Mosley's speech - worrying

[xb51]

Boxing should protect those who are already showing signs of neurological damage from fighting any more. It shouldn't be down to a boxer to carry on or not when they are already showing signs of damage, which Mosley seems to be.

I hate this argument because the point you make is a decent point but has no way of being implemented appropriately accross the board. How do you propose to do that? It's a subjective opinion. You say he is slurring his words, others will say he is perfectly fine. A brain scan will probably back their views.

Doesn't have to be subjective - they could do what they do in other sports where there is a neurological test conducted each year and unless you can stay within a % of your baseline you aint taking part any more.

Sports like NFL, NHL etc are slowly realising that they are responsible for their sportsmen and leaving all of their hall of famers in a terrible state is no advert for attracting new fans/participants to the sport.

I for one am not interested in seeing a great such as Mosley turn into a mess and I think he should hang them up after this fight and keep what he still has.

I agree with the people talking about sparring though - did a group of neurologists not recently conclude that the majority of cognitive damage boxers suffer is done in sparring?

Who is going to pay for the cost of having full brain scans and tests on every fighter every year?? It's not going to happen and it's not feasible. Another thing to consider is the validation of the result. Look at Edwin Valero. Not allowed to fight in the US because of a brain scan but well able to fight elsewhere.

[Shirow]

I think that in some cases a boxer tries to boil down a division (or 2), dehydrates themselves and the brain is more easily damaged. It is a shame if Mosley is showing signs of damage; these things tend to get more pronounced and he is still a young man.

I think that's the issue. The damage is dramatically increased if the boxer has drained the fluid protecting his brain by dehydrating himself. There seem to be relatively few HW boxers who turn out punch drunk compared to the lower weights and this must be the reason.

Even before Mosley turned pro he was famed for his ring wars with grizzled veterans in sparring so he has taken a lot of punishment over the years. You can only take so many punches before the leave their mark whether in sparring or fights.

Rather than regular neurological tests maybe a rule limiting dehydration would work. I've thought for a long time that limiting the fight night weight to no more than 5% over the weight limit is a good idea. It could be made a rule for title fights and even for non-title fights a % of the purse could be deducted like in over the weight fights at the moment.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Dehydration will increase the risk of brain damage, as the layer of fluid which surrounds the brain and protects it from sudden shocks is depleted, however, over the years, getting punched repeatedly in the head in sparring and in fights increases the risk of brain damage cumulatively.

I don't see how anyone could listen to Mosley's speech and not say he has some form of neurological damage.

Until I saw those clips recently - I thought he had a chance against Manny, but he looks like absolute Dogshite in his training, and appears to have lost his speed - which against Pacman, gives him nothing but a punchers chance, and only a slim one at that. He looked so good against Margarito, but something has clearly happened to him since.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I did come across this footage of Jack Dempsey at 70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WHXdzib91w

as you can see he's still sharp and has clear speech so i think some boxers are more prone to long term damage from blows to the head then others in later life.

Strange isn't it? In his 80's Jake Lamotta is still sharp as a tack, whereas Terry Norris is in a very bad way already. Given the respective punishment they took, there just doesn't sem any logic.

Who knows, maybe LaMotta has an incredibly thick jawbone which absorbed most of the force of the impact before the shock waved reached the brain.

[stujones]

There is a genetic evidence for Puglistica Dimensia and a defect or a specific gene - quite startling evidence on this, even been a school of thought suggest that people with this defect shouldn't be allowed to be licenced.

[ArtOfWar]

He sounds fine to me - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSGziIYy2bE

No one who gets punched as much as your average boxer is gona be the same at the end, but Mosley still functions at a high level in my opinion. Out of the ring that is.

[Coco]

Obv some men are going to be more resilient to brain damage etc but it is a def that most damage is done in the gym.
It is a fighters decision though, you gotta put food on the table

[jamesmcdonnell]

Obv some men are going to be more resilient to brain damage etc but it is a def that most damage is done in the gym.
It is a fighters decision though, you gotta put food on the table

Errr. No, it shouldn't be a fighter's decision. A fighter with neurological damage, that can be proven medically, should never be allowed into the ring to fight. That's why we also don't license most old men to fight - because it isn't safe.

There are other ways of putting food on the table.

[jamesmcdonnell]

There is a genetic evidence for Puglistica Dimensia and a defect or a specific gene - quite startling evidence on this, even been a school of thought suggest that people with this defect shouldn't be allowed to be licenced.

Really? When was this discovered.

I don't understand how this could be so, given that trauma is a likely component, there would not be a gene that protects against neurological damage. Pugilistica dementia is not a disease, it's a condition with various symptoms.

[whiskey]

Yes, I think at 140, he would have been pretty much unbeatable, I think he would have ruined Kostya Tszyu, - it's a great shame he never campaigned there.

He seemed to be ok at 135, he never wanted for Stamina, I think he chased Oscar up the weights unfortunately - and missed a trick.

Tszyu is the reason Oscar fooked off and Shane never even contemplated 140. He was a beast after he got brought back to earth after the loss.

Personally I would pick Tszyu on his day against any other fighter including Mayweather at 140 no doubt whatsoever.

