OFF TOPIC: THE BOX REC OFFICIAL LIONS THREAD.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 27 Jun 2005, 11:28

Well quite.

This is why I cannot understand (and refuse to engage in) the constant whining on many forums about how SCW got the selection all wrong, and “there are too many Englishmen” ..and “not enough Welsh” ..and “Why didn’t he pick Henson!!”

It doesn’t matter.

They wouldn’t have won ….

The All Blacks have developed an awesome squad, and will only likely get even better in the second and third tests. Does anyone think Shane Williams on the wing, or Jason White in the back row will make a f**king ounce of difference to the final score line? Some people are just deluded.

You can write the ‘test tour’ off. I just hope the midweek side can beat Manawatu and Auckland.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 27 Jun 2005, 11:49

Always have agreed with your sentiments, Loftgroov. But, I feel particularly upset that time and time again this tour SIR Clive Woodward has lied.

He said he'd pick form players in the original touring party - Lie.

He singled out Colin Charvis as being very unlucky not to make the touring party - Lie.

He said he would pick on form for the test team - Lie (and note I am not dissapointed at Henson's ommision - overated player if you ask me).

I know the typical response will be that I am a bias Welshman, and maybe I am - but we surely demonstrated we were the best NH team in the six nations.

Plus - England lost heavily to New Zealand last year, Wales have run them close in their last two meeting - the last meeting by one point. I think they would have had a better chance if they would have played more than 4 of them.

states · Post by **states** » 28 Jun 2005, 04:11

Might be hard to keep Shane Williams out now: He's just run in his 4th try. With half an hour to go.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 28 Jun 2005, 04:16

Williams has been brilliant this morning. Not the biggest guy in the world but his feet are so quick that more than makes up for his lack of size.

I'm sure he'll make the 22 on saturday but not sure if Woodward will actually start him but I really think he should start him and move Lewsey to full back.

states · Post by **states** » 28 Jun 2005, 04:23

Thought Cusiter looked sharp in the first half as well. I've been impressed with him everytime I've seen him.

Game's a bit of a joke now.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 28 Jun 2005, 04:30

Its like a training game at the moment.

Why is Williams still on the field though? That would suggest to me he wont be starting on saturday.

Some of the decisions made by Woodward & co on this tour are mind boggling to say the least. He needs to get out of this picking his own boys mentality and get the best men for the job. Maybe they wont beat the All Blacks but they'll have to put up a better effort than they did at the weekend.

If Wilkinson is to play on Saturday then it needs to be at 10, a centre he is not. I think I'd give him the nod over Jones to be honest.

Cueto has just gone over its 81-6.

One more thing about tonight, the goal kicking has been piss poor. Both O'Gara and Hodgson have missed absolute sitters.

EDIT - O'Gara has just gone over its a massacre - could well be 100 points tonight. What good is this game doing exactly? 88-6

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 28 Jun 2005, 04:43

Williams has just got his 5th try to get the 100.

states · Post by **states** » 28 Jun 2005, 04:43

It is 100. Williams gets his 5th. Shouldn't be on the pitch though.

J · Post by J » 28 Jun 2005, 05:00

109-6

AND THE POINT OF THAT WAS?

thats like the All blacks playing Rosslyn park.

only positive is, williams now has to play, did anyone else notice how far charlie was kicking the ball? 50--70 yards.

gotta be worth having on the bench at least for the test .

states · Post by **states** » 28 Jun 2005, 05:36

He's the form fly-half of the tour. Place-kicking is a major worry though.

Sod it, Hodgson at 10, let Henson do the kicking.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Jun 2005, 05:46

1. Jenkins
2. Byrne
3. White
4. O Connell
5. O Callaghan
6. Easterby
7. Williams
8. Jones
9. Peel
10. Hodgson
11. Williams
12. Henson (if fit and if the rumours are not true)
13. Thomas (Capt)
14. Murphy
15. Lewsey.

Bench.
Sheridan, Bulloch, Shaw, Corry, Cussiter, Wilkinson, Horgan.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 28 Jun 2005, 06:26

stujones wrote:1. Jenkins
2. Byrne
3. White
4. O Connell
5. O Callaghan
6. Easterby
7. Williams
8. Jones
9. Peel
10. Hodgson
11. Williams
12. Henson (if fit and if the rumours are not true)
13. Thomas (Capt)
14. Murphy
15. Lewsey.

