The Top Ten Bantamweights of all time

[tiredoldngrey]

I'll take a stab at a top5 in no special order; Carlos Zarate, Ruben Olivares, Eder Jofre, Manuel Ortiz and Orlando Canizalez. Jeff Chandler had arun before Richie Sandoval, from my neighborhood, beat him up; was it enough to make him top10? Alberto Davila was a top contender for years and longevity has to count for something. I suspect somebody will fill in the holes in my knowledge of European fighters.

[barry]

Top 5, not in any kind of order: Terry McGovern, Eder Jofre, Ruben Olivares, Carlos Zarate, Jimmy Barry!

[tiredoldngrey]

I've read about McGovern but don't know enough about him...I don't know Jimmy Barry. When did he fight ?

[barry]

Jimmy Barry fought from 1891 to 1899 and retired undefeated with a record of 61-0-10 (40 KO). His career went downhill after he beat Walter Croot in 1897 and Croot died as a result, so Barry lost all of the killer instinct that he used to have in abundance.

As a result of his loss of everything toward boxing Barry had around 7 consecutive draws to end his career, although those last seven were against world class opponents. McGovern was in-line for a shot against Barry and at that point McGovern would have destroyed Barry, but in his prime, Barry and McGovern would have been a hell of a bout.

Terry McGovern is one of the most underrated fighters of all-time in my opinion simply because his reign was somewhat short, but few could match the quality of his opposition that he faced during his reign.

He won the bantamweight title by knocking out Pedlar Palmer in one round and within the ten months he won the world featherweight title by knocking out George Dixon and knocked out the current lightweight world champion Frank Erne in a non-title bout.

From 1899 until November 1901 when Young Corbett beat him, McGovern struck a fear into opponents like very few ever have before, or after and he not only beat quality opposition when he was champion, he beat the very best fighters that were fighting.

Terry beat, no he destroyed every type of boxer there was. It did not matter if he was facing a stylist, a jab-specialist, a brawler, a boxer-puncher...McGovern beat all types with relative ease.

His downfall was that he began to live the night-life and was a very popular stage actor and as a result his training and conditioning fell drastically and when he faced Corbett he was ripe for a defeat. Both McGovern and Barry were two of the greatest fighters to ever step into the ring.

[BROZO]

heres my top 10, and I will go in order IMPO.

1. Ruben Olivares....Mr. KO, its scarry to think how much better he could have been if he would have mixed in some more trainning with his heavy partying.

2. Carlos Zarate........dominated all the bantams of his era, never lost at that weight (he did not loose to Pintor no mater what the judges saw) 63kos in 66 wins.

3. Eder Jofre........ one of the finest, a complete package. fought way too much in brazil.

4. Rafael Herrera ....... a very nice balance of power and skill not the best at either but mixed them both well.

5. Manuel Ortiz.......... one of the finest all around fighters

6. Joe Becerra......crafty relentless and willing to lay it all on the line .

7. Jeff Chandler............classy and possibly the best american in the smaller weights

8. Lionel Rose..........saw him twice in L.A. First time I feared for my life when he beat Castillo in a terrible decision which sparked a riot. second time he was knocked out by Olivares. one of those boring types that just will themselves to win.

9. Freddie Gilroy - a few years back I was introduced through some old tapes and I must say .....think Ricky Hatton in a bantam body. too bad coming to america was such a trek back then.

10. Alfonso Zamora- He was ruined by Zarate but prior to that he was one of the best one punch knockout artists of any era.

and i left out many. Enrique "Maravilla" Pinder- (a beautiful boxer), Toluco Lopez, Frankie Duarte, Alberto Davila (simple case of right man at the wrong time),Jose Medel, Raul "Raton" Macias, Panama Al Brown, Romeo Anaya, Little Dado, Rodolfo Martinez, Miguel Lora, Lupe Pintor, Paul Ferreri, and one of my all time favorite fighters who was the Gatti of his time, Little Poison Jesus Pimentel.

there are so many I left out that its imposible to name all in this one of the richest talent wise divisions of all time. Im sure you guys can name some more.

