Classic American West Coast Boxing

[Cholo]

If Shavers, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lyle couldn't KO Ali, could Dempsey? there's no way Dempsey could of outboxed a peak Ali. And how about Georges Carpentier he shook Dempsey real bad and was only a small Light-Heavy, Jack Sharkey was kicking Dempsey all over the ring until he turned to the referee after being hit low. And quality of opponents, Willard, Miske (who was suffering with liver disease) Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, Firpo i don't think match up with Ali's opponents.
And Dempsey was KO'd in a round by Jim Flynn in 1917..

[Rick Farris]

If Shavers, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lyle couldn't KO Ali, could Dempsey? there's no way Dempsey could of outboxed a peak Ali. And how about Georges Carpentier he shook Dempsey real bad and was only a small Light-Heavy, Jack Sharkey was kicking Dempsey all over the ring until he turned to the referee after being hit low. And quality of opponents, Willard, Miske (who was suffering with liver disease) Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, Firpo i don't think match up with Ali's opponents.
And Dempsey was KO'd in a round by Jim Flynn in 1917..

Nobody is discounting Ali's chin. He was a catcher, and had the chin to back it up. Hence his problems today.
As for the heavyweights you mentioned above, none were like Dempsey in anyway. And to be honest, did Ali beat Jimmy Young? Or Frazier in the second fight? Or Norton in any match, and Dempsey and Carpantier were closer in size than Ali and Doug Jones. Jones was a blown-up light heavy who troubled Cassius Clay tio no end. Sonny banks floored Ali, Copper and Frazier. Ali had no power to hold off a glass chinned Ken Norton. What's he going to do with a Dempsey? I also believe Tyson at his best beats Ali at his best. Ali is highly over rated, not to mention boring. Much of the state of boxing today, the run away game, can be attributed to Ali. Muhammad Ali was not a sklled boxer on any level. No defense, no punch, just a lot of heart and great reflexes. I'll put Dempsey's heart up against Ali's anytime, the difference being, Ali would needs his to absorb the damage he'd experience in a bout with Dempsey, as he did with anybody he ever fought who was fit and in their prime. My opinion.

[Cholo]

Rick, I love reading about Dempsey's era, the likes of Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, how about Dempsey/Greb, they say Greb gave Dempsey a torrid time when they sparred once. Do you think Greb could have beaten Dempsey?..

[Panzerfaust]

If Shavers, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lyle couldn't KO Ali, could Dempsey? there's no way Dempsey could of outboxed a peak Ali. And how about Georges Carpentier he shook Dempsey real bad and was only a small Light-Heavy, Jack Sharkey was kicking Dempsey all over the ring until he turned to the referee after being hit low. And quality of opponents, Willard, Miske (who was suffering with liver disease) Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, Firpo i don't think match up with Ali's opponents.
And Dempsey was KO'd in a round by Jim Flynn in 1917..

First let me say i find it difficult to make long posts in English and getting it right(it ussually turns out to be a bloody mess when i try) so ill try to keep it short.

in the late 10's early 20's with 4-5 oz gloves and no rule about returning to a neutral corner after a knockdown? I could see a knockout yes.hence i can also see how Dempsey could get whacked by Flynn.

I believe the underrated speed and agressivness of Dempsey would cause Ali all kinds of grief.

As for the opponents i now see Rick covered it and saved me 30 min of writing

In the end its all a matter of opinions and thats all it is

[Panzerfaust]

Rick, I love reading about Dempsey's era, the likes of Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, how about Dempsey/Greb, they say Greb gave Dempsey a torrid time when they sparred once. Do you think Greb could have beaten Dempsey?..

I read those reports aswell for the Miske fight right?

[Panzerfaust]

Bernard Docusen- Ray Robinson : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qORkfNN ... re=related

[raylawpc]

If Shavers, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lyle couldn't KO Ali, could Dempsey? there's no way Dempsey could of outboxed a peak Ali. And how about Georges Carpentier he shook Dempsey real bad and was only a small Light-Heavy, Jack Sharkey was kicking Dempsey all over the ring until he turned to the referee after being hit low. And quality of opponents, Willard, Miske (who was suffering with liver disease) Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, Firpo i don't think match up with Ali's opponents.
And Dempsey was KO'd in a round by Jim Flynn in 1917..

I don't do comparisons between guys from different eras, but one thing you have to consider is that Ali was knocked down four times in his career - three times by left hooks. Nobody had a better left hook than Dempsey. Also, Dempsey fought with a bob-and-weave crouching style similar to the bob-and-weave style Frazier employed to trouble Ali - except Dempsey was quicker than Frazier.

