Tony "Doc" Doherty

[kamicazze]

is arnie anthony farnell?

[Deserter]

I believe "talent" is a fallacy anyway. Don't want to get too much into it on here because I cba to write long posts and go back and forth.

I disagree and believe that some people have talent - or aptitude, if you prefer - that gives them an innate competitive advantage over others with less talent for performing a particular kind of activity at a certain level. I agree, though, that it is not worth us going back and forth on the issue. I'm right, you're wrong. We'll leave it at that. D

Macho, have you read 'Bounce' by Matthew Syed. Great read and challenged a number of my assumptions regarding 'natural talent'. Some great other points made by you and Gray-Fox re. mental strength and the importance of what Syed terms 'purposeful practice' in his book.

[Des1]

Hiya guys, I normally just read the forums but after reading this post decided to get let you know the real story.

Tony Doherty is one of the most talented kids I've worked with. Back at the start of 2010, Gavin Rees, Bradley Pryce and Tony Doherty decided it was time for a change and left Enzo to start afresh under me at Fight Academy Wales (Darren Wilson's gym). Tony and I were at the same amateur club under Tony Williams and then both under Brian Hughes in Manchester so we go back years, he is my friend and I'd never run him down but what a massive waste of talent!! I never talk about sparring outside of the gym but I've seen Tony make world champions look completely clueless in sparring. His problem is that I just don't think he wants to fight, I think his Dad Simon wants him to fight more than he does. I pulled him off a bill 10 days before he was due to fight back in December because he was 12 lbs overweight - he could have lost the weight but thats not the way I work. Unfortunately he has never been back to the gym since then. He is under a management contract with me and my door is always open if he can dedicate himself to the gym and his diet which he's never been able to do!

Tony is a very respectful lad and a brilliant fighter and there isn't a day that goes past when I don't wonder what he could have done with his God-given talent. He raced to 20-0 without ever training hard and never ever running! Breaks my heart :(

great lad he came to our gym and sparred with Danny Butler and is a real talent and one of the niceset boxers i have met.Gary if u see him tell him to come here Danny got a fight coming up and Tony could reallt help him such a talent and, Gary theres a lot of top boxers that dont run You dont run round a boxing ring Thank god for younger trainers that dont believe you have to run to get fit theres plenty of other ways to get fit and not put to much stress on the body Its suits some boxers but not all of them x

With all due respect that is a crazy way of thinking that a boxer doesn't need to run. Running is one of the most best and economical ways of getting fit. Stress on the body running? Punching a bag is stress on the body aswell. You need an element of stress on the body to toughen up and get fit. Fighters who dont run would be a whole lot fitter if they did. You cant have the attitude that it 'suits some boxers but not others' when it comes to running or any part of training. This is boxing, this is the training schedule and you do it. Some fights tough and awkward fights might not 'suit' them but they have to (or should) battle through it. Sure there are ways of getting fit without running but you would never be as fit as you can without including running, thats a fact.

[matko]

I think Tony is a perfect example from what we are reading "You can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink" its frustraing when you see guys with so much talent who dont wanna do it as i know fighters like this and can relate with Gary, you can give someone talent you are born with it also grit too is another thing a fighter has or hasnt. Also What is geraint harvey up to?

[Deserter]

theres a lot of top boxers that dont run You dont run round a boxing ring Thank god for younger trainers that dont believe you have to run to get fit theres plenty of other ways to get fit and not put to much stress on the body Its suits some boxers but not all of them x

Jane, no disrespect, but I think you're missing the point - as I understand it, it's not that Tony was utilising other fitness methods as an alternative to running, but rather than he wasn't doing anything at all, which was indicative of his lack of commitment.
On a related note, running remains an exceptional method for improving fitness and doesn't need to put too much stress on the body if you do it properly - the old days of long, steady-state runs need to go out the window and replaced by interval training, sprints etc to maximise results though, in my opinion.

[kamicazze]

Running is an excellent tool but some fighters cannot run if they have a bad knee or so on. You can develop fitness through just hard sparring, running is more of a weight loss tool imo. Its well known that david diaz who happened to be a very fit fighter, only used swimming in the lead up to his fights.

