I remember reading their was talk that sugar ray wanted to fight floyd patterson and he confronted cus d'Amato and cus said " dont even bother, u have no chance." something liek that. do u agree with Cus's assessment that sugar ray would not have beaten patterson had he tried to go up two weight classes??
i agree heres why. Patterson is bigger and stronger and his hands are JUST AS FAST . patterson hads one of the quickest hands in history and had power in his left hook and if he tagged robinson. sugar ray had an awesome chin but is not used to a hevayeights big punch and might have got knocked out. i just think patterson would have been too powerful and just as fast.
altough, if sugar got a hard shot on him patterson might have been dropped or been in a lot of trouble.
Floyd Patterson TKO 7
WHO WINS PATTERSON OR ROBINSON???
Sugar Ray Robinson vs Floyd Patterson
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
Robinson vs. Patterson
A lot depends on which Ray Robinson we are talking about here. In 1957 or 1958, Robinson was past his prime and would have had a very difficult time against Patterson. On the other hand, Robinson in 1951 may have had a shot against a prime Patterson, although he would have been giving away a lot of weight.
I heard that Robinson was looking past Maxim toward a fight with Marciano in 1952. The heat in the Maxim fight killed that idea. I don't know if it is true, but it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Robinson got past Maxim.
I heard that Robinson was looking past Maxim toward a fight with Marciano in 1952. The heat in the Maxim fight killed that idea. I don't know if it is true, but it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Robinson got past Maxim.
The heat is a cope out. Robinson lost becasue he was fighting above his natural weight against a man that was stronger, fitter and fighting at his natural weight class.
Maxim was fighting under the same heat as Robinson. It is not like Maxim was fighting under an air conditioned bubble while poor Robinson had to brave severe heat. They were suffering the same and the bigger, stronger man won. As simple as that. Size really does count and Robinson lost because he fought a man that was simply too big and strong for him.
I would expect the same if Mayweather would fight Hopkins: the size and power advantage would be too much and Mayweather would lose.
Robinson would have been battered by both Rocky and Patterson if they fought. P4P he was better than them, but the extra weight and power would have been to much. If he lost to Maxim, I dont see how anyone could be in doubt what would have happened against Marciano or Patterson.
Maxim was fighting under the same heat as Robinson. It is not like Maxim was fighting under an air conditioned bubble while poor Robinson had to brave severe heat. They were suffering the same and the bigger, stronger man won. As simple as that. Size really does count and Robinson lost because he fought a man that was simply too big and strong for him.
I would expect the same if Mayweather would fight Hopkins: the size and power advantage would be too much and Mayweather would lose.
Robinson would have been battered by both Rocky and Patterson if they fought. P4P he was better than them, but the extra weight and power would have been to much. If he lost to Maxim, I dont see how anyone could be in doubt what would have happened against Marciano or Patterson.
..forget the robinson/marciano talk.....when someone suggested that robinson should fight ezzard charles he said "Man...are trying to get me killed.....to give up all that weight?" He challanged maxim because maxim was not a puncher...and the word was he didn't intend to defend the light heavy title because he didn't want to give up that much poundage to harder hitting light heavys. whether he was going to retire with the title or leave it and go back to middleweights depends on who you talk to.
i'm not going to get into the heat factor in the maxim fight...except to say i do think the sugarman underestimated maxim's strength. maxim's boxing skills led a lot people to miss that he was a very strong light heavy.
as for patterson? the poster who gave the scenarios as to when the fight would have taken place is, i think, correct. ray at his peak in beating middleweights was too light for patterson...past his peak was too...well...to far past his peak. we have to keep in mind here that roboinson never had to struggle with weight making when he was a middie...often fought at around 153...unlike, say, lamotta who was a bull against the 160 pounders and could deal with light heavies, at least when it came to a question of strength alone.
i'm not going to get into the heat factor in the maxim fight...except to say i do think the sugarman underestimated maxim's strength. maxim's boxing skills led a lot people to miss that he was a very strong light heavy.
as for patterson? the poster who gave the scenarios as to when the fight would have taken place is, i think, correct. ray at his peak in beating middleweights was too light for patterson...past his peak was too...well...to far past his peak. we have to keep in mind here that roboinson never had to struggle with weight making when he was a middie...often fought at around 153...unlike, say, lamotta who was a bull against the 160 pounders and could deal with light heavies, at least when it came to a question of strength alone.
On the old question of the heat in the Maxim fight, I'd say there is one sense in which it did affect Robison more that Maxim. As noted, Maxim was the bigger stronger guy. Therefore Robinson had to be the one moving constantly in that fight while Maxim could be more economical and conserve energy; hence greater fatigue for Ray. So in effect, he punched himself out as much as he was affected by the heat, but you really can't seperate those two things in looking at how and why he faded like he did.
Good little story about this fight is that Doc Kearns knowing the discomfort the heat would cause nipped the psychological effect it may have on Maxim by wearing a white jumper in the corner.dan1030 wrote:On the old question of the heat in the Maxim fight, I'd say there is one sense in which it did affect Robison more that Maxim. As noted, Maxim was the bigger stronger guy. Therefore Robinson had to be the one moving constantly in that fight while Maxim could be more economical and conserve energy; hence greater fatigue for Ray. So in effect, he punched himself out as much as he was affected by the heat, but you really can't seperate those two things in looking at how and why he faded like he did.
Joey whilst in the ring sweating beads turned to the Doc, `What a night`
The Doc holding his sweater answered ` what do you mean, this is no heat, when Dempsey beat Willard it was 20 degrees hotter than this`.
Maxim was said to have laughed and relaxed noticably.
After the fight Maxim was asked by a reporter about the heat and replied. ` Doc shamed me into staying in there. All I could think about all through the fight was that Doc was still wearing his jumper`
Whats the saying about 80% mental 20% physical.
..of course the heat had a bigger effect on sugar ray.....but maxim did use it to his advantage....in addition to robinson moving more...maxim forced a lot of clinches and laid his weight upon ray and robinson kept trying to pull loose., and he drained his strength that way too. he would have been better off in just sagging and letting maxim virtually hold him up until the referee separated them...don't know how long this would have worked, though because, as we all know, the ref was felled by the heat before robinson was. i always felt this fight showed what a big puncher robinson was....he actually staggered maxim a couple of times...and maxim had a great chin and took a lot of punches from hard hitting heavies and light heavies...and was very hard to hurt.
writer dan parker a few times hinted he thought the sugarman went into the tank...but parker was very cynical, even for a boxing writer. forget who it was....might have been gene fullmer, who expressed the theory that each one bet on the other!
the talk of sugar ray and archie moore meeting was dismissed by nat fleischer who said "who'd pay to see two old men sparring without wanting to get hit?" it never really went beyond the talking stage.
writer dan parker a few times hinted he thought the sugarman went into the tank...but parker was very cynical, even for a boxing writer. forget who it was....might have been gene fullmer, who expressed the theory that each one bet on the other!
the talk of sugar ray and archie moore meeting was dismissed by nat fleischer who said "who'd pay to see two old men sparring without wanting to get hit?" it never really went beyond the talking stage.