Billy Miske went 20-1-1 after losing to Dempsey. I tend to think his illness has been overstated.

[raylawpc]

Rick, I love reading about Dempsey's era, the likes of Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, how about Dempsey/Greb, they say Greb gave Dempsey a torrid time when they sparred once. Do you think Greb could have beaten Dempsey?..

Sparring ain't fighting. According to Benny Leonard - as proven by Tunney in his second and subsequent fights with Greb - you could beat Greb by going to the body. Dempsey was a devastating body puncher. I personally think Dempsey would have ground Greb down and stopped him in the later rounds.

[raylawpc]

Rick, I love reading about Dempsey's era, the likes of Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, how about Dempsey/Greb, they say Greb gave Dempsey a torrid time when they sparred once. Do you think Greb could have beaten Dempsey?..

I read those reports aswell for the Miske fight right?

Remy, Dempsey and Greb sparred three rounds each on September 2 and 3, 1920 and two rounds on September 4, 1920. The sparring sessions on the 2nd and 3rd were "lively," but not so much the one on the third. As I recall, one account said Dempsey might have been pulling his punches against Greb, who was 25 pounds lighter. (On the other hand, it would have been uncharacteristic for Dempsey to go easy on a sparring partner.)

[CNorkusJr]

If Shavers, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lyle couldn't KO Ali, could Dempsey? there's no way Dempsey could of outboxed a peak Ali. And how about Georges Carpentier he shook Dempsey real bad and was only a small Light-Heavy, Jack Sharkey was kicking Dempsey all over the ring until he turned to the referee after being hit low. And quality of opponents, Willard, Miske (who was suffering with liver disease) Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, Firpo i don't think match up with Ali's opponents.
And Dempsey was KO'd in a round by Jim Flynn in 1917..

I don't do comparisons between guys from different eras, but one thing you have to consider is that Ali was knocked down four times in his career - three times by left hooks. Nobody had a better left hook than Dempsey. Also, Dempsey fought with a bob-and-weave crouching style similar to the bob-and-weave style Frazier employed to trouble Ali - except Dempsey was quicker than Frazier.

Billy Miske went 20-1-1 after losing to Dempsey. I tend to think his illness has been overstated.

I agree with you Tom. I dont compare fighters from different eras. My father was always caught in the same squabble wherever he went. As you can see, my father met just about every champion in most weight classes through the modern era. He had a good repoire with them, with much respect by them for my father, and my father in awe of the Champion and contenders- friend in front of him.
He told me as time rolled on through boxing history-many things changed the scope of the game.
Though basically the bottom line was to outscore or beat your opponent outright-and to definately WIN the title from the Champion outright. A close match should go to the Champion was understood by all boxers whether home or on the road.(Certainly judges/refs and especially foreign officials has askewed that reasoning over the years).
He would always be asked if Marciano can beat Ali, can Dempsey beat Holmes, ect ect.
My father always said you can make all the statistical comparisons you want. Compu-box the thing. Do whatever you want to think-but the two must meet in the ring to get your answer. That you will not get an answer from him on who would win. My father said the hardest puncher he ever saw was Marciano. Period. If he landed-its lights out.Period.
But he believed Marciano could be beat by contemporaries. He cited the LaStarza fight in particular. Also, Archie Moore was his toughest opponent,his defense was more used than his offense ,and Moore had sting in his punches-more than Ezzard Charles. At, least in the nights they fought my father.
But he taught me that you cannot compare fighters from different eras. Too many variables. Your answers must come from the ring.
I buy into that reasoning.
By the way, he thought the Ali-Marciano computer fight was a farce and a set-up. A means of entertainment for the boxing public.They both made out $$$$ wise in the end-with no one getting hurt but maybe Ali's reputation. He was surprised to hear that Ali went with the final outcome.But $$$ talk.He then remembered that Ali went against wrestler Ioaki in Japan,and remembering Iaoki laying on the mat spinning trying to kick out Ali's legs and said " There you have it".

My father did tell me that left-hooks were made for primarily right-handed opponents. My father used his "equalizer" well during his career and a right-hander better be ready for it if he knows his opponent has one in his pocket.If you can close your opponents right eye-the better. He did it against Ezz Charles-look at the video-but Charles was too cunning to let my father get his left hooks in. Charles knew my father had one. He wilted my father away at the end before my father could use it effectively.

