ALI VS. TYSON

[mrbassie]

Scientist, the gloves myth was an excuse by the Cooper team. There was a slight delay which got exaggerated as time went on. Nowadays with instant replay and vcr’s it would have been corrected immediately. A bit like Jesus making a few rounds of sandwiches for some visitors becoming feeding 5’000.

What is interesting is on the recent “greatest sportsman” show on sky; Cooper repeated the myth and even suggested that a corner man had to find a steward, who had to go to the dressing room to find replacement gloves!!!!!!

I’ve always respected Cooper immensely but it’s strange to see him say this. I think he has started to believe it himself.

Has to the main topic, I was telling everyone for years that the way to beat Tyson was to jab him on the way in push his head down in close, whip in the uppercuts and drop the right over when he’s tired. Douglas did it first and it’s been followed right through to McBride. Who do we know that perfected that style I wonder?

Ali toys with Tyson and stops him in 8.

What's really weird is Angelo Dundee tells the story too, in it's entirity right down to the steward going off to look for gloves (which Cooper has been saying for years, I have it on a Sky Sports documentary about Ali from about 1990ish) and further embellishes saying he ripped the glove more so the ref would have to replace it!

[KOJOE90]

Scientist, the gloves myth was an excuse by the Cooper team. There was a slight delay which got exaggerated as time went on. Nowadays with instant replay and vcr’s it would have been corrected immediately. A bit like Jesus making a few rounds of sandwiches for some visitors becoming feeding 5’000.

What is interesting is on the recent “greatest sportsman” show on sky; Cooper repeated the myth and even suggested that a corner man had to find a steward, who had to go to the dressing room to find replacement gloves!!!!!!

I’ve always respected Cooper immensely but it’s strange to see him say this. I think he has started to believe it himself.

Has to the main topic, I was telling everyone for years that the way to beat Tyson was to jab him on the way in push his head down in close, whip in the uppercuts and drop the right over when he’s tired. Douglas did it first and it’s been followed right through to McBride. Who do we know that perfected that style I wonder?

Ali toys with Tyson and stops him in 8.

What's really weird is Angelo Dundee tells the story too, in it's entirity right down to the steward going off to look for gloves (which Cooper has been saying for years, I have it on a Sky Sports documentary about Ali from about 1990ish) and further embellishes saying he ripped the glove more so the ref would have to replace it!

Maybe Dundee tells the story because it's a story people like to hear and he gets payed to appear on these documentarys to tell it.

Just a thought.

[Sweet Scientist]

Tyson by KO early rounds if he can get near Ali.

Or Ali makes it impossible for Tyson to catch him and out boxes him for the distance, on a major points win!

Tyson needs a small ring or he has no chance!

Tyson also needs Ali to have one hand tied behind his back...

[KOJOE90]

Tyson by KO early rounds if he can get near Ali.

Or Ali makes it impossible for Tyson to catch him and out boxes him for the distance, on a major points win!

Tyson needs a small ring or he has no chance!

If Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith, James Tillis and Mitch Green could survive the early Tyson onslaught and go the distance then the FAR superior Muhammed Ali sure could.

[Sweet Scientist]

Scientist, the gloves myth was an excuse by the Cooper team. There was a slight delay which got exaggerated as time went on. Nowadays with instant replay and vcr’s it would have been corrected immediately. A bit like Jesus making a few rounds of sandwiches for some visitors becoming feeding 5’000.

What is interesting is on the recent “greatest sportsman” show on sky; Cooper repeated the myth and even suggested that a corner man had to find a steward, who had to go to the dressing room to find replacement gloves!!!!!!

I’ve always respected Cooper immensely but it’s strange to see him say this. I think he has started to believe it himself.

Has to the main topic, I was telling everyone for years that the way to beat Tyson was to jab him on the way in push his head down in close, whip in the uppercuts and drop the right over when he’s tired. Douglas did it first and it’s been followed right through to McBride. Who do we know that perfected that style I wonder?

Ali toys with Tyson and stops him in 8.

What's really weird is Angelo Dundee tells the story too, in it's entirity right down to the steward going off to look for gloves (which Cooper has been saying for years, I have it on a Sky Sports documentary about Ali from about 1990ish) and further embellishes saying he ripped the glove more so the ref would have to replace it!

Maybe Dundee tells the story because it's a story people like to hear and he gets payed to appear on these documentarys to tell it.

Just a thought.

And, maybe Dundee tells this 'embellished' story because it puts HIM in a better light...the trainer who saved his young prospect from potential defeat...which wasn't neccessarily the case at all...

[Sweet Scientist]

It is all just personal opinion on who would have,could have,etc..

