Tony "Doc" Doherty

[palooka]

Running is an excellent tool but some fighters cannot run if they have a bad knee or so on. You can develop fitness through just hard sparring, running is more of a weight loss tool imo. Its well known that david diaz who happened to be a very fit fighter, only used swimming in the lead up to his fights.

I have read somewhere that Mexican boxers tend to jog at a pretty steady pace as opposed to sprinting.

I would have imagined that rowing was an equally good way of developing the CV system; it is supposed to be a very tough discipline.

[palooka]

Hiya guys, I normally just read the forums but after reading this post decided to get let you know the real story.

Tony Doherty is one of the most talented kids I've worked with. Back at the start of 2010, Gavin Rees, Bradley Pryce and Tony Doherty decided it was time for a change and left Enzo to start afresh under me at Fight Academy Wales (Darren Wilson's gym). Tony and I were at the same amateur club under Tony Williams and then both under Brian Hughes in Manchester so we go back years, he is my friend and I'd never run him down but what a massive waste of talent!! I never talk about sparring outside of the gym but I've seen Tony make world champions look completely clueless in sparring. His problem is that I just don't think he wants to fight, I think his Dad Simon wants him to fight more than he does. I pulled him off a bill 10 days before he was due to fight back in December because he was 12 lbs overweight - he could have lost the weight but thats not the way I work. Unfortunately he has never been back to the gym since then. He is under a management contract with me and my door is always open if he can dedicate himself to the gym and his diet which he's never been able to do!

Tony is a very respectful lad and a brilliant fighter and there isn't a day that goes past when I don't wonder what he could have done with his God-given talent. He raced to 20-0 without ever training hard and never ever running! Breaks my heart :(

Isn't Tony Dohertys dad a big cheese in the bare knuckle bouts, a promoter or something similar?

I can imagine that there's a lot of pressure and fear of failing when your dad is a big name, it'd take the enjoyment right out of it for me. :(

[rhino222]

swimming and rowing can be as effective as running in terms of fitness. swimming in particular is well known as an excellent exercise that causes less 'pounding' than any other form. the resistance of the water is of equivelence to running while holding small weights.

i challenge anyone to prove to me that running is better than swimming for 'fitness'...

[Jeff Thomas]

Running is an excellent tool but some fighters cannot run if they have a bad knee or so on. You can develop fitness through just hard sparring, running is more of a weight loss tool imo. Its well known that david diaz who happened to be a very fit fighter, only used swimming in the lead up to his fights.

I have read somewhere that Mexican boxers tend to jog at a pretty steady pace as opposed to sprinting.

I would have imagined that rowing was an equally good way of developing the CV system; it is supposed to be a very tough discipline.

Jogging low pace will have certain responses as will sprinting. Rowing is a good full body method and many of the muscles used are identical to those used in boxing. Also they work in chain to develop force- just like boxing.

There's plenty of ways to get 'fit' without running. Depends what you consider 'fit' to be.

Running certainly has a place but it's not at all the only means to optimise your fitness, nor is it as Des says the 'best' way.

Either that or my tutprs and the scientists they observe are wrong.

[Jeff Thomas]

swimming and rowing can be as effective as running in terms of fitness. swimming in particular is well known as an excellent exercise that causes less 'pounding' than any other form. the resistance of the water is of equivelence to running while holding small weights.i challenge anyone to prove to me that running is better than swimming for 'fitness'...

Agree with some of your post but not the bold part. Gravity and inertia are two different things.

[rhino222]

so come on arnie!! .... look outside the box mate!! ...

[palooka]

swimming and rowing can be as effective as running in terms of fitness. swimming in particular is well known as an excellent exercise that causes less 'pounding' than any other form. the resistance of the water is of equivelence to running while holding small weights.

i challenge anyone to prove to me that running is better than swimming for 'fitness'...

I always had the notion that running was an aerobic exercise and swimming an anaerobic.