[Rick Farris]

Charlie Norkus wrote:

But he taught me that you cannot compare fighters from different eras. Too many variables. Your answers must come from the ring.
I buy into that reasoning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I buy into that reasoning as well, too many variables, rules, conditions, etc.
However, I'd hate to be a heavyweight of any era that had to face a punisher like Dempsey in the ring.
Ali? Not a champion known for damaging his opposition.

[Rick Farris]

If Shavers, Foreman, Liston, Frazier, Lyle couldn't KO Ali, could Dempsey? there's no way Dempsey could of outboxed a peak Ali. And how about Georges Carpentier he shook Dempsey real bad and was only a small Light-Heavy, Jack Sharkey was kicking Dempsey all over the ring until he turned to the referee after being hit low. And quality of opponents, Willard, Miske (who was suffering with liver disease) Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, Firpo i don't think match up with Ali's opponents.
And Dempsey was KO'd in a round by Jim Flynn in 1917..

First let me say i find it difficult to make long posts in English and getting it right(it ussually turns out to be a bloody mess when i try) so ill try to keep it short.

in the late 10's early 20's with 4-5 oz gloves and no rule about returning to a neutral corner after a knockdown? I could see a knockout yes.hence i can also see how Dempsey could get whacked by Flynn.

I believe the underrated speed and agressivness of Dempsey would cause Ali all kinds of grief.

As for the opponents i now see Rick covered it and saved me 30 min of writing

In the end its all a matter of opinions and thats all it is

If nothing else, we all have our opinions!
And I respect everybody's opinion here, whether we agree or not.
We all know boxing pretty well.

[CNorkusJr]

Charlie Norkus wrote:

But he taught me that you cannot compare fighters from different eras. Too many variables. Your answers must come from the ring.
I buy into that reasoning.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I buy into that reasoning as well, too many variables, rules, conditions, etc.
However, I'd hate to be a heavyweight of any era that had to face a punisher like Dempsey in the ring.
Ali? Not a champion known for damaging his opposition.

Yes,Rick Absolutely. From what we all know about Jack Dempsey, certainly was most effective in the ring. Any losses by Jack were sufficient to say he lost to a better man that day. Even money(clarify-EQUAL) fighters bring on a great spectacular of an event, but upsets truely make a hell of a day or night. Can one really say that Oliver McCall was a better boxer than Tyson that night ?.Drugs or no drugs. Yes he was. But compare careers and what Tyson did in the ring with just about every opponent till King came in.
It's that kind of stuff that has us all guessing what the ending will be at the end of the any fight.The mighty upset. Klitschko vs Haye, Other Klitschko vs Adamek. On paper is one thing- In the ring is another. And they are contemporaries.
Whats most upsetting in this game-is the misjudging and reffing that can hurt a boxers performance that evening. Especially if its found to be intentional.


I too want to let it be known that I respect everybody's opinion here as well. Who am I to disagree with you if you feel Holmes can beat Dempsey.Or vica-versa. I notice half the forum subjects on Boxrec deals with such fictional match-ups. It is great to peruse them, like I do and read many as to see what many think are good/bad points on so many boxing greats. One thing-I wouldn't tangle with anyone of them !

[Cholo]

How about Fat Willie Meehan, Dempsey fought him four times and couldn't defeat him, do you think Muhammad Ali would have had trouble with Fat Willie?...

[Cholo]

Carter Beaten By Aragon,
LOS ANGELES, Aug. 29 World Champion Jimmy Carter of New York will take his slightly tarnished lightweight crown back east in few days, swearing he will never defend it in California."We were robbed once. Never again."
So spoke his manager, Willie Ketchum, in a bitter aftermath of Carter's loss in a 10-round fight last night to Art Aragon, of Los Angeles. Cocky Aragon grabbed the split decision before 10,400 fans who paid $47,833 gross to witness the non-title match.
Referee Abe Roth gave Aragon the decision by six points, Judge Mushy Callahan the local boy by eight, while Judge Joe Stone voted for the Champion by two points. The Associated Press scorecard coincided with Stone's.
The defeat, 10th in 69 fights for Carter, came as a suprise to many of the ringsiders who had installed him as the favorite.
Aragon caught fire when he saw blood streaming from Carter's left eyebrow as the eighth round got under way. It had been opened in the last minute of the previous round. Referee Roth said it was a clean left hook but Carter claimed he was butted.
In any event, Aragon turned tiger in the eighth and ninth and apparently caught the eye of the officials.

