Prime Larry Holmes vs. Prime Muhammad Ali

[Grimm]

Who would win this interesting matchup?

I think they are very alike, Ali having more speed and Holmes being stronger.

Who wins it in 15?

[Tantum]

I don't think Ali was any faster, anybody can pitty pat and be fast while doing it. His power punches were no faster than Holmes'.

[jab]

Tough one. Ali had a 2 inch reach advantage was faster on his foot and had faster hands.

But Holmes had heavier hands and his jab, while slower had more snap in it. 60s Ali would have seen Ali koed late (12-13). 70s Ali had more power and better ring smarts and generalship: a very close decision for Ali.

[KO Artist]

Holmes by 15 round decision.

Holmes was probably Ali's best opponent.

[mrbassie]

I don't think Ali was any faster, anybody can pitty pat and be fast while doing it. His power punches were no faster than Holmes'.

Nah Ali could hit hard FAST, remember he said prime for prime, this isn't the 70's Ali. He did have faster hands than Holmes and MUCH fast feet.
I would pick Ali by decision, gliding around the ring to win possibly the most boring matchup ever.

[Ezzard]

I consider this is a chess match BUT I also think that the styles favour Holmes. Ali didn't like an opoonent who could jab. I'd pick Ali to beat more great HWs than Holmes but I think Larry could win this one. Holmes' left hook was not his best weapon and Ali didn't like left hooks. It could go either way but I just lean towards Holmes.

[dempseyfire]

Holmes by decision

[Tantum]

Nah Ali could hit hard FAST

Yeah, and Holmes punches like Kevin McBride.........

[kingpawn]

Ali and Holmes had some common opponents -- Norton, Shavers, Evangelista, Leon Spinks -- although Norton is the only one that caught Ali while he was still anywhere near his better days. So it's hard to judge Ali-Holmes on that.

I hear a young Larry Holmes used to best Ali all the time in sparring sessions. I think Holmes was also the more rugged of the two with an even stiffer jab. Yet, for one fight, with both given plenty of time to prepare, I think prime Ali scores a somewhat dull, tactical UD over the more flat-footed Holmes.

[KOJOE90]

I hear a young Larry Holmes used to best Ali all the time in sparring sessions. .

I heard that to, but I have heard many sparring partners got the better of Ali in the gym. Ali seemed to save his best for the fight itself.

[The_Power]

Holmes by a wide UD, provided we had judges who scored correctly.

[Grimm]

I hear a young Larry Holmes used to best Ali all the time in sparring sessions. .

I heard that to, but I have heard many sparring partners got the better of Ali in the gym. Ali seemed to save his best for the fight itself.

Yeah I've seen a tape of him sparring a small white guy and getting his ass kicked, I think it's just how he liked to spar.

[Cojimar 1945]

Holmes actually appears to have a reach advantage of 1 inch at 81 vs Ali's 80. I am not sure why boxrec's stats are wrong regarding the matter.

[tiredoldngrey]

Holmes wins this fight by suprisingly easy UD maybe even late TKO, and there is one very simple reason for this, going back to the ABC's of beginniing boxing. The first thing you are taught is that, when you jab, you keep you right hand in position to catch or parry his jab. Holmes did this, Ali never did. He got away with this due to his footspeed and reflexes with most opponent, but Norton gave him trouble because of this flaw. Holmes was far superior to Norton and his jab was not the flicking, quasi-illegal backhand of Ali. Instead his jab had shoulder in it and he had a harder straighter right than Ali. Neither punched to the body, threw a left hook worth speaking about, and the superior uppercut of Holmes probably would not be a factor. Jabbing when Ali jabbed Larry wouldcatch Ali's punch in his glove and batter Ali with his; before long the right would become a regular part of the squence. Easy win for Holmes Ali takes a battering

[Grimm]

Holmes wins this fight by suprisingly easy UD maybe even late TKO, and there is one very simple reason for this, going back to the ABC's of beginniing boxing. The first thing you are taught is that, when you jab, you keep you right hand in position to catch or parry his jab. Holmes did this, Ali never did. He got away with this due to his footspeed and reflexes with most opponent, but Norton gave him trouble because of this flaw. Holmes was far superior to Norton and his jab was not the flicking, quasi-illegal backhand of Ali. Instead his jab had shoulder in it and he had a harder straighter right than Ali. Neither punched to the body, threw a left hook worth speaking about, and the superior uppercut of Holmes probably would not be a factor. Jabbing when Ali jabbed Larry wouldcatch Ali's punch in his glove and batter Ali with his; before long the right would become a regular part of the squence. Easy win for Holmes Ali takes a battering

I favor Holmes but I can't see Ali goin' out like that, he was too smart he would've changed it up a bit instead of getting jabbed to death.

