Prime Larry Holmes vs. Prime Muhammad Ali

[Grimm]

There are some reach and height measurements that seem to be accurate. The following measurements seem reliable.
Ali-80, Norton-80, Frazier-73 1/2, Foreman 78 1/2 and Holmes 81.

There seems to be far less confusion regarding height. However, people seem to disagree over how tall Tyson is (5ft 8 3/4-5ft 11 1/2).

Reliable or not, many ``reliable`` sources give them very differently. You are right though than height is given with less fluctuations than reach. Thats why I suggested that the best way to end this uncertainty is by official measurements before each fight, just like they do it for the weight.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000180 gives Ali with 83 (though I have seen ``official figures`` of 82 as well.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000180 gives Frazier as 73.5 but I have seen figures of 77 and 78 as well
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000090 gives Foreman as 82, but I have seen in his first career figures of 84 and in his second of 78 (this is funny, its not like his arms would have shrunk 6 inches??)
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000150 Holmes i sgiven with 81 and this is consistent across the board. I didnt see any different number for Holmes.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000150 Norton with 80, but figures with 78 and 79 were common.

At one point Tyson with his usual quoted number of 71 was given with 78 (in the Golota fight only)
Tua with his 69 is given with 70 and 70.5 sometimes. ITs madness with so much uncertainty.

I think they just ask the fighters and they cook up numbers than no one checks on. OTherwise how could so many diffeent numbers be peddled for the same fighter?

In the case of foreign fighter, it may be just a case of wrong transformation of centimeters to inches (like Vitali is given as 198cm and they say he is 80inch, but 198cm=78 inch, or his brother Wlad is given as 200cm and they say that is 81inch, but 200cm=78.75inches, which you may round to 79, but not to 81)
But in the case of American fighters that excuse does not exist, since they only work in inches, so no error of transformation can occur.



It is just sloppy work.
Unless they mandate official measurements for all fights, we will never know for sure. IT will only be one source against other source and lots of mud slinging, but no real way to say which is the correct number. Only opinions and hear say.

People are forgetting that reach is more than just your arms, when you measure from finger tip to finger tip reach can easily change because the size of your chest may change.

EX: Foreman while he was young was thin and in shape, so his chest was alot smaller than it was when he made his old fat comeback.

This is why his reach measurements may have been longer when he was older.

Or just look at Rahman if he didn't have such a big chest then his reach would be shorter.

But alot of times people do just mess up the measurements.

[Grimm]

Nah Ali could hit hard FAST

Yeah, and Holmes punches like Kevin McBride.........

Ok you roll your eyes and I'll role my testicles for you.
You said anyone can be fast if they pitty pat, which is something Ali simply didn't do prior to his rope a dope days. He may not have been a one punch ko type but he threw snappy punches faster than any heavyweight I've ever seen.

I don't think he was denying that Ali could hit hard fast, but I think he was saying that Holmes could also.

[tiredoldngrey]

As to Holmes defensive style of extending his arms, wasn't that of Ali very similar? I can recall several of his opponents saying that he was like fighting an octopus and that he would start grabbing at quita a distance. The problem with this fight becoming much more than a jab and move, occasional right hand type of fight is the fighters. That is what they did and if it wasn't working they did it until it did.I can't recall much, if any, in the way of body punches from either man, I've heard rumors of an Ali left hook against Bonavena (the "hooks" I've seen from him didn't merit the name) but Larry may not have thrown a hook in his career, and Holmes did end up with a good right uppercut while Ali's most memorable effort at that punch enabled Frazier to floor him. Neither man fought at all inside unless forced to so I cannot envision either man seerking a fight along those lines. No, it would be jab, move and so on and so on. Remember this is prime time version of these men; Ali's speed advantage would not be as wide, not nearly, as it seems some are thinking it might be, and Holmes had a better jab. Look, each man, esp. ali, seemed very fastof foot against the guys they fought. Each had a tremendous hand speed edge as well, when their rival got close and they could rapid fire 'punches' at him. At a distance, where this fight would be fought, those advantages are nearly nullified which is why you never see stick and move guys fighting one another.This fight would feature two matadors and no bulls, no chances to hold behind the neck or to "flurry" and move away. So it would be jabs and straight rights and Holmes wins easy

[jab]

Grimm,

I know that reayh is finger tip tp finger tip, like a wingspan if you will. But Foreman was given as 84 when young and 78 the second time around, so it is the other way around than we logically might expect.