[kikibalt]

Carter Beaten By Aragon,
LOS ANGELES, Aug. 29 World Champion Jimmy Carter of New York will take his slightly tarnished lightweight crown back east in few days, swearing he will never defend it in California."We were robbed once. Never again."
So spoke his manager, Willie Ketchum, in a bitter aftermath of Carter's loss in a 10-round fight last night to Art Aragon, of Los Angeles. Cocky Aragon grabbed the split decision before 10,400 fans who paid $47,833 gross to witness the non-title match.
Referee Abe Roth gave Aragon the decision by six points, Judge Mushy Callahan the local boy by eight, while Judge Joe Stone voted for the Champion by two points. The Associated Press scorecard coincided with Stone's.
The defeat, 10th in 69 fights for Carter, came as a suprise to many of the ringsiders who had installed him as the favorite.
Aragon caught fire when he saw blood streaming from Carter's left eyebrow as the eighth round got under way. It had been opened in the last minute of the previous round. Referee Roth said it was a clean left hook but Carter claimed he was butted.
In any event, Aragon turned tiger in the eighth and ninth and apparently caught the eye of the officials.

I was there, I seen it live. It was a very close fight, could have gone either way, but I am glad it went to the Golden Boy....

[Cholo]

Carter Beaten By Aragon,
LOS ANGELES, Aug. 29 World Champion Jimmy Carter of New York will take his slightly tarnished lightweight crown back east in few days, swearing he will never defend it in California."We were robbed once. Never again."
So spoke his manager, Willie Ketchum, in a bitter aftermath of Carter's loss in a 10-round fight last night to Art Aragon, of Los Angeles. Cocky Aragon grabbed the split decision before 10,400 fans who paid $47,833 gross to witness the non-title match.
Referee Abe Roth gave Aragon the decision by six points, Judge Mushy Callahan the local boy by eight, while Judge Joe Stone voted for the Champion by two points. The Associated Press scorecard coincided with Stone's.
The defeat, 10th in 69 fights for Carter, came as a suprise to many of the ringsiders who had installed him as the favorite.
Aragon caught fire when he saw blood streaming from Carter's left eyebrow as the eighth round got under way. It had been opened in the last minute of the previous round. Referee Roth said it was a clean left hook but Carter claimed he was butted.
In any event, Aragon turned tiger in the eighth and ninth and apparently caught the eye of the officials.

I was there, I seen it live. It was a very close fight, could have gone either way, but I am glad it went to the Golden Boy....

Frank, Have you anymore photos of the "Golden Boy", i remember you saying you were at this fight, wish i'd been there. Hope your feeling better Frank..

[kikibalt]

Carter Beaten By Aragon,
LOS ANGELES, Aug. 29 World Champion Jimmy Carter of New York will take his slightly tarnished lightweight crown back east in few days, swearing he will never defend it in California."We were robbed once. Never again."
So spoke his manager, Willie Ketchum, in a bitter aftermath of Carter's loss in a 10-round fight last night to Art Aragon, of Los Angeles. Cocky Aragon grabbed the split decision before 10,400 fans who paid $47,833 gross to witness the non-title match.
Referee Abe Roth gave Aragon the decision by six points, Judge Mushy Callahan the local boy by eight, while Judge Joe Stone voted for the Champion by two points. The Associated Press scorecard coincided with Stone's.
The defeat, 10th in 69 fights for Carter, came as a suprise to many of the ringsiders who had installed him as the favorite.
Aragon caught fire when he saw blood streaming from Carter's left eyebrow as the eighth round got under way. It had been opened in the last minute of the previous round. Referee Roth said it was a clean left hook but Carter claimed he was butted.
In any event, Aragon turned tiger in the eighth and ninth and apparently caught the eye of the officials.

I was there, I seen it live. It was a very close fight, could have gone either way, but I am glad it went to the Golden Boy....

Frank, Have you anymore photos of the "Golden Boy", i remember you saying you were at this fight, wish i'd been there. Hope your feeling better Frank..

Paul, I might have more pictures of Aragon, but I would have to look for them. I been sick since I came back from my fishing trip with what I think is the flu.... , sure feels like it, haven't seen a doctor for it yet, I don't know what the hell am waiting for.... :x

[Cholo]

I was there, I seen it live. It was a very close fight, could have gone either way, but I am glad it went to the Golden Boy....

