ALI VS. TYSON

[silkov]

Also I think you are very unfair to Holifield regarding his fights with Tyson. The Tyson who fought Holifield was better than the Tyson who fought Douglas. To say that Holifield wouldnt have lived with the younger Tyson is to ignore Evanders great chin and heart... facets which would always have allowed him to beat Tyson imo... also you should remember that the Holifield who beat Tyson was a faded force compared to the fighter he had been in the late 80s and early 90s.
There is this Myth about Tyson being 'invincible' in his 80s prime... this is bull! (imo) he had a run of good wins over faded and limited fighters but in crucial fights (vs Tucker... Bonecrusher) he showed that he could be frusrated and come unravelled. This is what happened against Douglas!.
Tyson was never invinclible... he had a great talent but crucial flaws which were there for all to see even at his 'peak' and it is these flaws which caused his downfall and which stopped him reaching greatness.
Tyson must go down as a fighter who had a great talent but was too mentally flawed to fully realise it... basically a bully, a front runner and vulnerble to anyone who he could not intimidate or knockout, or who could outthink him in the ring, Mike Tysons 'greatness' is a myth.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Silkov, i am sorry if i made it look like i was belittling holyfield. by no way am i. I think he is a tru warrior with a lot more heart and courage than tyson.
however, i am also one of those firm believers that tyson was never the same after the spinks fight.
NOW, before in my other post i said tyson would beat holyfield 6 years earlier. i would just like to say i meant to say tyson would have beaten him in 1988. or a prime mike vs a prime holyfield , tyson would win because although holyfield had the heart, tyson was so lethal and dangerous i think he would have ogtten t holyfield. tyson also showed heart back in 1985-88 and showed he could go the distance and outpoint top contenders.

Now, tyson in 1991 was still shot from the douglas defeat and all the bad things happening to him in his life. would hoylfield have won in 1991??? thats a very good posibilty. tyson dominated ruddock, but shjowed he wasnt invisible anymorew and ruddock hit him hard a few times. holyfield was in his prime then and had a much better chance of beating tyson then than 1988. holyfield did show if ur not intimidated, u can beat mike tyson. could holyfield have done it like he did in 1996?? possibly. if he shoewed he could take tysons punches early.

[silkov]

Silkov, i am sorry if i made it look like i was belittling holyfield. by no way am i. I think he is a tru warrior with a lot more heart and courage than tyson.
however, i am also one of those firm believers that tyson was never the same after the spinks fight.
NOW, before in my other post i said tyson would beat holyfield 6 years earlier. i would just like to say i meant to say tyson would have beaten him in 1988. or a prime mike vs a prime holyfield , tyson would win because although holyfield had the heart, tyson was so lethal and dangerous i think he would have ogtten t holyfield. tyson also showed heart back in 1985-88 and showed he could go the distance and outpoint top contenders.

Now, tyson in 1991 was still shot from the douglas defeat and all the bad things happening to him in his life. would hoylfield have won in 1991??? thats a very good posibilty. tyson dominated ruddock, but shjowed he wasnt invisible anymorew and ruddock hit him hard a few times. holyfield was in his prime then and had a much better chance of beating tyson then than 1988. holyfield did show if ur not intimidated, u can beat mike tyson. could holyfield have done it like he did in 1996?? possibly. if he shoewed he could take tysons punches early.

I really disagree that Tyson was 'shot' after the Douglas fight... the Douglas fight showed flaws that were always there in Tyson. People are saying now 'Ah he's been shot since the Douglas fight' yet for the past 15 years theyve been saying he was still the baddest thing out there.
Truth is Tyson was still good after Douglas, certainly the power was there and the Tyson who fought Holifield was in top shape... better shape than he was in against Douglas. As for Holifield he took on Tyson after being stopped by Moorer and Bowe.... people feared for his health before the bout and he was certainly a slowed down version of himself against Tyson.
Holifield was probably at his peak in the late 80s and early 90s... he was faster and his stamina was better... I think a Tyson vs Holifield in say '88 would really be much the same fight with the same result but that bit faster and more ferociaous... Tyson would start better but Holifield would take his best and he would grind Tyson down and stop him in about 9 or 10 rounds.
Holifield actually reminds me in many ways of Marciano in the way he used his heart so much... also a little rough... but better technical fighter and longer career. All in all there are no heavyweight champs who had more heart than Evander... I put him on a par with Ali, Jeffries, Marciano and Frazier in that respect and in many ways heart is the key to beating Tyson.