[BROZO]

I would also say that the reason Terry McGovern is underrated as a bantam is because some of his biggest fights (from all I have read ) all happened at fetherweight, and correct me if Im wrong but even the 3 fights with Young Corbett II were at feather as was the fight with Joe Gans. but during his time at bantam it is said that he was a devastating puncher.

[barry]

McGovern walked through bantamweights with relative ease. He fought some real tough bantamweights prior to 1900, but I his biggest fights were at featherweight. Two of his bout versus Corbett were featherweight, but the third was closer to lightweight, Corbett probably came into that bout between light and welter as he really put on the weight after beating McGovern the first time, aminly because he hated to train. It is hard to try to rate McGovern just in one class, so I rate him at both bantamweight and featherweight, but he wasn't as invincible at feather as he was at bantam!

[tiredoldngrey]

Davila and the Sandoval brothers, Richie and Alberto, were all from the same neighborhood and lived within a mile of me. I thought "Superfly" Alberto to be the better fighter if the two Sandovals, but he had to face Zarate, Zamora, Davila, Lujan and so on to reach the top. The only tape I've seen of Rose is the fight with Olivares, but afriend of mine who saw him fight live several times said he had a very useful left hand, especially to jab with. Pintor was very tough but seemed a level behind Zarate- that "decision" be damned- and I think that he and Zamora could've put on a show that would not be forgotten.

[BROZO]

Barry, I think the same thing happenes to Olivares. when I hear kids from the younger generation who question why he is said to have been so special, once I question their judgment I come to find out they only saw him at feather where he was still great but not as devastating.

Superfly was really good, I got to see him a couple of times. retired with only 1 loss.

Pintor was a classic case of a fighter that got much better once he put a belt around his waist. he had one of the better educated left hands I have ever seen and in his fight with Wilfredo Gomez he pushed Gomez like no one under feather had ever done.

[barry]

I agree about Olivares and I rate him at both weights also.

[tiredoldngrey]

Olivares, before he won the title was a different animal; he didn't train on the way to the ring then. I have tape of him in those days and he was in much better shape than was often the case later on. Olivares v. Zarate is a very interesting fight to me. Zarate despite his height did most of his damage inside, and he made several mistakes -regularly- that he got away with due to being tall. Against Arguello Olivares showed his ring smarts and science and had that fight won until... ...If he fought a similar fight against Zarate I think he'd win. And how do you think Jofre would fare against the other top bantams?

[dnahar32]

I don't have Dixon or McGovern in my Top 10, because I have them as featherweights, especially McGovern who had only a few fights under 118. More of an argument can be made for Dixon who weighed under 118 in many fights, but officially he was a featherweight then.

The Jimmy Barry pick is intriguing. No question he was great. However, when he fought for the world crown against Walter Croot, he weighed in at 106.

Here's my Top 10:

1) Eder Jofre
2) Panama Al Brown
3) Fighting Harada
4) Ruben Olivares
5) Carlos Zarate
6) Manuel Ortiz
7) Sixto Escobar
8) Jeff Chandler
9) Kid Williams
10) Pete Herman

[dnahar32]

Olivares, before he won the title was a different animal; he didn't train on the way to the ring then. I have tape of him in those days and he was in much better shape than was often the case later on. Olivares v. Zarate is a very interesting fight to me. Zarate despite his height did most of his damage inside, and he made several mistakes -regularly- that he got away with due to being tall. Against Arguello Olivares showed his ring smarts and science and had that fight won until... ...If he fought a similar fight against Zarate I think he'd win. And how do you think Jofre would fare against the other top bantams?