Bench.
Sheridan, Bulloch, Shaw, Corry, Cussiter, Wilkinson, Horgan.

I sure as sh*t hope I don't see Shane Byrne at Hooker after last weekend...

Otherwise I pretty much agree with that lineup. Not sure about Williams trying to beat McCaw at the breakdown though, and hence Back might remain the best bet here. (though admittedly Williams has been very good recently).

Incidently Stu, I don't regard you as a whining Welshman, and actually agree with you that SCW has basically lied on a few occasions. The one problem I do have with many celtic posters on a rugby forum I go on is that they seem to just continually push their own national agenda - and it isn't needed.

There is a stark difference (in general) in what’s said. Many Irish, Scottish & English posters are already on there talking about how it was a good all round performance, with loads of tries from different players etc. But the Welsh posts are JUST either;

(a) Shane Williams is brilliant
(b) SCW is a stupid knob (for some reason)

It just gets boring after a while, it’s so very myopic and one-eyed. I sincerely believe that many welsh supporters would prefer the All Blacks to beat the Lions, but Welshmen to have got 4 tries in the game, than the Lions to win, but with Englishmen getting all the points. It’s daft …but that’s my call as I see it.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 28 Jun 2005, 06:37

For example;

Shane W won't play on Saturday. LlambedMonas - 15th post - 28 Jun 2005 11:12
3 reasons why not:
1. He's on form (yes, yes, pitiful opponents who even left Jason Robinson score past them but 5 tries, a great Celtic league and a brilliant 6 nations = form)

2. He's not english

3. a) He adds an attacking side to the Lions game plan and might actually score some points so b) he doesn't fit in with the "stick it up the jumper" english style of play.

Bring on the anti-english accusations against me but can anyone argue that i'm wrong??!

In light of a really good 109-6 win for the "British" Lions, the first thing he feels compelled to post is 'anti-English sentiment'...

J · Post by J » 28 Jun 2005, 06:38

yip i agree no Byrne, thompson to play.

Some of the welsh have been a bit like that but most as my mates havent been too bad, to be honest and in some caes they have a point.

They can genuinly see/hear my distress at the way things have been going and apart form one moment when i lost it and said"look im english and rugby fan but i dont pick the friggin side, its not my fault Woodward is picking a different side to me, what do you want me to do about it, get on a plane and usurp SCW"

they have all been pretty measured after that.

Agree with you comments bout stu, and yourself and coconut really enjoyed chatitng it all through with you guys.

good stuff

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Jun 2005, 06:43

I know Byrne had a mere vs All Blacks, but sorry none of the options available would have done better.

Thompson was a brilliant 16th man for Wales vs England this year and he has been that way for the last few years (including the world cup run). He has been poor all tour.

Bullock has been equally inconsistent over the years and in the tour and seems to be "contented" in the midweek slot, I think the pressure will get to him also.

Titteral has been non-existent all tour, I couldn't even tell you his form as he has hardly been played.

Pre tour selection I saw this as a close race between Shane Byrne and Mehfin Davies - now I would think Mehfin would be a certainty

As for SCW, no I don't think he is a stupid knob but I do think he is a vastly overated coach and had said that before this tour. He had a huge range of assistance helping him out with England plus he had a great squad of players who peaked (well just past their peak) on the most prestigious stage of them all. The fact he stuck by them even though they are now clearly past their best two years on speaks alot about his coaching.

I don't like to be accused of bias but Mike Ruddock is working with pretty much the same core of players that Steve Hanson had with Wales and has turned them from Wooden Spoon contendors to slam winners and its looking good beyond that. He's done it at club level aswell with Swansea, Leinster and the NG Dragons.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Jun 2005, 06:53

Biggest dissapointment for me this tour has to be the form of the two main 12s.

D'arcy has gone for world player of the year in 2004 to midweek certainty.

Henson has gone from the new Beckham to not a test certainty.

These two were expected to have a fierce rivarly for the test spot and both described as world class, what has happend to them I don't know.