I think it has more to di with sloppy work and carelessness, lack of official measurements than real changes in chest size or whatever else.

Since you do not get measured by anyone, you can just say any number you want. Within limits of course: it would be hard for Tua to make anyone believe that he is 85 inch when he is so small and stumpy armed.

It is just unprofessional that the fighters are not measured officially, at least thos fighting in million dollar matches. I hear those measuring tapes arent that expensive, but I could be wrong.

[zslayton]

It is always tough to say this guy would beat that guy if they never got to fight to begin with. My question is this. Ali is considered by a majority of writers and fans as the number 1 or 2 heavyweight of all time (joe louis being the other). So why are so many of your picking Larry Holmes to beat him if they fought in their primes?

Anyway, my take is this. Ali, in his prime would beat Larry in his prime by UD. Larry did have a better jab, no doubt about it. He had one of the best ever, but Ali was too smart in the ring, even for a guy as top notch as Larry Holmes (who, by the way, I ranked 5th or 6th all time in the Heavyweight division). He was too fast with both his hands and feet. I am not taking anything away from Larry. He was great, but you take him at his peak and you put him in the ring with the Ali before Ali had inactivity forced on him for refusing to serve in the military, and Ali would box circles around a slow footed Larry Holmes. Sure the Holmes jab would give him trouble, but Ali would find a way to win.

[Tantum]

I don't think he was denying that Ali could hit hard fast, but I think he was saying that Holmes could also.

I was saying that the speed of their power punches were about the same. But Ali tended to throw alot of weaker, fast flurries for the crowd, and what not... So some people tend to over rate his speed a little due to that.

[Jukejar]

Holmes had good speed, but I never thought of him as being phenomenally fast, and I don't recall the boxing critics of the day describing him as such, either. The 1960s version of Ali, on the other hand . . .

And Holmes did have a great jab, and he knew how to use it to full advantage. But was it a better jab than Liston? Liston had underrated handspeed--his jab was quick AND powerful, the kind of jab that knock guys down. But young Ali seemed to cope with that jab pretty well.

I'm still glad to see Holmes getting his due, and there is certainly a good argument to pick him over Ali--but I think Ali would have dealt with Holmes strengthes and used his own inventiveness and superior ability to adapt to win a close but clear decision.

The qualities that lead me to pick Ali over Holmes are the same qualities that would place him slightly higher on my all-time heavyweight rankings, with a big emphasis on slightly.

[shanbopop]

I would say Larry would win 7 out of 10 times..He would be the guy who had Alis number prime or not.

[Hesketh Vampire]

I would say Larry would win 7 out of 10 times..He would be the guy who had Alis number prime or not.

I think Ken Norton already proved he was that guy.

[Totybear]

[quote="tiredoldngrey"]As to Holmes defensive style of extending his arms, wasn't that of Ali very similar? I can recall several of his opponents saying that he was like fighting an octopus and that he would start grabbing at quita a distance.




No, I think you will find that holmes tucked down his chin, slid out his arms and cut the odds on getting hit. Ali never took his eyes off the opponent, watched the punches coming and parried them or got out the way.

I really cannot understand the comments on this thread! Norton had Ali's number, Holmes would maybe beat Ali 1 out of 10. All the negative stuff written here about Ali does not apply to a PRIME Ali. He didn't grab until after his legs had slowed down. A prime Ali had faster feet, faster hands, could shift his body weight and position much, much faster than Holmes. I think Holmes could have made it competetive but realistically a very comfortable win for Ali.

[Cojimar 1945]

Foreman's reach appears to have been actually measured at 78 1/2 inches and the Ali-Foreman fight certainly gave the impression that Foreman did not have a greater reach than Ali (shoulder width+arm length). This is also supported by a statement by Ali I saw in a film in which he mentioned that he had an inch and a half reach advantage over Foreman.