I think Jofre is the greatest bantamweight of all time and a Top 5-10 All-Time p4p fighter. So I do think he beats everyone at bantamweight, even Harada (prime vs. prime) who beat him twice in razor-thin decisions. I wonder if Harada would have won those fights if they weren't in Tokyo, and a lot of accounts had Jofre winning the first fight at least. But they did fight on relatively even terms. The thing that sets Jofre apart is he could handle every style and did a little of everything in his career including fighting a swarming fighter like Harada, the European fighting style of Caldwell, and he fought a lot of these fights in the contenders backyards. He came from behind to knockout fighters. He could box or punch, unlike Zarate who relied only on power or Olivares who brawled at bantam. Although in fairness to Olivares, the stiff competition and Mexican fighting spirit almost demanded brawls.

[Chuck1052]

If you want to see someone who was a terrific pure boxer,
try to get a tape of Alberto Davila in action. But.....Davila
wasn't one of the best bantamweights. I rate three
bantams of the late 1970s and the early 1980s above
Davila. They were Carlos Zarate, Jeff Chandler, and
Lupe Pintor. Davila didn't have the punching power
or the height to be the top bantam of his day!

After an impressive amateur career, Alberto
Sandoval looked to be a very promising fighter.
In addition to having good boxing skills, he was
very graceful, quick, and athletic. But Sandoval
had a big weakness....a lack of punching power.
In his big acid test against Alfonso Zamora,
Sandoval fought a very game battle, but
was finally overwhelmed by one of the hardest
punchers among bantamweights in history.

Richard Sandoval was not as graceful as his brother,
Alberto. But unlike his brother, Richard had punching
power. Moreover, Richard had an effective boxing
style in his own right. Unlike Alberto, Richard would go
on to be a champion.

Let me say that there were an impressive number of
top bantamweights who were active during the reigns
of both Ruben Olivares and Carlos Zarate.

- Chuck Johnston

[tiredoldngrey]

I used to walk my dog past Alberto Davila's house, wanting to see the 'Champ'...I'd never thought about it, but I have to agree that Richie punched harder than his brother. I have tape of both Jofre/Harada bouts and his fight with Medel...Very impressive, short hard punches but its hard for me to objectively compare fighters I've seen fight two or three times with a fighter I've seen twenty times and cheered for, pretended to be when I'd box in the mirror at 9 or 10 years.

[barry]

McGovern fought many fights at bantamweight, he started at around 110, but he did not make the move to featherweight until he beat Dixon in 1900, so he actually had more bouts at bantam than he did featherweight. I've got a huge scrapbook of McGovern of which I am only missing reports for three of his fights, so I may be overly partial and a bit bias when I rate him, but he did beat the very best fighters at bantam and featherweight in a short time and beat everyone, with the exception of his first bout with Oscar Gardner, with relative ease, but he was pretty lucky in that bout as Gardner had him on the floor and hurt very bad, but McGovern came out in the next round and took Gardner out, but that was right about the time that McGovern was getting big on the stage and soon everything about him started to wither.

Jofre is with out a doubt a p4p great and he could very well be the number one bantamweight. Like McGovern Jofre could adapt to any style, but whereas McGovern was a fighter that overwhelmed, Jofre could box the ears off of anyone if he chose to. The bantamweight and featherweights are probably my favorite divisions in history...some of the greatest fighters ever fought at those weights.

[tiredoldngrey]

So where does it stand? Zarate, McGovern, M. Ortiz, Olivares, Jofre, these five seem to be unanimous? The next five- Chandler? Pintor? Panama Al Brown (embarassed to say that I had it ixed in my head that he was a featherwt.)? Zamora? Does it seem, to any body else that after Zarate there was a step down to Chandler and Pintor, thn a drop off so steep that the guy that set the record for most defences at 118 has recieved no mention at all?

[KOJOE90]

1. Ruben Olivares....Mr. KO, its scarry to think how much better he could have been if he would have mixed in some more trainning with his heavy partying..

Mr KO

Anyone know who the fallen fighter is?

[dnahar32]

So where does it stand? Zarate, McGovern, M. Ortiz, Olivares, Jofre, these five seem to be unanimous? The next five- Chandler? Pintor? Panama Al Brown (embarassed to say that I had it ixed in my head that he was a featherwt.)? Zamora? Does it seem, to any body else that after Zarate there was a step down to Chandler and Pintor, thn a drop off so steep that the guy that set the record for most defences at 118 has recieved no mention at all?