Tyson over Ali in 20 seconds is not a rational personal opinion...it displays a severe mental deficiency...Do you really think anyone with a brain would buy into that?

[cultus]

This would be a good fight .. sure... but to say that Tyson is like frazier is stupid. Fraizer was a hype.

Tyson had nothing wrong with his mentality when he fought at that time(he wanted to show that Cuz was the best trainer in the world) and Ali never could play much head games cose he was more like a clown. pff... I am the greatest .. .. real good... yes you are now shut up and eat your soup. Tyson was also faster.

[KOJOE90]

Joe Frazier just a hype job???

How do you come to that conclusion?

[Professor X]

[quote="Sweet Scientist"][quote="ABA Boxing"]Tyson by KO early rounds if he can get near Ali.

Or Ali makes it impossible for Tyson to catch him and out boxes him for the distance, on a major points win!

Tyson needs a small ring or he has no chance![/quote]

Tyson also needs Ali to have one hand tied behind his back... :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote]

Well, why not? 'Just to even things up a bit. Ruddock fought Tyson one-handed and did OK for himself. Nothing great, but he did OK. One-armed Ali TKO 11 Tyson.

[Syntax Error]

I know we all have opinions & they differ wildly, but how can any reasoned & rational person, come to the conclusion that Tyson would have KO'd Ali cheaply?

Ali survived as an old fighter against some of the most fearsome punchers in HW history. Foreman & Shavers for example, hit much harder than Tyson, yet he took their blows as a faded fighter!

As a young fighter, he got off the floor to win fights & was only floored 3 times in a 21 year career.

Where is the evidence to suggest that Tyson would have KO'd him cheaply, especially when you take into account that Tyson was easily taken the distance by average HW's like Smith, Green & Tucker in his pomp?

[Totybear]

And, maybe Dundee tells this 'embellished' story because it puts HIM in a better light...the trainer who saved his young prospect from potential defeat...which wasn't neccessarily the case at all...[/quote]

I think you hit that nail squarely scientist

[cultus]

Joe Frazier just a hype job???

How do you come to that conclusion?

I recently watched many of Ali's, Frazier's and Forman's fights and was more than surpised regarding the skill level at that time. Somebody made a point here in boxrec that skill's over time have got much better and I saw that clearly myselfe. I am really trying to keep an open mind but when I look at the Forman Vs Ken norton .. its kinda funny how people hype these past boxing icons up so much. Frazier to my suprise wasn't as fast or even very powerfull.

Ok .. didn't want to pick on frazier alone cose that era wasn't as special as people tend to beleve. .. and as I say'd Im trying to keep an open mind.. so educate me if you have the time or will... Tyson would have beat Ali.. he didn't have the chin to last with mike or the power to generate a KO.

[Hesketh Vampire]

I recently watched many of Ali's, Frazier's and Forman's fights and was more than surpised regarding the skill level at that time. Somebody made a point here in boxrec that skill's over time have got much better and I saw that clearly myselfe. I am really trying to keep an open mind but when I look at the Forman Vs Ken norton .. its kinda funny how people hype these past boxing icons up so much. Frazier to my suprise wasn't as fast or even very powerfull.

Some interesting views you have there. Tell me, regarding Foreman, Frazier and Norton's skill levels, who are you comparing them to that is so great - Floyd Mayweather? Because I'm thinking though the heavyweights of the 80's, 90's and now and they don't exactly leave those old-timers standing in terms of skills.

[Sweet Scientist]

I recently watched many of Ali's, Frazier's and Forman's fights and was more than surpised regarding the skill level at that time. Somebody made a point here in boxrec that skill's over time have got much better and I saw that clearly myselfe. I am really trying to keep an open mind but when I look at the Forman Vs Ken norton .. its kinda funny how people hype these past boxing icons up so much. Frazier to my suprise wasn't as fast or even very powerfull.

Ok .. didn't want to pick on frazier alone cose that era wasn't as special as people tend to beleve. .. and as I say'd Im trying to keep an open mind.. so educate me if you have the time or will... Tyson would have beat Ali.. he didn't have the chin to last with mike or the power to generate a KO.

So...'Frazier wasn't fast or powerful'...You're 'surprised' about Ali, Frazier & Foreman's lack of skill...You think Tyson would beat Ali because 'Ali didn't have the chin to last'...

Five questions for you:

1.) Did Buster Douglas have a better chin than Ali?
2.) Was he more talented than Frazier, Foreman, Ali & Norton?
3.) Was Tyson 24 years old, 37-0-0, & in his prime when he got KTFO'd by Douglas...and then NEVER again won a meaningful fight the rest of his career?
4.) Do you think you are a good judge of boxing talent?
5.) When is your next psychiatric appointment?