With regards to great heavyweights of the past, sources seem to agree on reach measurements.
James J. Jeffries 76 1/2
Jack Johnson 74
Jack Dempsey 77
Gene Tunney 77
Joe Louis 76
Rocky Marciano 68

[Sweet Scientist]

I think some people picking Holmes here have forgotten just how fast a young Ali was...Ali would slip, slide & dance his way to a huge early lead...Holmes would have to pursue & cut the ring off, getting clinched when successful...Ali, when he could still float around the ring, always jumped out to an early lead...Ali won the 1st 6 rounds in the 2nd Norton fight by dancing and jabbing (until he tired out and Norton came on strong) and that was 5 years past his peak...in his prime, he wouldn't tire as early, he didn't have to 'force' himself to dance in his prime...Holmes would have to win a huge majority of the last 5 rounds to have a chance...and he'd have to out flurry Ali the last 30 seconds of those final rounds....something I just don't see happening...still, Holmes was great and stood a chance of an upset...but Ali would definitely win 2 out of 3, if not all 3 (in his prime, before 1970)...Ali was not in his prime after the 3 1/2 year layoff---actually, he never got to fight in what would have been his 'theoretical' prime- mid '67 to 1970...and after the comeback, his basic style (originally based on self preservation and avoiding punches) now changed into doing whatever it took to win...sometimes boring, sometimes ugly, occassionally (Foreman/Frazier II & III) brilliant...but never with the foot/hand speed of the '60's...which is what originally set him apart from the rest...

[ringsider]

You must all be smoking crack, to think Larry Holmes would beat Ali.......not a chance. Only an old and tired Ali that was a shell of the fighter he once was got beat by Holmes. Prime to prime, Ali gives him a terrible boxing lesson, Larry Holmes threw a right hand like a girl....

[Totybear]

You must all be smoking crack, to think Larry Holmes would beat Ali.......not a chance. Only an old and tired Ali that was a shell of the fighter he once was got beat by Holmes. Prime to prime, Ali gives him a terrible boxing lesson, Larry Holmes threw a right hand like a girl....

You see you almost had them with your convincing argument until the last line

[ringsider]

Not quite, If you watch the "Easton Assassin" you will see his head precedes his right hand, when he threw it.......almost as though he was throwing a baseball..... If could not see that you might want to become a golf or tennis fan. I liked Larry Holmes, but he lacked a good right hand.

[Totybear]

Not quite, If you watch the "Easton Assassin" you will see his head precedes his right hand, when he threw it.......almost as though he was throwing a baseball..... If could not see that you might want to become a golf or tennis fan. I liked Larry Holmes, but he lacked a good right hand.

Lol. Nice one ringsider hope you save up and buy a vcr that works then you can stop looking at the old mags

[Tantum]

Yep, Larry's right hand sure did suck....

[ringsider]

Isn't that Marvin Frazier? So what..........Tyson did the same thing to him. Larry Holmes had a poor right hand.

[Grimm]

Ringinsider.

Please just stop posting.

[ringsider]

Why Grimm? Because you feel stupid, because you know squat?

[Grimm]

Why Grimm? Because you feel stupid, because you know squat?

You are an idiot if you think that Larry Holmes didn't have a good right hand.

[ringsider]

I don't think Larry Holmes had a poor right hand, I know it....I watched his fights. I was a Larry Holmes fan. But a video clip of Larry KOing Marvis Frazier with a nicely delivered right, doesn't mean Larry's right was all that great. Marvis had no chin, and got the fight because of who his father was. Larry made short work of him. You are the idiot Grimm., and too stupid to know it.....

[KOJOE90]

I hear a young Larry Holmes used to best Ali all the time in sparring sessions. .

I heard that to, but I have heard many sparring partners got the better of Ali in the gym. Ali seemed to save his best for the fight itself.

Yeah I've seen a tape of him sparring a small white guy and getting his ass kicked, I think it's just how he liked to spar.

Ali claimed that in sparring he liked to condition his mind and body to accept pain.

[Totybear]

Ringsider would you be so kind as to educate evryone as to which of Larry Holmes moves (except for 30% of his jabs) weren't preceded by his head movement. Hell he even nodded when he walked.


I liked your points, I agreed with your outcome, but to suggest he hit like a girl!!!!!!!!!!

By the way I hope you are enjoying wimbledon and that your favourite battist there wins

[ringsider]

I liked your points, I agreed with your outcome, but to suggest he hit like a girl!!!!!!!!!

Totybear I did not say Larry hit like a girl. I said he threw a right hand like a girl. There is a difference.