Off the top of your head, can anyone name 5 of those record defenses by Orlando Canizales? Quality defenses? The point is, he has no business being in a Top 10 Bantamweight list regardless of the number of defenses. Same as Virgil Hill is not one of the greatest light heavyweights of all time.

I can see why you thought Panama Al Brown was a featherweight. He was a freak of nature at 5-11. A slick boxer at that height in the bantamweight division would be a tough fight for anyone at that weight. I can only imagine what Zarate would do against a fellow great fighter taller than him at 118.

[Chuck1052]

Don't forget Kid Williams, Pete Herman, or Bud Taylor. Yes,
a number of the old-timers have less than gaudy won-loss
records, but I feel that they fought alot less inferior opposition.

During Manuel Ortiz's reign, the fine Hawaiian bantamweight,
David Kui Kong Young was active. On the Hawaiian Islands
during World War II, boxers had to work in order to be
eligible to fight in local rings. It is quite possible that
Young's career suffered because of such a rule.

When Ruben Olivares fighting as a bantamweight,
the following 118-lbers. were active: Lionel Rose,
Chucho Castillo, Rafael Herrera, Jesus Pimentel,
Romero Anaya, and Enrique Pinder.

When Carlos Zarate was active as a 118-lber,
the following 118-lbers. were active: Alfonso
Zamora, Lupe Pintor, Rodolfo Martinez, Alberto
Davila, Alberto Sandoval, and Jorge Lujan.
Let me say that Rodolfo Martinez was a terrific
fighter who was unfortunate to be active during
the same time as Carlos Zarate. Martinez had
good boxing skills in addition to being a good
puncher and game.

- Chuck Johnston

[tiredoldngrey]

As much as i enjoyed Canizalez the fact is that he was the class of this (or that) era, not a classic. I never appreciated the truth of that fact until I wayched Jofrev. Harada 1; I couldn't envision Orlando in a fight with either of those two. Zarate v. Brown would be very interesting because Z's height allowed him to avoid paying for certain mistakes he made that a taller fighter would exploit. What a chin he had! I watched Zaratev. Zasmora while eating lunch; in the third and then 30secs or so before the KO, Zamora blasted him with right hand/hook combos and Zarate didn't blink

[dnahar32]

To give some perspective, here's Herbert Goldman's list from the RING (1987):

BANTAMWEIGHTS
1 Jofre
2 Zarate
3 Olivares
4 Panama Al Brown
5 Ortiz
6 Pete Herman
7 Kid Williams
8 Johnny Coulon
9 George Dixon
10 Jeff Chandler
11 Joe Lynch
12 Terry McGovern (sorry Barry, LOL)
13 Sixto Escobar
14 Bud Taylor
15 Frankie Burns
16 Fighting Harada
17 Memphis Pal Moore
18 Lou Salica
19 Joe Becerra
20 Jimmy Carruthers
21 Eddie Campi
22 Rafael Herrera
23 Bushy Graham
24 Charley Phil Rosenberg
25 Vic Toweel

[Steve M]

How good was Miguel Lora?.

[tiredoldngrey]

I saw him one night bust up Alberto Davila with the most amazing repetoire of elbow strikes ever. Don't know if he landed with the gloves at all. Only time I ever saw him fight.

[elmersalsa]

My top 10 list of the all time bantamweights:

1. Eder Jofre
2. Panama Al Brown
3. Manuel Ortiz
4. Terry McGovern
5. Carlos Zarate
6. Ruben Olivares
7. Jimmy Barry
8. Fighting Harada
9. Jeff Chandler
10. Lupe Pintor

Honorable mention: Orlando Canizalez, Rafael Herrera, Alfonso Zamora, Jorge Lujan, Jeff Fenech, Tim Austin, Raton Macias