[cultus]

I recently watched many of Ali's, Frazier's and Forman's fights and was more than surpised regarding the skill level at that time. Somebody made a point here in boxrec that skill's over time have got much better and I saw that clearly myselfe. I am really trying to keep an open mind but when I look at the Forman Vs Ken norton .. its kinda funny how people hype these past boxing icons up so much. Frazier to my suprise wasn't as fast or even very powerfull.

Ok .. didn't want to pick on frazier alone cose that era wasn't as special as people tend to beleve. .. and as I say'd Im trying to keep an open mind.. so educate me if you have the time or will... Tyson would have beat Ali.. he didn't have the chin to last with mike or the power to generate a KO.

So...'Frazier wasn't fast or powerful'...You're 'surprised' about Ali, Frazier & Foreman's lack of skill...You think Tyson would beat Ali because 'Ali didn't have the chin to last'...

Five questions for you:

1.) Did Buster Douglas have a better chin than Ali?
2.) Was he more talented than Frazier, Foreman, Ali & Norton?
3.) Was Tyson 24 years old, 37-0-0, & in his prime when he got KTFO'd by Douglas...and then NEVER again won a meaningful fight the rest of his career?
4.) Do you think you are a good judge of boxing talent?
5.) When is your next psychiatric appointment?

your being like a baby here.

but ok il answer them:

1. Buster Douglas beat untrained mental case Mike... Buster did also the best fight in his life in that night..
2. yes he was
3. no... and Douglas fight wasn't meningful at all .. he didn't prepeare for it ... and most of his corner wasn't even there. They pulled a darn condom to medicate his face. Razor was the last meaningfull...
4. I see what I see... and I know enaugh to make up my mind.
5. you see... your so both... think outside the box... it's not unthinkable that maybe Ali wasn't the best. I think Lennox would have killed him. And Forman was always so open to everything.. specialy the overhand right... just clumsy and easy to hit.

[Hesketh Vampire]

.. so educate me if you have the time or will...

I don't think anybody has that amount of time or will

[Professor X]

Have you seen film of Frazier from the sixties, pre-Ali, cultus? He looked just as fast as Tyson, but a better boxer. Tyson was always leaving his feet, jumping around, ungrounded. It's no wonder Holyfield sent him sliding across the ring and under the ropes from a bodyshot.

His career is done, so now I can say that Tyson, the glorified brawler, didn't work his way in or out of an opponent, like you're supposed to do...that's Boxing 101...he flew in wildly. Ali would have combo'ed his ass coming and going with little trouble. And what little trouble Tyson could have generated would have bounced off of Ali's chin, arguably the best in history, in boxing terms, just like it bounced off of Holyfield's chin.

[cultus]

Have you seen film of Frazier from the sixties, pre-Ali, cultus? He looked just as fast as Tyson, but a better boxer. Tyson was always leaving his feet, jumping around, ungrounded. It's no wonder Holyfield sent him sliding across the ring and under the ropes from a bodyshot.

His career is done, so now I can say that Tyson, the glorified brawler, didn't work his way in or out of an opponent, like you're supposed to do...that's Boxing 101...he flew in wildly. Ali would have combo'ed his ass coming and going with little trouble. And what little trouble Tyson could have generated would have bounced off of Ali's chin, arguably the best in history, in boxing terms, just like it bounced off of Holyfield's chin.

Ali didn't have the best chin in history .. and arquably.. no, defenetely not.. he had good reflecses and when hit with a decent punch he would go down (like with cooper and frazier, forman was just too slow for Muhammad and .. well .. Ali did that stupified rope thing.. that was defenetely one of the most boring old time fights iv ever seen). Ali was fast, had good reflecses and oposition at that time wasn't much to brag about.
I honestly liked frazier and he was fast but not as explosive as Tyson and his chin wasn't much. .. But I havent seen Frazier before Ali... so that's that.

I understand what you say about Tyson.. and his jumping and it was one of his flaws... but your talkin about fight with the hollyfield .. it wasn't the same Tyson. Nobody could knock him down like.. that not Tucker, Razor or Smith... he wasn't out of balance. As I sad Ali vs Tyson would have been the best fight ever but how can people claim it would have been like one sided beating by ALI ... bullshit. Ali could have beaten Tyson but it could have gone the other way 50/50 ...

[Hesketh Vampire]

....oposition at that time wasn't much to brag about.

What are you talking about man? The 1970's was probably the strongest era in heavyweight history

[Sweet Scientist]

Have you seen film of Frazier from the sixties, pre-Ali, cultus? He looked just as fast as Tyson, but a better boxer. Tyson was always leaving his feet, jumping around, ungrounded. It's no wonder Holyfield sent him sliding across the ring and under the ropes from a bodyshot.