[Jeff Thomas]

swimming and rowing can be as effective as running in terms of fitness. swimming in particular is well known as an excellent exercise that causes less 'pounding' than any other form. the resistance of the water is of equivelence to running while holding small weights.

i challenge anyone to prove to me that running is better than swimming for 'fitness'...

I always had the notion that running was an aerobic exercise and swimming and anaerobic.

Not at all aerobic means muscle contraction in the presence of oxygen and anerobic means without it. So both activities can be conducted under both conditions dependant on intensity- which is the KEY.

[Jeff Thomas]

swimming and rowing can be as effective as running in terms of fitness. swimming in particular is well known as an excellent exercise that causes less 'pounding' than any other form. the resistance of the water is of equivelence to running while holding small weights.

i challenge anyone to prove to me that running is better than swimming for 'fitness'...

Whose fitter

A marathon runner

or

A cross country skier?

[palooka]

swimming and rowing can be as effective as running in terms of fitness. swimming in particular is well known as an excellent exercise that causes less 'pounding' than any other form. the resistance of the water is of equivelence to running while holding small weights.

i challenge anyone to prove to me that running is better than swimming for 'fitness'...

I always had the notion that running was an aerobic exercise and swimming and anaerobic.

Not at all aerobic means muscle contraction in the presence of oxygen and anerobic means without it. So both activities can be conducted under both conditions dependant on intensity- which is the KEY.

I stand corrected on a notion that I have held for many years

[Gray-Fox]

MachoMan and Deserter, are you industry people?

[Jeff Thomas]

I always had the notion that running was an aerobic exercise and swimming and anaerobic.

Not at all aerobic means muscle contraction in the presence of oxygen and anerobic means without it. So both activities can be conducted under both conditions dependant on intensity- which is the KEY.

I stand corrected on a notion that I have held for many years

glad to help buddy- its confusing

[Coco]

Wasn't Miguel Matthews a life long smoker as well Marc?

No mate, he has never touched a fag, perhaps you are thinking of Des Gargano

[Deserter]

MachoMan and Deserter, are you industry people?

Industry as in boxing mate? If so, no.

[Des1]

Define fitness-

And it's not a fact. Fact.

Jeff, it is a fact. I'm not saying that you cant get fit without running because you can but by adding running (not plodding) to your training routine will make you considerably fitter especially by doing hill and interval runs. As I've said and is a proven fact, running increases your lung capacity as well being the most efficient way of building fitness.

Wanking can also build your lung capacity. Fact.

Who says running is the most efficient way to build fitness. Cite me an expert who says that Des.

Also what adaption specific to running makes it more effective a training method then any other exercise?

No Jeff, thats not a fact at all. W*nking doesn't build lung capacity. Anyway, moving on, if you take note of what I've said I didn't say that you can't get fit without running because of course you can but adding running to your training regime will make you considerably fitter. Running is one of the most if not the most efficient way to build fitness. You ask what 'expert' says this. Who would you define as an expert on the matter? Respected boxing trainers? Respected boxers themselves? Running has, is and always will be an important part of a boxers conditioning and yes some may not do it and are fit but they would be a whole lot fitter if they did run. Personal experience has also shown me this time and time again

[Des1]

i agree you need to run i do 1 long run a week and then during the week i do a lot of 200m 400m 800m with rest inbetween depending on where i am in my training depends how many i do and how long rest i have running also helps with the mental side of the sport if you go into the ring knowing you have put the miles in it gives you that mental toughness and ive had 6 operations on my knee so people using the excuse that its bad for your knees thats rubbish some people dont like running for 1 reason its hard and some boxers dont like hard graft believe it or not

Jeff, did you read this post. Coming from a boxer and ex footballer? Would you define this as an expert opinion?

[TerribleTerry]

Wasn't Miguel Matthews a life long smoker as well Marc?

No mate, he has never touched a fag, perhaps you are thinking of Des Gargano

Yeah I think I am getting them mixed up

[Darcy Delaney]

Running is an excellent tool but some fighters cannot run if they have a bad knee or so on. You can develop fitness through just hard sparring, running is more of a weight loss tool imo. Its well known that david diaz who happened to be a very fit fighter, only used swimming in the lead up to his fights.

