is(his last pro fight was in 1975) or if he is still around but he may know something or over heard something.

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 26 Mar 2011, 16:27

Interesting..... And has there been any stories of Frank Matthews and Liston together?

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 26 Mar 2011, 23:17

One cant just suspect the black underworld in West Las Vegas though.
The Mafia was also reportly involved in narcotics trafficking in Las Vegas around that time too,particularly heroin.
In the late 1960's Mafia boss Joe Bonanno(Joe Bananas),along with his acting boss Natalie(Joe Diamond)Evola.
Both in their 60's relocated from New York to Arizona,living in Tuscon but operating out of Phoenix Arizona.
Cheese factory,Laundry business and real estate.
That's what I heard.
I believe there was some sort of scandal in the early 1970's of drugs being distributed out of the Desert Inn on the strip too,
but I'm not sure who was involved in that.
Liston was obviously(allegedly) selling drugs on the strip it sounds like.

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 27 Mar 2011, 03:41

Seems like it -- but who was he selling for? Is White Lines the only source on this part of Liston's life?

If Frank Matthews was, in fact, questioned, there had to be a reason, right? Some kind of lead...

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 27 Mar 2011, 16:39

Its curious as to why Frank Matthews was never a subject on the series AMERICAN GANGSTER even thou it ran for three seasons.
However a documentary was made about him several years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da-jkbaDJV8

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 27 Mar 2011, 17:40

Personally,I have little doubt,that Liston and Matthews knew each other(Matthews was a boxing fan and spent a lot of time in Las Vegas).
Here is a link to an in-depth article about the life and crimes of Frank Matthews.

http://www.crimemagazine.com/black-caesar-0

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 26 Apr 2011, 12:08

Hi, again....

Hoping you can help me with a little info on Liston again.
I'm trying to understand the nature of Sonny's stock when he was overtaken by Carbo and company.

I know that Frankie Carbo took 52%...Blinky Palermo and Johnny Vitale each took 12% and Pep Barone (manager of record) took 24%

Do you know what each of these men's responsibilities were for their percentage?

Thanks for any time and help...

keithmoonhangover · Post by **keithmoonhangover** » 29 Apr 2011, 05:54

Anyone who says something like, 'I can't understand the reason for Liston throwing the fight.' Needs to focus on one word.... MONEY.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 29 Apr 2011, 14:55

If the mob did rub Liston out it would have been because he owed some debts.
His purse money for the Wepner fight was only 13 thousand dollars.
Which he brought back to Las Vegas in a brown paper bag.
of the 13 k he had to pay off a 10 thousand dollar bet he had placed (and lost)
on the Quarry vs Mac Foster fight about 2 weeks earlier.

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 29 Apr 2011, 19:00

That's not the story.... his purse would have nothing to do with it. The rumor was, per Johnny Tocco, that Liston had possibly agreed to dump the fight to Wepner... and mid-fight, changed his mind.

And he was whacked for it.

That's the rumor.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 29 Apr 2011, 19:04

No.

The real question is:
Why do we keep brining this issue up?

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 29 Apr 2011, 20:18

The earliest rumors shortly after his death was that he was trying to muscle in on the territory of a major drug dealer in Las Vegas.

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 29 Apr 2011, 20:40

What about the rumor that Ash Resnick(who may or may not have had ties to organized crime) had him whacked because they
had a falling out,and Liston threatened to
"Spill the Beans'?

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 29 Apr 2011, 20:44

No offense to Chuck Wepner,but who Liston really wanted to fight in 1970,(other then Joe Frazier for the title)
was Jerry Quarry.
He had started training for the Quarry fight as soon as he got back to Las Vegas from the Wepner fight.

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 30 Apr 2011, 16:01

That drug dealer you're talking about is named Frank "Pee Wee" Mathers... I've been looking into that as well.
Interesting stuff...

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 30 Apr 2011, 17:34

I have one of my own personnel theories as to why Liston may have been bumped off.
If(allegedly)Ash Resnick was involved.It may have been to protect Joe Louis.
Who Liston was a friend of.
Joe Louis had only relocated to Las Vegas in 1970,after spending 6 months in a mental hospital in Colorado.
Joe Louis had also been a cocaine addict since the early 1960's.
Perhaps Liston was the one who was supplying Joe Louis with the cocaine for his own personal use?
and Ash Resnick who was also a good friend of Joe Louis ,didn't want an American hero to be further tarnished.
It has been said that Louis never really did get off drugs until his stroke in 1977.

molecule76 · Post by **molecule76** » 01 May 2011, 04:53

Thing about that theory though... is that Liston gave a LOT of money to Louis for bills and gambling, etc... Louis was Liston's idol.
So that's kind of a tough one to justify. But anything in this is worth looking into...

Brutu · Post by **Brutu** » 20 Jan 2012, 21:01

Brutu wrote:Personally,I have little doubt,that Liston and Matthews knew each other(Matthews was a boxing fan and spent a lot of time in Las Vegas).
Here is a link to an in-depth article about the life and crimes of Frank Matthews.

http://www.crimemagazine.com/black-caesar-0

Bump-if Frank Matthews did not have Liston bumped off,
Im sure he probably knows who did.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 20 Jan 2012, 22:04

Fascinating reading, gents. Thanks.