Frank, Have you anymore photos of the "Golden Boy", i remember you saying you were at this fight, wish i'd been there. Hope your feeling better Frank..

Paul, I might have more pictures of Aragon, but I would have to look for them. I been sick since I came back from my fishing trip with what I think is the flu.... , sure feels like it, haven't seen a doctor for it yet, I don't know what the hell am waiting for.... :x

Frank, The flu can leave you feeling groggy for weeks, i've been there, horrible stuff..

[kikibalt]

Johnnie Flores
Among The Valiant.....Raul Morin

Los Diablos Azules (The Blue Devils)

The 88th was another Infantry Division in the Italian front that included many of our men.
The was the first 'all-selectee' Division that was brought up to aid the battle-tested combat groups, who had been battling the Germans since back in Africa and Sicily, and comprised part of the 5th Army in Italy.
Their men were called "Los Soldados A Huevo" (soldiers by compulsion) by ribbing infantrymen of the other divisions who had doubting suspicions of their fighting ability. They quickly dispelled all doubts by their sterling performance on the battlefield, by the impressive record of their infantryman in the Italian campaign, they were calling them,"BlauTeufels" or the Blue Devils.

March 15, 1944-While fighting near Cassino with the 349th Infantry Regiment of the newly arrived 88th Division. Johnnie Flores, rifleman from Los Angeles, went out on a daylight patrol and heard a funny noise in a house two miles behind the German lines. Investigating, Flores burst in upon a Kraut officer writing a letter. Mustering all the courage he possessed, he harshly ordered the officer outside. He was astonished to have fourteen other Germans rush in from an adjoining room, meekly surrender, and join the party to be marched back to the American lines. He felt worse after he goose-stepped the supermen to a POW cage and then discovered that his rifle had been jammed all during the performance.

For this daring exploit, Flores was recommended for a Silver Star, but he never received it,Instead, he was court-martialled because of a run-in with one of the officers of his company.
The officer complained that Flores had laughed at him when he ordered him to put on his helmet while out on patrol. Flores contended it wasn't customary to wear a helmet in a night patrol since he was the lead scout, and furthermore, the officer "wasn't even on the patrol." He (Flores) could not resist telling the officer he did not agree, in no uncertain terms.

Many months later, Flores was awarded the Bronze Star for his "heroic acheivement" in volunteering to occupy a tower near the Arno River to observe German movements. The Germans spotted him, turned direct artillery on the observation post and reduced it to rubble. Flores received severe wounds on his back and neck. He was sent back to an Army hospital, then sent stateside and later honorably discharged.

[Rick Farris]

Johnnie Flores
Among The Valiant.....Raul Morin

Los Diablos Azules (The Blue Devils)

The 88th was another Infantry Division in the Italian front that included many of our men.
The was the first 'all-selectee' Division that was brought up to aid the battle-tested combat groups, who had been battling the Germans since back in Africa and Sicily, and comprised part of the 5th Army in Italy.
Their men were called "Los Soldados A Huevo" (soldiers by compulsion) by ribbing infantrymen of the other divisions who had doubting suspicions of their fighting ability. They quickly dispelled all doubts by their sterling performance on the battlefield, by the impressive record of their infantryman in the Italian campaign, they were calling them,"BlauTeufels" or the Blue Devils.

March 15, 1944-While fighting near Cassino with the 349th Infantry Regiment of the newly arrived 88th Division. Johnnie Flores, rifleman from Los Angeles, went out on a daylight patrol and heard a funny noise in a house two miles behind the German lines. Investigating, Flores burst in upon a Kraut officer writing a letter. Mustering all the courage he possessed, he harshly ordered the officer outside. He was astonished to have fourteen other Germans rush in from an adjoining room, meekly surrender, and join the party to be marched back to the American lines. He felt worse after he goose-stepped the supermen to a POW cage and then discovered that his rifle had been jammed all during the performance.

For this daring exploit, Flores was recommended for a Silver Star, but he never received it,Instead, he was court-martialled because of a run-in with one of the officers of his company.
The officer complained that Flores had laughed at him when he ordered him to put on his helmet while out on patrol. Flores contended it wasn't customary to wear a helmet in a night patrol since he was the lead scout, and furthermore, the officer "wasn't even on the patrol." He (Flores) could not resist telling the officer he did not agree, in no uncertain terms.