[cutthecacklebullyup]

I read interviews with jim mcdonell, brian hughes and james cook all mentioning tony doherty as the gifted one. I believe one of them was referring to a drill about when your meant to stand with your back foot on a piece of toilet paper, here you avoid punches and throw some back without moving back foot. if the paper is ripped then you fail. Believe they said no one could do it perfect with the exception of doc. He is also phenomenol on the floor to ceiling ball. He made Barrie Jones look like a journeyman, which not even brook or m'baye could do.

frankie gavin did!

[kamicazze]

I read interviews with jim mcdonell, brian hughes and james cook all mentioning tony doherty as the gifted one. I believe one of them was referring to a drill about when your meant to stand with your back foot on a piece of toilet paper, here you avoid punches and throw some back without moving back foot. if the paper is ripped then you fail. Believe they said no one could do it perfect with the exception of doc. He is also phenomenol on the floor to ceiling ball. He made Barrie Jones look like a journeyman, which not even brook or m'baye could do.

frankie gavin did!

Frankie Gavin hasnt fought Barrie jones? Up to the point of fighting doherty, Jones was one of Warrent's top prospects. Then afterward he has been used as a gate keeper for many of the weights fighters. Lost by ko 7 to brook, lost a dubious decision to soulemayne m'baye who is now a wba welterweight champ somehow

[Rocky Balboa]

Hiya guys, I normally just read the forums but after reading this post decided to get let you know the real story.

Tony Doherty is one of the most talented kids I've worked with. Back at the start of 2010, Gavin Rees, Bradley Pryce and Tony Doherty decided it was time for a change and left Enzo to start afresh under me at Fight Academy Wales (Darren Wilson's gym). Tony and I were at the same amateur club under Tony Williams and then both under Brian Hughes in Manchester so we go back years, he is my friend and I'd never run him down but what a massive waste of talent!! I never talk about sparring outside of the gym but I've seen Tony make world champions look completely clueless in sparring. His problem is that I just don't think he wants to fight, I think his Dad Simon wants him to fight more than he does. I pulled him off a bill 10 days before he was due to fight back in December because he was 12 lbs overweight - he could have lost the weight but thats not the way I work. Unfortunately he has never been back to the gym since then. He is under a management contract with me and my door is always open if he can dedicate himself to the gym and his diet which he's never been able to do!

Tony is a very respectful lad and a brilliant fighter and there isn't a day that goes past when I don't wonder what he could have done with his God-given talent. He raced to 20-0 without ever training hard and never ever running! Breaks my heart :(

Welcome Gary, nice to hear the door is open for Tony.... lets just hope one day he realises that he's just got one shot at life and we comes back.

Yes, but you can't get TIME back! Tony needs to Fix up, Pronto! Its not use Fixing up when the Gravy Train is miles down the track!

[Deserter]

I disagree and believe that some people have talent - or aptitude, if you prefer - that gives them an innate competitive advantage over others with less talent for performing a particular kind of activity at a certain level. I agree, though, that it is not worth us going back and forth on the issue. I'm right, you're wrong. We'll leave it at that. D

Macho, have you read 'Bounce' by Matthew Syed. Great read and challenged a number of my assumptions regarding 'natural talent'. Some great other points made by you and Gray-Fox re. mental strength and the importance of what Syed terms 'purposeful practice' in his book.

I have and it is thought provoking but I disagree with his myth of talent notion. Purposeful practice is Matthew's way of rehashing the age old principle of specificity, something that I have always been a huge advocate of in my sporting and professional life. Drilling a technique into somebody by practicing over and over again is critical to success. Your body adapts, your mind adapts and you improve. I'm 100% with him there. In my view, though, innate aptitude cannot be overlooked and certainly should not be dismissed as a myth. When we appear from the womb we are 50% mum and 50% dad, as they were ad infinitum, and that genetic makeup is, to me at least, the single most important determinent of what we have the potential to become. A whole host of things will either cause us to limit or come close to reaching that potential.

Of course in sports like cycling, running, weightlifting, swimming, rowing and other sports that are fairly closed skill it is easy to see how genetic potential is a limiting factor. So too in a sport like bodybuilding where genetics are critical.

In more highly skilled sports, golf, football, etc the raw material that I believe constitute the necessary talent for those sports are a blend of qualities that include but are no way limited to hand eye coordination, muscle fibre ratios, spacial awareness etc that are beneficial to the particular activity. These are things that you are born with to a greater and lesser degree than others.