I have read somewhere that Mexican boxers tend to jog at a pretty steady pace as opposed to sprinting.

I would have imagined that rowing was an equally good way of developing the CV system; it is supposed to be a very tough discipline.

steve collins never run he used to do all his training in the gym

[Jeff Thomas]

i agree you need to run i do 1 long run a week and then during the week i do a lot of 200m 400m 800m with rest inbetween depending on where i am in my training depends how many i do and how long rest i have running also helps with the mental side of the sport if you go into the ring knowing you have put the miles in it gives you that mental toughness and ive had 6 operations on my knee so people using the excuse that its bad for your knees thats rubbish some people dont like running for 1 reason its hard and some boxers dont like hard graft believe it or not

Jeff, did you read this post. Coming from a boxer and ex footballer? Would you define this as an expert opinion?

Yes I read it, and as per my post I'm not arguing that running is a method. It's not the only method, nor is it the best method as you're implying. Interval running is great- I do it, but its not the be all and end all of conditioning.

[Des1]

i agree you need to run i do 1 long run a week and then during the week i do a lot of 200m 400m 800m with rest inbetween depending on where i am in my training depends how many i do and how long rest i have running also helps with the mental side of the sport if you go into the ring knowing you have put the miles in it gives you that mental toughness and ive had 6 operations on my knee so people using the excuse that its bad for your knees thats rubbish some people dont like running for 1 reason its hard and some boxers dont like hard graft believe it or not

Jeff, did you read this post. Coming from a boxer and ex footballer? Would you define this as an expert opinion?

Yes I read it, and as per my post I'm not arguing that running is a method. It's not the only method, nor is it the best method as you're implying. Interval running is great- I do it, but its not the be all and end all of conditioning.

Oh I must have missed something, your the expert...

[Jeff Thomas]

Rowing is a good full body method and many of the muscles used are identical to those used in boxing.

There is minimal recruitment of the triceps and pectoralis in rowing, unlike boxing. There is no trunk rotation in rowing, unlike boxing. Rowing is non-weight-bearing, unlike boxing. I therefore disagree with you, Jeff, that many of the muscles used are identical to those used in boxing. Yes rowing is an outstanding means of improving both your anaerobic and aerobic systems but it is not something I'd recommend to boxers over running. The same goes for swimming.

A few people have said on here that alternatives to running should be looked at because running puts stress on your joints (and similar statements). So what? Stress is good, you need to stress your body to improve it - within reason. Boxing is a weight-bearing sport, you carry your mass. You don't sit on something, or float in the water, do you? A lot of sportsman are mistaken in their belief that they are making relevant fitness improvements, when they are in fact doing the completely wrong sort of cross training. You can take up a swimming or rowing programme and notice, over time, that you can maintain a faster pace at a heart rate you previously were unable to do. You also notice that your recovery is faster from such work. You are therefore fitter. Fact.

However, there's a problem. Your gains in fitness have been achieved in a non-weight-bearing activity. Yes your cardiovascular system is fitter but the benefits are not as transferable to your sport, boxing, as they would be if you'd utilised a weight-bearing activity, such as running.

The purpose of your training should always be to specifically benefit your chosen sport. If your sport is weight-bearing, the vast majority of your conditioning work should also be weight-bearing. When focussing on aerobic work, you should be aiming to get your systems more effective at getting oxygenated blood to the areas of your body that need it. If you row, cycle or swim, your body will get very good at delivering oxygenated blood to the areas of your body that are working when you are sat down pedalling, rowing or floating in the water. If you run, your body will get more efficient at supplying oxygenated blood to the parts of your body that need it when you are carrying your own weight. The same applies to anaerobic work.

Additionally all the component parts of your body that contribute to you being able to operate when you're standing up i.e. ligaments, tendons, bones, muscles, etc etc will adapt to the stresses placed upon them and enable you to become a more physically capable sportsman.

I'm not saying there is no place for non-weight-bearing activity in a boxer's regimen, but I do believe it should be limited in favour of weight-bearing stuff.