Many months later, Flores was awarded the Bronze Star for his "heroic acheivement" in volunteering to occupy a tower near the Arno River to observe German movements. The Germans spotted him, turned direct artillery on the observation post and reduced it to rubble. Flores received severe wounds on his back and neck. He was sent back to an Army hospital, then sent stateside and later honorably discharged.

Johnny Flores would receieve his Silver Star decades (in the 80's) after his capture of the Germans. After the capture, Johnny was sitting in his camp with other soldiers, telling of the experience. Johnny had taken off his helmet as he relived the day. A young officer, who had arrived at the camp a couple days earlier, ordered Flores to put his helmet on, although not engaged in combat. The officerspoke to Flores with no respect. Johnny told the officer where he could go, and the result was Flores was nearly court martialed. Johnny was permanently disabled from his wounds suffered in WW2. The men in Los Diablos Azules were all immigrants, mostly Latino with one Korean. They were sent on missions and were not expected to return, but always did. Flores orders were, "Go out and find a German soldier and bring him back here for interogation." Flores came back with 14, including several were officers.

[Rick Farris]

How about Fat Willie Meehan, Dempsey fought him four times and couldn't defeat him, do you think Muhammad Ali would have had trouble with Fat Willie?...

Well if he beat Dempsey, I guess he might have a chance? . Of course, I never saw Fat Willie in action.
I'll bring things a little more up to date. How do you think Ali would have done with Larry Holmes?
Holmes dominated Ali in sparring sessions. His jab was superior to Ali's, and Ali was lost facing Holmes style, just as he was against Ken Norton.
Ali is lucky Larry Holmes didn't come along at the same time as Frazier, etc. I'm not a fan of Holmes, but if styles make fights, Holmes would end Ali.
Against fighters his on size and age, Ali was average.
My opinion. Again, the legend of Muhammad Ali is greater than his ring ability.

[Rick Farris]

How about Fat Willie Meehan, Dempsey fought him four times and couldn't defeat him, do you think Muhammad Ali would have had trouble with Fat Willie?...

No, to be honest I can't see Ali losing to Wille Meehan. And I can't see Ali defeating Dempsey under the rules of Dempey's era.

[Cholo]

How about Fat Willie Meehan, Dempsey fought him four times and couldn't defeat him, do you think Muhammad Ali would have had trouble with Fat Willie?...

Well if he beat Dempsey, I guess he might have a chance? . Of course, I never saw Fat Willie in action.
I'll bring things a little more up to date. How do you think Ali would have done with Larry Holmes?
Holmes dominated Ali in sparring sessions. His jab was superior to Ali's, and Ali was lost facing Holmes style, just as he was against Ken Norton.
Ali is lucky Larry Holmes didn't come along at the same time as Frazier, etc. I'm not a fan of Holmes, but if styles make fights, Holmes would end Ali.
Against fighters his on size and age, Ali was average.
My opinion. Again, the legend of Muhammad Ali is greater than his ring ability.

Rick, I'll go with Ali, he always found a way to win, the 70's was a great time for the heavyeights. And maybe Ali was slipping, but he was still the standout fighter of the era..

[Rick Farris]

How about Fat Willie Meehan, Dempsey fought him four times and couldn't defeat him, do you think Muhammad Ali would have had trouble with Fat Willie?...

Well if he beat Dempsey, I guess he might have a chance? . Of course, I never saw Fat Willie in action.
I'll bring things a little more up to date. How do you think Ali would have done with Larry Holmes?
Holmes dominated Ali in sparring sessions. His jab was superior to Ali's, and Ali was lost facing Holmes style, just as he was against Ken Norton.
Ali is lucky Larry Holmes didn't come along at the same time as Frazier, etc. I'm not a fan of Holmes, but if styles make fights, Holmes would end Ali.
Against fighters his on size and age, Ali was average.
My opinion. Again, the legend of Muhammad Ali is greater than his ring ability.

Rick, I'll go with Ali, he always found a way to win, the 70's was a great time for the heavyeights. And maybe Ali was slipping, but he was still the standout fighter of the era..

You're right Paul, Ali always found a way to win, usually with the help of the officials.
I was happy to see him retire. Holmes never had the charactor of an Ali, but he was a better ring performer, probably the best heavyweight to hold the title since Marciano. I do not care for Larry Holmes' charactor, and I didn't find him as exciting as Foreman, Frazier, Quarry, etc. But I believe that if we could match Holmes at his best, vs. Frazier, Foreman and Ali at their best, I believe that he would beat them all over the distance of fifteen rounds. My opinion.