Even elements required to conduct the purposeful practice/SAID principle are, in many ways, another form of innate aptitude. Determination, drive, aggression, single-mindedness etc are largely inherited; yes they can be developed but only as much as your genetic potential allows.

Great post and agree with a lot of what you say. Wrong place for the discusssion, but I'd be interested in how you've reached the conclusions mentioned in your final paragraph.

[Jeff Thomas]

Sure there are ways of getting fit without running but you would never be as fit as you can without including running, thats a fact.

Sorry to be pedantic but it is not a fact, it's an opinion.

An opinion that I don't agree with at all. I run often but a good circuit can be far more beneficial then a run.

I know plenty of super fit people who NEVER run. Why would it be any different for a boxer? I can give you plenty of reasons why running can actually have a negative effect on training.

[TheCobra]

Frustrating as it is boxing (and life) is littered with these stories of people born with the greatest talent who cannot match that with application and dedication. It's a great shame though I do also agree with the guy who said maybe his early record flattered him a little, he was in mainly against journyemen types and if he was getting away with not doing the groundwork maybe that became deep-seeded in him, that he could just do it all easily.

Maybe if he'd had a few tests earlier he would have been exposed sooner or conversely got his arse into gear sooner? Who knows. Still sad to hear about people wasting a talent, but for me boxing is 50/50 talent vs dedication and you have to have a good mix of both to get the titles.

[Des1]

Sure there are ways of getting fit without running but you would never be as fit as you can without including running, thats a fact.

Sorry to be pedantic but it is not a fact, it's an opinion.

An opinion that I don't agree with at all. I run often but a good circuit can be far more beneficial then a run.

I know plenty of super fit people who NEVER run. Why would it be any different for a boxer? I can give you plenty of reasons why running can actually have a negative effect on training.

Thats probably why you tell yourself its an opinion and not a fact because you dont agree with it. I'm not doubting that there are super fit people who dont run but they would be fitter if they did run and that is a fact. Running is the best exercise for lung capacity and its not just about losing weight which someone has said on here. Running can be done at different tempos, speeds and level surfaces and is a very important part of a boxers training schedule. So if your run is just a 'plod' thats most probably why you have that opinion. Of course if your going to run it should be done properly like all parts of training. Anyway, just off for a power run...to build my fitness up

[Coco]

Fighters fight, runners run

[Deserter]

Fighters fight, runners run

Tell Calzaghe that Marc, those hill-runs didn't seem to do his stamina any harm

[Coco]

Fighters fight, runners run

Tell Calzaghe that Marc, those hill-runs didn't seem to do his stamina any harm

Prob about right! Tbh I have always run and felt I needed too, there are plenty that don't though, apparently Eubank didn't, my mate Miguel Matthews rarely run and he was one of the fittest I have known, he would just spar constantly, maybe if I run less.........!lol

[Deserter]

Fighters fight, runners run

Tell Calzaghe that Marc, those hill-runs didn't seem to do his stamina any harm

Prob about right! Tbh I have always run and felt I needed too, there are plenty that don't though, apparently Eubank didn't, my mate Miguel Matthews rarely run and he was one of the fittest I have known, he would just spar constantly, maybe if I run less.........!lol

[Jeff Thomas]

Sure there are ways of getting fit without running but you would never be as fit as you can without including running, thats a fact.

Sorry to be pedantic but it is not a fact, it's an opinion.

An opinion that I don't agree with at all. I run often but a good circuit can be far more beneficial then a run.

I know plenty of super fit people who NEVER run. Why would it be any different for a boxer? I can give you plenty of reasons why running can actually have a negative effect on training.

Thats probably why you tell yourself its an opinion and not a fact because you dont agree with it. I'm not doubting that there are super fit people who dont run but they would be fitter if they did run and that is a fact. Running is the best exercise for lung capacity and its not just about losing weight which someone has said on here. Running can be done at different tempos, speeds and level surfaces and is a very important part of a boxers training schedule. So if your run is just a 'plod' thats most probably why you have that opinion. Of course if your going to run it should be done properly like all parts of training. Anyway, just off for a power run...to build my fitness up

Define fitness-

And it's not a fact. Fact.

[Jeff Thomas]

I've been running with boxers who don't know what they are running for and that's the problem.