I also appreciate that some people are bound to cite examples of fighters who have relied heavily on non-weight-bearing activity for their fitness work.

Great post mate, as always.

There is no recruitment of the pectorals when running, there is very little trunk rotation when running. So the greatest argument you have that running is more suitable is regarding it being weight bearing activity. A pretty flimsy argument buddy as there is very little evidence to suggest that weight bearing exercise is superior to working against a resistance other then gravity.

How often is the running action completed in a boxing ring. Granted Malinaggi might spend a lot of time on the back foot but he never 'runs' forward does he? So in terms of relatedness surely running is every bit as inappropritate as swimming, rowing, or utilising a cross trainer?

I dispute also that improvement to CV performance is not transferable as a result of working under non weight bearing activity, thats a ridiculous statementone that I have disproven hundreds of times.... Unless i'm interpretating what your saying incorrectly- so please expand..

Overall whilst I concede you clearly know your stuff I don't agree with much of your interpretation of physiology; I'm no expert myself as we've established but I think your arguments a pretty rigid and short sighted one.

What do you do for work Machoman? PM me- your posts are continually excellent and i'm not trying to make an argument of nothing - its a good debate and I look forward to your reply.

[Jeff Thomas]

Jeff, did you read this post. Coming from a boxer and ex footballer? Would you define this as an expert opinion?

Yes I read it, and as per my post I'm not arguing that running is a method. It's not the only method, nor is it the best method as you're implying. Interval running is great- I do it, but its not the be all and end all of conditioning.

Oh I must have missed something, your the expert...

My 7 year old gets sarcastic when he gets thing wrong too.

[black panther]

This thread has led to an interesting debate. In my humble opinion running is one of the best exercises not only physically but mentally. That's one reason why it's so beneficial. It's hard to keep going when your gasping and your legs are burning. Also, the discipline required to drag your ass out of bed at an ungodly hour is part of it as well.

Right now I'm helping my mate(fat bastard ) get into shape and shift some pounds. When we first started about a month ago he couldn't run at 10km/hr on the treadmill for more than 2 minutes without having to stop. Now he's at ten minutes but he's always trying to avoid running. To be honest he could a lot fitter than than that if he was more dedicated but he keeps skipping sessions and always tries to avoid the running. Why? Because it's more demanding than other exercises and it's easy to keep track of progress/measure (so I can tell when he's slacking). Call it a basic outlook but for me the harder you find something (exercise wise) the better it is for you.

Stamina/aerobic fitness wise I've never been fitter than when I ran a half marathon last year. At the end I wasn't even out of breath and when I saw my mate at the finish line he said I looked fresh!(A closer look would reveal large deposits of salt on my face from all the sweat!). The only thing that kept me from a better time was my legs; they were battered! For me, as Arnie said, if you want stamina, you gotta run!

[Gray-Fox]

Too many essays in here, I'd like to take part. I'd like to think I know a fair bit about boxing training (I know a lot actually), and in my years of knowledge acquisition, I've learnt one key tenet: Everybody trains according to their needs. We can't blanketly say that running is good or bad. One thing I do know is that most top class fighters would rather train knowing that they do run, rather than have not done so.

[Jeff Thomas]

There is minimal recruitment of the triceps and pectoralis in rowing, unlike boxing. There is no trunk rotation in rowing, unlike boxing. Rowing is non-weight-bearing, unlike boxing. I therefore disagree with you, Jeff, that many of the muscles used are identical to those used in boxing. Yes rowing is an outstanding means of improving both your anaerobic and aerobic systems but it is not something I'd recommend to boxers over running. The same goes for swimming.

A few people have said on here that alternatives to running should be looked at because running puts stress on your joints (and similar statements). So what? Stress is good, you need to stress your body to improve it - within reason. Boxing is a weight-bearing sport, you carry your mass. You don't sit on something, or float in the water, do you? A lot of sportsman are mistaken in their belief that they are making relevant fitness improvements, when they are in fact doing the completely wrong sort of cross training. You can take up a swimming or rowing programme and notice, over time, that you can maintain a faster pace at a heart rate you previously were unable to do. You also notice that your recovery is faster from such work. You are therefore fitter. Fact.