[kworkman]

I am sure i will soon be considered Mr. unpopular after this post. I have seen the "who would have won" posts concerning Ali and Tyson. In my opinion,and I am sure it is the unpopular one.Without a doubt Ali could outbox Tyson,But Tyson would have knocked Ali out.Ali was a great fighter and a great boxer with flare and personality and he was a great champion.Tyson on the other hand was maybe he still is a BRAWLER.I truly believe if he could have kept it together,he was invincible and unbeatable.I think he could have shattered Marciano's record.By the way I am a BIG Marciano fan.Could have,Would have,Who knows? It is fun to speculate.I love the sport.I used to go to the Olympic Auditorium in L.A. CA. Mike Quarry was a friend of the family,MY IDOL!!! fond memories!!
I am and always will be a TYSON fan.

[Ezzard]

Tyson was never invinclible... he had a great talent but crucial flaws which were there for all to see even at his 'peak' and it is these flaws which caused his downfall and which stopped him reaching greatness.
Tyson must go down as a fighter who had a great talent but was too mentally flawed to fully realise it... basically a bully, a front runner and vulnerble to anyone who he could not intimidate or knockout, or who could outthink him in the ring, Mike Tysons 'greatness' is a myth.

Nice to hear someone expressing this. Tyson was physically there but mentally weak. He was in shape for both Holyfield fights and was ebaten by a man with no fear, more desire and better skills. Tyson fans think he should eb rated as the greatest ever for going through a weak division. Don't get me wrong Tyson was great for boxing at that time (subsequently he was not). He was also exciting and would stand a chance with anyone in hsitory because of his power and speed, BUT greats lsoe rounds and come abck to win fights. Tyson never overcame adversity in the ring.

[Syntax Error]

This is a mismatch!!!

Let's see, a fighter with little heart or stamina, up against a fighter who could dance non-stop for 15 rounds & had courage oozing from every pore.

A fighter with no plan 'B', up against a fighter who was able to adapt his style to suit his opponent & also to accommodate his own physical deterioration as he got older.

A fighter, whose most spectacular win is against an ageing pumped up light heavyweight with dodgy knees, against a fighter who beat some of the most vaunted heavyweight contenders, when he himself was long past his best.

60's Ali would have danced & stopped him on cuts in about 8 rounds & 70's Ali would have taken his best shots on the ropes, counter punched him, told him how ugly he is & TKO'd him in about 6 rounds.

[Tantum]

a fighter who could dance non-stop for 15 rounds

Larry Donald?

[kworkman]

Tyson knocks Ali out in 20 seconds.

[kworkman]

Tyson knocks Ali out in 20 seconds.

[kworkman]

[quote="kworkman"]Tyson knocks Ali out in 20 seconds or less.

[Syntax Error]

Tyson knocks Ali out in 20 seconds.

Like Ali said, he is 63 & suffering from Parkinson's, so I reckon Tyson by KO in about 20 seconds or so!!!

[Sweet Scientist]

The reason i am more knowledgeable than u sweet scientist and am winning this debate and making u look foolish is because i answer all of ur questions

You make yourself look foolish...you don't 'answer' questions, you 'spin doctor ' the truth to improve your weak position...maybe you should try to get a job in Washington, DC...with the rest of the 'spin doctors'...or maybe you already work there... ...you can't accept the fact that Marciano's basis for greatness was being undefeated against old competition...you think Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier couldn't be competitive against Marciano?...that Rocky shows up and they all cower in fear?...You don't think those guys are on Marciano's level?...If Marciano had to face everyone Ali or Foreman or Frazier faced, he absolutely, positively would not go undefeated...now spin doctor that awhile....

ALI WAS NOT AT HIS PEAK BUT STILL IN HIS PRIME.