[Coco]

Obv some men are going to be more resilient to brain damage etc but it is a def that most damage is done in the gym.
It is a fighters decision though, you gotta put food on the table

Errr. No, it shouldn't be a fighter's decision. A fighter with neurological damage, that can be proven medically, should never be allowed into the ring to fight. That's why we also don't license most old men to fight - because it isn't safe.

There are other ways of putting food on the table.

Within reason yes but most medicals are just knee jerk reactions to the tabloid press, medicals whose main purpose is to cost money and appease a few whiney liberals.
Fighting will happen either way but stringent medicals just drive things underground, which is one reason our unlicensed scene is flourishing.
Other countries have more can do attitudes to fighting

[palooka]

Yes, I think at 140, he would have been pretty much unbeatable, I think he would have ruined Kostya Tszyu, - it's a great shame he never campaigned there.

He seemed to be ok at 135, he never wanted for Stamina, I think he chased Oscar up the weights unfortunately - and missed a trick.

Tszyu is the reason Oscar fooked off and Shane never even contemplated 140. He was a beast after he got brought back to earth after the loss.

Personally I would pick Tszyu on his day against any other fighter including Mayweather at 140 no doubt whatsoever.

Tszyu was very strong and fierce; I would have thought a near prime Chavez would have got him though

[xb51]

Obv some men are going to be more resilient to brain damage etc but it is a def that most damage is done in the gym.
It is a fighters decision though, you gotta put food on the table

Errr. No, it shouldn't be a fighter's decision. A fighter with neurological damage, that can be proven medically, should never be allowed into the ring to fight. That's why we also don't license most old men to fight - because it isn't safe.

There are other ways of putting food on the table.

You haven't addressed any of the points that were brought up about the implementation and standardization of not allowing certain fighters to fight.

[stujones]

There is a genetic evidence for Puglistica Dimensia and a defect or a specific gene - quite startling evidence on this, even been a school of thought suggest that people with this defect shouldn't be allowed to be licenced.

Really? When was this discovered.

I don't understand how this could be so, given that trauma is a likely component, there would not be a gene that protects against neurological damage. Pugilistica dementia is not a disease, it's a condition with various symptoms.

http://tbi.unl.edu/savedTBI/sports/dementia.html

Sorry for the shitty link - there is LOADS of material on this.

The stats concerning boxers and American football players with APOE4 and Dimentia Pugilistica are startling. I did a lecture on it, sad topic but one of the one lectures in Neuropsychology I find most interesting to research.

There is a debate is that should we stop people with the APOE4 variant from taking up contact sports? The alternative side is should isn't the blows to the head just ACCELERATING the onset of things like AD - cause the chances are, if you have APOE4.... your going to get Alzeihmers in later years anyway.

Most boxers will end up with certain damage to the brain, I would imagine if you did an MRI of George Foreman it wouldn't be exactly the same as a non boxing 60 year old. However, he clearly doesn't have PD.

This link is a bit better.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-zyT ... &q&f=false

[mkirkhope]

I hate this argument because the point you make is a decent point but has no way of being implemented appropriately accross the board. How do you propose to do that? It's a subjective opinion. You say he is slurring his words, others will say he is perfectly fine. A brain scan will probably back their views.

Doesn't have to be subjective - they could do what they do in other sports where there is a neurological test conducted each year and unless you can stay within a % of your baseline you aint taking part any more.

Sports like NFL, NHL etc are slowly realising that they are responsible for their sportsmen and leaving all of their hall of famers in a terrible state is no advert for attracting new fans/participants to the sport.

I for one am not interested in seeing a great such as Mosley turn into a mess and I think he should hang them up after this fight and keep what he still has.

I agree with the people talking about sparring though - did a group of neurologists not recently conclude that the majority of cognitive damage boxers suffer is done in sparring?

Who is going to pay for the cost of having full brain scans and tests on every fighter every year?? It's not going to happen and it's not feasible. Another thing to consider is the validation of the result. Look at Edwin Valero. Not allowed to fight in the US because of a brain scan but well able to fight elsewhere.

Where did I mention full brain scans? There are simple computer tests which measure neurological performance which are used in many sports. I was given one myself after a concussion from football. These are relatively inexpensive tests which are also widely used in high schools throughout the USA and Australia. I'd find it astonishing if high schools can afford them for all their athletes but fights generating millions can't afford to do it. You could be given a baseline assessment when you get your pro license and then have it reviewed at minimal cost further down the line.

I think over the next 5-10 years we are going to see the real evidence about the damage caused in boxing and other impact sports coming to the fore. American football has had terrible problems recently with ex players committing suicide etc due to neurological problems from repeat hits to the head.

[jamesmcdonnell]

There is a genetic evidence for Puglistica Dimensia and a defect or a specific gene - quite startling evidence on this, even been a school of thought suggest that people with this defect shouldn't be allowed to be licenced.

Really? When was this discovered.

I don't understand how this could be so, given that trauma is a likely component, there would not be a gene that protects against neurological damage. Pugilistica dementia is not a disease, it's a condition with various symptoms.

http://tbi.unl.edu/savedTBI/sports/dementia.html

Sorry for the shitty link - there is LOADS of material on this.