If Henson isn't fit, I'd be tempted to give D'arcy a go. I know he hasn't been the form player (although hasn't stopped SCW before) as the saying goes though form is temporary, class is perminant. Perhaps the huge stage will see the best of D'Arcy who is a world class player, no doubt.

J · Post by J » 28 Jun 2005, 06:55

if henson isnt fit id play lewsey or thomas in the centre.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Jun 2005, 06:56

J wrote:if henson isnt fit id play lewsey or thomas in the centre.

So who would you have at 13.

My team already has Thomas at 13 (it will help Shane out also).

states · Post by **states** » 28 Jun 2005, 06:57

I'd rather see D'arcy, or even Olly Smith, ahead of Greenwood.

I've always been a big, big fan of his, but he's lucky to be on tour. His time, sadly, has passed. Injuries and age have caught up with him.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 28 Jun 2005, 06:59

Lewsey has been superb when I've seen him at centre I have to say. He could do a job there, with Thomas at FB, and Williams & Robinson/Murphy on the wings.

Henson & Lewsey at centres? They'd tackle like bastards all game long.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 28 Jun 2005, 07:05

Lewsey is the best full back in the squad by a mile I think, Thomas could play there with Lewsey at centre I guess but I'd have Lewsey at 15.

Robinson should never play fullback again he was shocking last weekend. I've never fancied him there to be honest, always think he's better on the wing. But in this squad I dont think he's even worth a place out there ahead of some of the others.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Jun 2005, 07:10

I haven't seen Lewsey in the centre but no he is an excellent attacking option at Full Back or on the wing.

I have seen Thomas at centre and I know he is class there.

Thomas is a safe full back, but seems to be wasted there (look at his try count at Full back, 1 try at international level). He seems to adopted a more saftey first approach, so I would have Lewsey accomodating full back, with Thomas centre and the wings covered by Williams and Murphy.

Shame Kevin Morgan isn't there. I think he would be a test certainty now.

mikey h · Post by **mikey h** » 28 Jun 2005, 08:51

I just hope that hope that whoever SCW picks for saturdays test plays with a bit of passion. Saturdays performance was awful, but plus points from the game were that the all blacks didnt run in 50 points (they derserved to). Even though they dominated the 1st 40 mins they wern't up by many points. If the lions can score a few points in the firsty half on saturday, make a few big hits and cut down there from scoring opportunities, then we may have a game on our hands, still don't know what the All Blacks are like under pressure, can they play the same free flowing rugby in a tight game ? Hope SCW does change a few things round but he is a stubborn character and it wouldn't suprise me if he was to stick with the same team this saturday, which for me would be a disaster. Surely we can't be any worse this saturday, so lets hope we can get a win aginst all odds. Not as optimistic as i was before saturday, but still hoping for a 2-1 seris win.

mikey h · Post by **mikey h** » 29 Jun 2005, 03:26

Lions: 15-Josh Lewsey (England); 14-Jason Robinson (England), 13-Gareth Thomas (captain, Wales), 12-Gavin Henson (Wales), 11-Shane Williams (Wales); 10-Jonny Wilkinson (England), 9-Dwayne Peel (Wales); 8-Ryan Jones (Wales), 7-Lewis Moody (England), 6-Simon Easterby (Ireland), 5-Donncha O'Callaghan (Ireland), 4-Paul O'Connell (Ireland); 3-Julian White (England), 2-Steve Thompson (England), 1-Gethin Jenkins (Wales).
Replacements: 16-Shane Byrne (Ireland), 17-Graham Rowntree (England), 18-Martin Corry (England), 19-Martyn Williams (Wales), 20-Matt Dawson (England), 21-Stephen Jones (Wales), 22-Shane Horgan (Ireland).

Better team than last saturday, lets hope they can get a result.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 29 Jun 2005, 03:45

There's a rumour that Robinson's selection is based on sponsor influence.

I don't know. Not a shit load of options if he sees Horgan as worthy of a test place...

I like the look of the side, seems Sheridan's unlucky. Apparently, the man can bench press small African nations. But no real complaints - he's gone back to his 'picking on form' roots in many cases and let's hope it works. Down to the boys now. If they can't pull it out then buy Guinness shares.