His career is done, so now I can say that Tyson, the glorified brawler, didn't work his way in or out of an opponent, like you're supposed to do...that's Boxing 101...he flew in wildly. Ali would have combo'ed his ass coming and going with little trouble. And what little trouble Tyson could have generated would have bounced off of Ali's chin, arguably the best in history, in boxing terms, just like it bounced off of Holyfield's chin.

Ali didn't have the best chin in history .. and arquably.. no, defenetely not.. he had good reflecses and when hit with a decent punch he would go down (like with cooper and frazier, forman was just too slow for Muhammad and .. well .. Ali did that stupified rope thing.. that was defenetely one of the most boring old time fights iv ever seen). Ali was fast, had good reflecses and oposition at that time wasn't much to brag about.
I honestly liked frazier and he was fast but not as explosive as Tyson and his chin wasn't much. .. But I havent seen Frazier before Ali... so that's that.

I understand what you say about Tyson.. and his jumping and it was one of his flaws... but your talkin about fight with the hollyfield .. it wasn't the same Tyson. Nobody could knock him down like.. that not Tucker, Razor or Smith... he wasn't out of balance. As I sad Ali vs Tyson would have been the best fight ever but how can people claim it would have been like one sided beating by ALI ... bullshit. Ali could have beaten Tyson but it could have gone the other way 50/50 ...

I'm sorry but I can't trust the opinion of someone who can't spell reflexes...finish school and try again....(I also can't trust the opinion of someone who says that Buster Douglas was better than Ali, Frazier & Foreman...talk about a minority opinion!!!)

[Sweet Scientist]

3.) Was Tyson 24 years old, 37-0-0, & in his prime when he got KTFO'd by Douglas...and then NEVER again won a meaningful fight the rest of his career?

3. no... and Douglas fight wasn't meningful at all .. he didn't prepeare for it ... and most of his corner wasn't even there. They pulled a darn condom to medicate his face.

Here's a little 'education' that you asked for...
That was a heavyweight championship fight...and the heavyweight champion was Tyson...it was VERY meaningful...or 'meningful' as you put it...If 'he didn't prepare for it', that's HIS OWN DAMN FAULT AND A TERRIBLE REFLECTION ON HIM AND HIS PATHETIC WORK ETHIC...AND TYSON WAS THE MAN WHO HIRED HIS CORNER PEOPLE AND SECONDS, THEY DIDN'T JUST WANDER IN OFF THE STREET...if they were incompetent, that reflects back to the man who hired them...so he's totally responsible for the outcome of that fight...he's also totally responsible for the fact that every time things weren't going his way in ANY prizefight he ever fought, he became completely unraveled...and lost...


...the mark of a real champion...

[KOJOE90]

Ali didn't have the best chin in history .. and arquably.. no, defenetely not.. he had good reflecses and when hit with a decent punch he would go down (like with cooper and frazier, ...

Sorry, but I REALLY can't agree wth that statement at all. Ali even by the admition of some of his harshest critics had a GREAT chin and incredable powers of recovery.

The shot that put him down in the 15th round against a peak Joe Frazier who was really smokin' that night would have stopped most Heavyweights in history in my opinion. also bearing in mind they had already fought a near full 15 rounds at a fast pace. But what did Ali do? Got up at the count of three.

Ali also took many huge shots against Frazier in Manilla and never went down, not once and Frazier had one of the most destuctive left hooks in Heavyweight history.

Also an old and near shot Ali took some huge shots from Earnie Shavers prehaps the most devastaing puncher EVER. The faded Ali took those shots and never went down.

Ali had a great chin and an almost inhuman ability to withstand punches to body and head.

[Cojimar 1945]

I was wondering if anyone knows how tall Tyson actually is? I have seen him listed as 5ft 8 3/4-5ft 11 1/2 and was wondering which one is most accurate?

[Syntax Error]

I was wondering if anyone knows how tall Tyson actually is? I have seen him listed as 5ft 8 3/4-5ft 11 1/2 and was wondering which one is most accurate?

I stood about 10 yards from him, when he came over to fight 'useless' Julis Francis in Manchester in 2000 & he's about my height & I'm 5ft 10ins.

[cultus]

English is my third language .. not everyone in this forum are from USA or GB.

I appreciate all the education. But still it seemed to me that all the opposition Ali fought was very inferior to Ali himselfe (most of them were very easy to hit or didn't hold much power). Ali was absolutely the best at that time but if you'd put him with Prime Tyson, Prime Holmes, Tucker, Smith, Razor, Lennox, Holyfield, Bowe it would have been a different story. I just can't see him being the greatest of all time.