Are you running to burn extra calories?

Are you running to develop economy and efficiency?

Are you running to develop aerobic capacity and endurance?

Are you running to raise your anaerobic threshold and improve lactate clearance?

Are you running to increase maximum power?

etc....

or

Are you running just because?

There's more than one way to skin a cat; some better than others. Providing you (or the person directing you) know why you're training and you are continuing to improve in all departments of fitness, happy days.

The macho man mystery continues

[charlieb]

The lack of pop in his punches you talk about is because he was fighting at a weight that was way above what he should have been. In the amateurs he had around 30 ko's where he was either stopping guys with body shots or knocking them flat out. I know that Jimmy McDonnell rated him very highly when he trained him, the reality was that for his fight with McIntyre he lost something like 50lbs in four weeks to make weight. I believe if he had really applied himself then he could have been a real world champion, not just a paper champion.

Wow, that's insane. He was about 200lbs when he got the call to fight McIntyre?

What weight did he compete at as an am?

[Des1]

Sorry to be pedantic but it is not a fact, it's an opinion.

An opinion that I don't agree with at all. I run often but a good circuit can be far more beneficial then a run.

I know plenty of super fit people who NEVER run. Why would it be any different for a boxer? I can give you plenty of reasons why running can actually have a negative effect on training.

Thats probably why you tell yourself its an opinion and not a fact because you dont agree with it. I'm not doubting that there are super fit people who dont run but they would be fitter if they did run and that is a fact. Running is the best exercise for lung capacity and its not just about losing weight which someone has said on here. Running can be done at different tempos, speeds and level surfaces and is a very important part of a boxers training schedule. So if your run is just a 'plod' thats most probably why you have that opinion. Of course if your going to run it should be done properly like all parts of training. Anyway, just off for a power run...to build my fitness up

Define fitness-

And it's not a fact. Fact.

Jeff, it is a fact. I'm not saying that you cant get fit without running because you can but by adding running (not plodding) to your training routine will make you considerably fitter especially by doing hill and interval runs. As I've said and is a proven fact, running increases your lung capacity as well being the most efficient way of building fitness.

[Jeff Thomas]

Thats probably why you tell yourself its an opinion and not a fact because you dont agree with it. I'm not doubting that there are super fit people who dont run but they would be fitter if they did run and that is a fact. Running is the best exercise for lung capacity and its not just about losing weight which someone has said on here. Running can be done at different tempos, speeds and level surfaces and is a very important part of a boxers training schedule. So if your run is just a 'plod' thats most probably why you have that opinion. Of course if your going to run it should be done properly like all parts of training. Anyway, just off for a power run...to build my fitness up

Define fitness-

And it's not a fact. Fact.

Jeff, it is a fact. I'm not saying that you cant get fit without running because you can but by adding running (not plodding) to your training routine will make you considerably fitter especially by doing hill and interval runs. As I've said and is a proven fact, running increases your lung capacity as well being the most efficient way of building fitness.

Wanking can also build your lung capacity. Fact.

Who says running is the most efficient way to build fitness. Cite me an expert who says that Des.

Also what adaption specific to running makes it more effective a training method then any other exercise?

[TerribleTerry]

Wasn't Miguel Matthews a life long smoker as well Marc?

[curtis wood]

i agree you need to run i do 1 long run a week and then during the week i do a lot of 200m 400m 800m with rest inbetween depending on where i am in my training depends how many i do and how long rest i have running also helps with the mental side of the sport if you go into the ring knowing you have put the miles in it gives you that mental toughness and ive had 6 operations on my knee so people using the excuse that its bad for your knees thats rubbish some people dont like running for 1 reason its hard and some boxers dont like hard graft believe it or not

[palooka]

Define fitness-

And it's not a fact. Fact.

Jeff, it is a fact. I'm not saying that you cant get fit without running because you can but by adding running (not plodding) to your training routine will make you considerably fitter especially by doing hill and interval runs. As I've said and is a proven fact, running increases your lung capacity as well being the most efficient way of building fitness.

Wanking can also build your lung capacity. Fact.

Who says running is the most efficient way to build fitness. Cite me an expert who says that Des.

Also what adaption specific to running makes it more effective a training method then any other exercise?

Don't let them all into the secret Jeff or I'll blow your house down