[dempseyfire]

After watching some early Clay fights last night on ESPN classic I still favor Holmes but a prime Ali could very well win this. Ali's greatest strength in his prime was more his footspeed and quick combination punching less his jab. Holmes could indeed outjab him but this would be more then a jabbing war as Ali would be feinting Larry (and his reflexes were faster) and coming in quick with the combos to the head and upperbody. One of Ali's strengths from watching those films is that he was very awkward and unothordox. And that he DIDN"T do things that his opponents would assume he would do. I actually think if Ali had been classically trained in terms of a boxing pedigree he wouldn't have been as successful in his prime (but he would have been more successful in the mid-late 70s)
Ali's left hook is also under-rated and could be a factor. But I still see the more consistent Holmes pulling out a close decision.

[KOJOE90]

This is of course a tough one to call.

However I disagree with those saying an easy win for Holmes. Nobody beats a fighter like Ali easy. Whoever you see as the winner this in my opinion is a close call and a distance fight as well, due to both fighters lacking huge KO power but having granite chins and great skills.

The one factor that leans me to an Ali points win is thinking about how much trouble a near novice Tim Witherspoon gave a peak Holmes. That was a very close fight and Ali was a better and faster fighter than Witherspoon.

Good arguments can be made for either fighter but I see Alis greater speed and underated strength up close in the clinches allowing him to pinch a razor tight and at times untidy 15 rounds points win.

[kingpawn]

After watching some early Clay fights last night on ESPN classic I still favor Holmes but a prime Ali could very well win this. Ali's greatest strength in his prime was more his footspeed and quick combination punching less his jab. Holmes could indeed outjab him but this would be more then a jabbing war as Ali would be feinting Larry (and his reflexes were faster) and coming in quick with the combos to the head and upperbody. One of Ali's strengths from watching those films is that he was very awkward and unothordox. And that he DIDN"T do things that his opponents would assume he would do. I actually think if Ali had been classically trained in terms of a boxing pedigree he wouldn't have been as successful in his prime (but he would have been more successful in the mid-late 70s)
Ali's left hook is also under-rated and could be a factor. But I still see the more consistent Holmes pulling out a close decision.

I agree completely that Ali didn't do things that his opponents assumed. In those old Clay fights, it always amazes me how he made good fighters look like they were just following him around the ring. Fast hands, fast feet and always changing directions and angles.

The thing that makes me think Holmes could win this fight (although I still favor Ali) is that he had the one thing guys like Frazier, and to a lesser degree, Foreman and Norton all lacked -- a good, stiff left jab. Holmes, in his prime, was a classic boxer-puncher who lacked any real weakness that Ali could easily exploit. I've read other posts suggesting Holmes was susceptible to the right hand, but those were in context to Larry being in the ring with big punchers, which Ali was not.

Still, Ali had a certain command in the ring that went beyond his physical abilities. If there was a way to win, I think Ali would find it in what a lot of bloodthirsty fight fans might consider a rather dull UD-type victory.

[jab]

Holmes actually appears to have a reach advantage of 1 inch at 81 vs Ali's 80. I am not sure why boxrec's stats are wrong regarding the matter.

There are all sorts of measurements. Its funny but for just about every fighter you have 2-3 inches in reach and in height difference (lowest to highest). This is very bad.

They should have mandatory official measurements, just like they have for weight. At least then we could have some consistency and reliability for these figures.