However, there's a problem. Your gains in fitness have been achieved in a non-weight-bearing activity. Yes your cardiovascular system is fitter but the benefits are not as transferable to your sport, boxing, as they would be if you'd utilised a weight-bearing activity, such as running.

The purpose of your training should always be to specifically benefit your chosen sport. If your sport is weight-bearing, the vast majority of your conditioning work should also be weight-bearing. When focussing on aerobic work, you should be aiming to get your systems more effective at getting oxygenated blood to the areas of your body that need it. If you row, cycle or swim, your body will get very good at delivering oxygenated blood to the areas of your body that are working when you are sat down pedalling, rowing or floating in the water. If you run, your body will get more efficient at supplying oxygenated blood to the parts of your body that need it when you are carrying your own weight. The same applies to anaerobic work.

Additionally all the component parts of your body that contribute to you being able to operate when you're standing up i.e. ligaments, tendons, bones, muscles, etc etc will adapt to the stresses placed upon them and enable you to become a more physically capable sportsman.

I'm not saying there is no place for non-weight-bearing activity in a boxer's regimen, but I do believe it should be limited in favour of weight-bearing stuff.

I also appreciate that some people are bound to cite examples of fighters who have relied heavily on non-weight-bearing activity for their fitness work.

Great post mate, as always.

There is no recruitment of the pectorals when running, there is very little trunk rotation when running. So the greatest argument you have that running is more suitable is regarding it being weight bearing activity. A pretty flimsy argument buddy as there is very little evidence to suggest that weight bearing exercise is superior to working against a resistance other then gravity.

How often is the running action completed in a boxing ring. Granted Malinaggi might spend a lot of time on the back foot but he never 'runs' forward does he? So in terms of relatedness surely running is every bit as inappropritate as swimming, rowing, or utilising a cross trainer?

I dispute also that improvement to CV performance is not transferable as a result of working under non weight bearing activity, thats a ridiculous statementone that I have disproven hundreds of times.... Unless i'm interpretating what your saying incorrectly- so please expand..

Overall whilst I concede you clearly know your stuff I don't agree with much of your interpretation of physiology; I'm no expert myself as we've established but I think your arguments a pretty rigid and short sighted one.

Jeff, my arguments are anything but rigid and short-sighted, on the contrary. In fact, one of the greatest frustrations I have with athletes is their tendancy to adopt a polar position and stick to it to the death. if you re-read my post, you will notice I am not talking in absolutes at all.

You stated that rowing utilises many of the same muscles as boxing. I explained that it doesn't. I didn't mention running in relation to that point.

On the main issue: weight-bearing versus non-weight-bearing.

Firstly, I did not claim that the cardiovascular benefits of non-weight-bearing activity are not transferable to boxing; they are. However, all else being equal (duration, intensity etc), the overall transferable benefits are less pronounced than those derived from weight-bearing:weight-bearing activity.

I agree with you that the running action is rarely used in the boxing ring (nor is the action of rowing, swimming or the cross trainer). That's not the salient point. Beyond the benefits to the respiratory and cardiovascular systems, running enhances the body's ability to cope with carrying the human mass for protracted periods of time when under stress. The manner in which running effects the skeletal, muscular, endocrine and neural systems have exceptional crossover benefits to boxing moreso than non-weight-bearing activity -- and by weight-bearing I mean the human mass, in this instance.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that non-weight-bearing activity is useless. Of course I'm not. Any athlete is limited to a certain number of hours training per day, week, month, year. It is important that you get the most bang for your buck.

Lastly, always bear in mind is that a lot of information put out related to training has a commercial bias to it. You can't make a lot of money out of telling people to get out on the roads running. Always make an effort to ask yourself 'what has this person got to gain by telling me this?'.

Cheers for the reply mate will have a proper read after Britains got talent.... I mean boxing