The stats concerning boxers and American football players with APOE4 and Dimentia Pugilistica are startling. I did a lecture on it, sad topic but one of the one lectures in Neuropsychology I find most interesting to research.

There is a debate is that should we stop people with the APOE4 variant from taking up contact sports? The alternative side is should isn't the blows to the head just ACCELERATING the onset of things like AD - cause the chances are, if you have APOE4.... your going to get Alzeihmers in later years anyway.

Most boxers will end up with certain damage to the brain, I would imagine if you did an MRI of George Foreman it wouldn't be exactly the same as a non boxing 60 year old. However, he clearly doesn't have PD.

This link is a bit better.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-zyT ... &q&f=false

Those are very scant articles. From what they say, there is a link between brain trauma, the genetic component and Alzheimers, however Alzheimers is entirely different to Dementia Pugilistica. The symptoms and aetilogy are very different.

[IRLangmaid25]

I watched the Fight Camp 360 episodes that have been put up so far on Youtube, and to see Sugar Shane Mosley sounds alright it is just that he seems to be someone who is naturally very softly spoken and very laidback in my opinion.

[jamesmcdonnell]

You really cannot hear the slurring?!

[crusader]

The slurring was painfully obvious to me. Mosley was difficult to make out at times.

[JC]

Just when I though I couldn't admire him any more than I did I saw his new missus

[tear up]

Just when I though I couldn't admire him any more than I did I saw his new missus

best of the very best

[stujones]

Really? When was this discovered.

I don't understand how this could be so, given that trauma is a likely component, there would not be a gene that protects against neurological damage. Pugilistica dementia is not a disease, it's a condition with various symptoms.

http://tbi.unl.edu/savedTBI/sports/dementia.html

Sorry for the shitty link - there is LOADS of material on this.

The stats concerning boxers and American football players with APOE4 and Dimentia Pugilistica are startling. I did a lecture on it, sad topic but one of the one lectures in Neuropsychology I find most interesting to research.
There is a debate is that should we stop people with the APOE4 variant from taking up contact sports? The alternative side is should isn't the blows to the head just ACCELERATING the onset of things like AD - cause the chances are, if you have APOE4.... your going to get Alzeihmers in later years anyway.

Most boxers will end up with certain damage to the brain, I would imagine if you did an MRI of George Foreman it wouldn't be exactly the same as a non boxing 60 year old. However, he clearly doesn't have PD.

This link is a bit better.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-zyT ... &q&f=false

Those are very scant articles. From what they say, there is a link between brain trauma, the genetic component and Alzheimers, however Alzheimers is entirely different to Dementia Pugilistica. The symptoms and aetilogy are very different.

Are you describing a recommended year 2 University text book as scant, how very dare you

It is a pretty rubbish book, but the evidence about the APOE4 and DP is massive and startling, even if the symptoms are different. There are individual differences and variants in Alzheimers and DP (e.g. observe the behaviour and defects of say Gerry Quarry, Floyd Patterson and Emile Griffith - all diagnosed with DP all seemed to have very different symtoms and issues).

I would disagree that the symptoms and etiology is not similar to AD. Sure the symtoms are not similar in every cases, but naturally both often result in cognitive impairement, memory loss, paranoia etc. Studies have highlighted, and I think the book below puts it in simplistic terms, that the etiology of the two are similar. MRI have both have reveled something known as Neurofibrillary Tangles. The links and similarities are there, despite the apparent nature of causes of the two being very different.

Basically the link is that people with APOE4 are more inclined to have Alzheimers and Athletes involved in contact sports with APOE4 are more likely to DP. That is one possible explanation as to why some boxers with only 15 pro fights to their name can develop DP and others, such as Foreman, can have careers lasting 80 fights into his late 40's and still demonstrate little, or no, side effects. On the flip side, why are some people in their 90's driving and razor sharp and others in their 60's (or younger) who cannot remember their own name - there is a strong chance that the 90 year old driver doesn't have the APOE4 variant in his genetic component. A google scholar search of APOE4 and DP will reveal hundreds of studies exploring the link - it appears to be a solid explanation for the Individual differences in boxers and other contact sport athletes.

Thats also a major reason why doctors will treat DP with the same drugs as Alzheimer's.

[stujones]

On a side note, I think it is worrying when a president of a sanctioning body (albeit not sanctioning this fight) is saying that a fighter has no legs and is shot. I don't think Mosley and Suliman have a particularly bad relationship - Mosley has held his WBC titles with some distinction.

[veriton]

On a side note, I think it is worrying when a president of a sanctioning body (albeit not sanctioning this fight) is saying that a fighter has no legs and is shot. I don't think Mosley and Suliman have a particularly bad relationship - Mosley has held his WBC titles with some distinction.

sulaiman also said pacman v dlh was a circus act and that pacman would get killed

[palooka]

Just when I though I couldn't admire him any more than I did I saw his new missus

best of the very best

Yeah, I would not go on the pull with Shane; he can get the proper ladies