Proof read your shit man, that doesn't make much sense...in his prime, he was at his peak....after his prime he was not at his peak...

[Sweet Scientist]

I am and always will be a TYSON fan.

That's cool...I am and always will be a Billy Conn fan...but I would never suggest that he could beat Ali just because I like him...if you know what I mean...

[KOJOE90]

Tyson knocks Ali out in 20 seconds.

[kworkman]

Tyson would knock him out in 20 seconds or less.

[mrbassie]

What makes you think that? so where all the guys who lasted longer than that against Tyson in his prime better or tougher than Ali?

[Totybear]

Ali only survived Cooper because the punch landed at the end of the round and Ali was given more than a minute to recover, courtesy of Dundee's shenanigans. If the rules were followed, Cooper would certainly have ko'd him.[/quote]

I have that fight in it's entirety (courtesy of the bbc's a fight to remember by harry carpenter) and the rest between rounds lasted 66 seconds instead of 60. Clay came out with the same gloves on.

[Sweet Scientist]

I have that fight in it's entirety (courtesy of the bbc's a fight to remember by harry carpenter) and the rest between rounds lasted 66 seconds instead of 60. Clay came out with the same gloves on.

Yeah, I always wondered about that...I never timed it but it seemed close to the normal amount of time on tape (unless they edited some out, which wouldn't make much sense)... Where do some people get that 'extra minute' stuff???

[Sweet Scientist]

What makes you think that? so where all the guys who lasted longer than that against Tyson in his prime better or tougher than Ali?

What makes him think that is: he's a Tyson Fanatic...similar to being a crack addict...(both can be irrational, close minded, arguementative & obsessed)...except that even though Tyson Fanatics never can get enough (Tyson), they never O.D....

[Totybear]

Scientist, the gloves myth was an excuse by the Cooper team. There was a slight delay which got exaggerated as time went on. Nowadays with instant replay and vcr’s it would have been corrected immediately. A bit like Jesus making a few rounds of sandwiches for some visitors becoming feeding 5’000.

What is interesting is on the recent “greatest sportsman” show on sky; Cooper repeated the myth and even suggested that a corner man had to find a steward, who had to go to the dressing room to find replacement gloves!!!!!!

I’ve always respected Cooper immensely but it’s strange to see him say this. I think he has started to believe it himself.

Has to the main topic, I was telling everyone for years that the way to beat Tyson was to jab him on the way in push his head down in close, whip in the uppercuts and drop the right over when he’s tired. Douglas did it first and it’s been followed right through to McBride. Who do we know that perfected that style I wonder?

Ali toys with Tyson and stops him in 8.

[KOJOE90]

Another factor that must be considered about a Ali - Tyson fight is the build up to the fight.

Can you imagine the mind games and fun Ali would have had with Tyson?

The fragile, emotional mind of Tyson would be easy prey for Ali.

And many fighters claim Boxing is 90% mental.

I believe this would play a major part in this fight.

[kworkman]

It is all just personal opinion on who would have,could have,etc..
I am glad everyone got fired up! And by the way Sweetscientist,don't take things so personal.Yes,I am a Tyson fan.to make the comparison between Tyson fan and crack addict,shows your true ignorance.Lighten up.

[kworkman]

Tyson knocks Ali out in 20 seconds.

Like Ali said, he is 63 & suffering from Parkinson's, so I reckon Tyson by KO in about 20 seconds or so!!!

Were you trying to be funny.I,obviously meant when they were both in their prime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Syntax Error]

Tyson knocks Ali out in 20 seconds.

Like Ali said, he is 63 & suffering from Parkinson's, so I reckon Tyson by KO in about 20 seconds or so!!!

Were you trying to be funny.I,obviously meant when they were both in their prime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was trying to be as funny as you, who suggested that Tyson would KO Ali in under 20 secs!

How anybody could come to such a conclusion, having watched Ali's career is very funny indeed.

[ABA Boxing]

Tyson by KO early rounds if he can get near Ali.

Or Ali makes it impossible for Tyson to catch him and out boxes him for the distance, on a major points win!

Tyson needs a small ring or he has no chance!