[Jukejar]

I'm glad to see the underappreciated Holmes get his due in these discussions, but for my money, the Ali of '66-'67 who fought Zora Folley, Ernie Terrell, Mildenberger, etc., would outpoint the peak Larry Holmes. Holmes might have had a very slight physical edge but it wouldn't have helped against Ali, and Ali would have had the advantage in speed all around (hard to believe this one is questioned). Both were skillful and clever, but Ali was more inventive--which is an important quality in this type of chess match. I think Holmes would make a competant fight but would be befuddled enough to allow Ali to win a competitive but comfortable decision.

[Cojimar 1945]

There are some reach and height measurements that seem to be accurate. The following measurements seem reliable.
Ali-80, Norton-80, Frazier-73 1/2, Foreman 78 1/2 and Holmes 81.

There seems to be far less confusion regarding height. However, people seem to disagree over how tall Tyson is (5ft 8 3/4-5ft 11 1/2).

[The_Power]

The one factor that leans me to an Ali points win is thinking about how much trouble a near novice Tim Witherspoon gave a peak Holmes. That was a very close fight and Ali was a better and faster fighter than Witherspoon.

Witherspoon fought out of a exceptionally tight cross-armed defence, with a powerful right hand.

Ali couldnt fight anything like tim witherspoon.

However Holmes could fight like Young (who beat ali) and like Norton (who beat ali 3 times)

If you work on the opponent theory, its clear that Ali would have more problems wiht Holmes Style, rather than vice versa.

[jab]

There are some reach and height measurements that seem to be accurate. The following measurements seem reliable.
Ali-80, Norton-80, Frazier-73 1/2, Foreman 78 1/2 and Holmes 81.

There seems to be far less confusion regarding height. However, people seem to disagree over how tall Tyson is (5ft 8 3/4-5ft 11 1/2).

Reliable or not, many ``reliable`` sources give them very differently. You are right though than height is given with less fluctuations than reach. Thats why I suggested that the best way to end this uncertainty is by official measurements before each fight, just like they do it for the weight.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000180 gives Ali with 83 (though I have seen ``official figures`` of 82 as well.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000180 gives Frazier as 73.5 but I have seen figures of 77 and 78 as well
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000090 gives Foreman as 82, but I have seen in his first career figures of 84 and in his second of 78 (this is funny, its not like his arms would have shrunk 6 inches??)
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000150 Holmes i sgiven with 81 and this is consistent across the board. I didnt see any different number for Holmes.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000150 Norton with 80, but figures with 78 and 79 were common.

At one point Tyson with his usual quoted number of 71 was given with 78 (in the Golota fight only)
Tua with his 69 is given with 70 and 70.5 sometimes. ITs madness with so much uncertainty.

I think they just ask the fighters and they cook up numbers than no one checks on. OTherwise how could so many diffeent numbers be peddled for the same fighter?

In the case of foreign fighter, it may be just a case of wrong transformation of centimeters to inches (like Vitali is given as 198cm and they say he is 80inch, but 198cm=78 inch, or his brother Wlad is given as 200cm and they say that is 81inch, but 200cm=78.75inches, which you may round to 79, but not to 81)
But in the case of American fighters that excuse does not exist, since they only work in inches, so no error of transformation can occur.



It is just sloppy work.
Unless they mandate official measurements for all fights, we will never know for sure. IT will only be one source against other source and lots of mud slinging, but no real way to say which is the correct number. Only opinions and hear say.

[Totybear]

Looking at the defensive style of holmes when pressured i.e the arms outstretched at 30 degree to horizontal to catch overhand shots. I would expect a prime Ali's much faster combinations to whip up the middle. As great as Holmes was I think you are making a mistake in expecting Ali to just be content with being outjabbed by another big fighter. Holmes style (orthodox stand up boxer) never gave Ali trouble. It was always the shorter bobbing swarming stylists.

I remember reading of Holmes that he was told that when he could catch Ali's right cross in sparring and hit him with a jab from the same hand that he was ready for anything. He was apparently really pleased when he could achieve this but then we are talking of an Ali ten years (at least) past his best by this time.

[mrbassie]

Nah Ali could hit hard FAST

Yeah, and Holmes punches like Kevin McBride.........

Ok you roll your eyes and I'll role my testicles for you.
You said anyone can be fast if they pitty pat, which is something Ali simply didn't do prior to his rope a dope days. He may not have been a one punch ko type but he threw snappy punches faster than any heavyweight I've ever seen.