Often a question I have thought about, why do you see many journeyman come from a few gym's but reletivaley few in another.
We all know about Nobby Nobbs, Dai Gardiner also seems to have a fair few journeymen (in Dai's case though most our out to win).
We get to see a limited number in the Brendan Ingle chin (Thorpe etc - was Mark Ramsey?) but compared to the number of fighters he has the number is low.
Billy Graham another one, at the top of my head I cannot think of an active Billy Graham journeyman.
Why do you think this is? Do you think that it just that these trainers such as Graham and Ingle are significantly better and that fighters who would have been journeymen in another gym, have turned into a solid domestic opperator. Or do you think it is simply time demands, these trainers do not have the time to train a fighter who hasn't got the tools to go that far.
I've also noticed that fighters in the more well known successful gyms often retire early into a career if they start to lose on a more regular (Johnny Nelson a notable exception), I'm talking Pele Reid, Ensley Bingham, Steve Foster Snr, Herol Graham etc - why do you think that is.
Any views.
Journeymen
Fighters can be categorised in to two types. Those that have ambition and want to far and those that are in it for the payday. These fighters maybe very limited skillwise or have gone in to the pro game too late to make a name for themselves. Very often you will hear of a fighter with a journeyman mentality. This is true for someone like Howard Clarke, who once had a decent record of wins and fought Fernando Vargas for the world title. He won 26 of his first 35 or so fights. His record now stands at won 27 lost 62. Therefore, he has won won and lost 52 since then! He is no more than a stepping stone for young prospects and a last minute opponent called in to save a show. I think at this stage of his career, he is doing it for money and possibly the love of the game.
The reason why top trainers don't train journeymen is because a lot of them have contracts with major promoters. I think Billt Graham has a deal with allegedly to only train Warren fighters. Also, if a gym is full of stars and good prospects, trainers won't have the time and effort to look after fighters that are substandard. Some gyms, like the one belonging to the Ingles has a mix of fighters. The Ingle camp is a big stable and there are fighters of varying skill levels.
On the whole, journeymen are normally fighters who were once good but after having lost a couple, decide to stay in the game for monetary reasons. That is probably why when an outstanding prospect loses a couple, he will normally retire because he doesnt want to go down this route and be remembered as a journeyman.
The reason why top trainers don't train journeymen is because a lot of them have contracts with major promoters. I think Billt Graham has a deal with allegedly to only train Warren fighters. Also, if a gym is full of stars and good prospects, trainers won't have the time and effort to look after fighters that are substandard. Some gyms, like the one belonging to the Ingles has a mix of fighters. The Ingle camp is a big stable and there are fighters of varying skill levels.
On the whole, journeymen are normally fighters who were once good but after having lost a couple, decide to stay in the game for monetary reasons. That is probably why when an outstanding prospect loses a couple, he will normally retire because he doesnt want to go down this route and be remembered as a journeyman.
Thanks for that Fish, so when it comes to someone who only looks like he amount to being a journeyman do you think Billy Graham advises him to go elsewhere, or do you think it is the lack of time given to the journeyman (to focus on their star names) that makes the journeyman think he'll have better preperation elsewhere.Fish wrote:Fighters can be categorised in to two types. Those that have ambition and want to far and those that are in it for the payday. These fighters maybe very limited skillwise or have gone in to the pro game too late to make a name for themselves. Very often you will hear of a fighter with a journeyman mentality. This is true for someone like Howard Clarke, who once had a decent record of wins and fought Fernando Vargas for the world title. He won 26 of his first 35 or so fights. His record now stands at won 27 lost 62. Therefore, he has won won and lost 52 since then! He is no more than a stepping stone for young prospects and a last minute opponent called in to save a show. I think at this stage of his career, he is doing it for money and possibly the love of the game.
The reason why top trainers don't train journeymen is because a lot of them have contracts with major promoters. I think Billt Graham has a deal with allegedly allegedly to only train Warren fighters. Also, if a gym is full of stars and good prospects, trainers won't have the time and effort to look after fighters that are substandard. Some gyms, like the one belonging to the Ingles has a mix of fighters. The Ingle camp is a big stable and there are fighters of varying skill levels.
On the whole, journeymen are normally fighters who were once good but after having lost a couple, decide to stay in the game for monetary reasons. That is probably why when an outstanding prospect loses a couple, he will normally retire because he doesnt want to go down this route and be remembered as a journeyman.
I would assume the fighters manager would tell him to go elsewhere. On the whole, a fighter probably knows whether he's gonna make it in the game or not. If he's only had a handful of amateur fights and not really achieved anything in the amateurs he'd probably go to a local pro gym where the standard of fighters varies. For example, if I lived in the Birmingham area and wanted to fight for the paydays only and had no ambitions to win a title, I'd probably go to Nobbby Nobbs gym, where I know I would get regular fights and would'nt be expected to win many. Most of these fights would be at short notice, sometimes only a couple of hours. Even if I thought I won the fight and the public thought it, the decision would most likely go against me because more often than not, I would be in with a local prospect who the crowd have come to see.
If, however, I was an ok amateur that had lots of experience and was in my early - mid 20's and had ambitions to do quite well, I may go to Pat Cowdells gym. He has a couple of journeymen and also a couple of decent pro's. I'd be fighting locally, sometimes on Pat Cowdells own shows that he puts on now and again.
If I was an outstanding amateur with England honours and an ABA title to my name, I'd probably be signed up by a top manager/promoter like allegedly anyway. Matthew Macklin is one such example. He turned pro with Warren and then was advised to move to Manchester, where he could be trained by Billy Graham at the Phoenix camp. The main reason being that Birminghams boxing scene is'nt quite that good at the moment and there are'nt any amazing fighters there. Hope it answers you're question. Are you thinking of taking up a pro career?
If, however, I was an ok amateur that had lots of experience and was in my early - mid 20's and had ambitions to do quite well, I may go to Pat Cowdells gym. He has a couple of journeymen and also a couple of decent pro's. I'd be fighting locally, sometimes on Pat Cowdells own shows that he puts on now and again.
If I was an outstanding amateur with England honours and an ABA title to my name, I'd probably be signed up by a top manager/promoter like allegedly anyway. Matthew Macklin is one such example. He turned pro with Warren and then was advised to move to Manchester, where he could be trained by Billy Graham at the Phoenix camp. The main reason being that Birminghams boxing scene is'nt quite that good at the moment and there are'nt any amazing fighters there. Hope it answers you're question. Are you thinking of taking up a pro career?