Tony "Doc" Doherty

[Des1]

Rowing is a good full body method and many of the muscles used are identical to those used in boxing.

There is minimal recruitment of the triceps and pectoralis in rowing, unlike boxing. There is no trunk rotation in rowing, unlike boxing. Rowing is non-weight-bearing, unlike boxing. I therefore disagree with you, Jeff, that many of the muscles used are identical to those used in boxing. Yes rowing is an outstanding means of improving both your anaerobic and aerobic systems but it is not something I'd recommend to boxers over running. The same goes for swimming.

A few people have said on here that alternatives to running should be looked at because running puts stress on your joints (and similar statements). So what? Stress is good, you need to stress your body to improve it - within reason. Boxing is a weight-bearing sport, you carry your mass. You don't sit on something, or float in the water, do you? A lot of sportsman are mistaken in their belief that they are making relevant fitness improvements, when they are in fact doing the completely wrong sort of cross training. You can take up a swimming or rowing programme and notice, over time, that you can maintain a faster pace at a heart rate you previously were unable to do. You also notice that your recovery is faster from such work. You are therefore fitter. Fact.

However, there's a problem. Your gains in fitness have been achieved in a non-weight-bearing activity. Yes your cardiovascular system is fitter but the benefits are not as transferable to your sport, boxing, as they would be if you'd utilised a weight-bearing activity, such as running.

The purpose of your training should always be to specifically benefit your chosen sport. If your sport is weight-bearing, the vast majority of your conditioning work should also be weight-bearing. When focussing on aerobic work, you should be aiming to get your systems more effective at getting oxygenated blood to the areas of your body that need it. If you row, cycle or swim, your body will get very good at delivering oxygenated blood to the areas of your body that are working when you are sat down pedalling, rowing or floating in the water. If you run, your body will get more efficient at supplying oxygenated blood to the parts of your body that need it when you are carrying your own weight. The same applies to anaerobic work.

Additionally all the component parts of your body that contribute to you being able to operate when you're standing up i.e. ligaments, tendons, bones, muscles, etc etc will adapt to the stresses placed upon them and enable you to become a more physically capable sportsman.

I'm not saying there is no place for non-weight-bearing activity in a boxer's regimen, but I do believe it should be limited in favour of weight-bearing stuff.

I also appreciate that some people are bound to cite examples of fighters who have relied heavily on non-weight-bearing activity for their fitness work.

Good insight MachoMan09

[Des1]

This thread has led to an interesting debate. In my humble opinion running is one of the best exercises not only physically but mentally. That's one reason why it's so beneficial. It's hard to keep going when your gasping and your legs are burning. Also, the discipline required to drag your ass out of bed at an ungodly hour is part of it as well.

Right now I'm helping my mate(fat bastard ) get into shape and shift some pounds. When we first started about a month ago he couldn't run at 10km/hr on the treadmill for more than 2 minutes without having to stop. Now he's at ten minutes but he's always trying to avoid running. To be honest he could a lot fitter than than that if he was more dedicated but he keeps skipping sessions and always tries to avoid the running. Why? Because it's more demanding than other exercises and it's easy to keep track of progress/measure (so I can tell when he's slacking). Call it a basic outlook but for me the harder you find something (exercise wise) the better it is for you.

Stamina/aerobic fitness wise I've never been fitter than when I ran a half marathon last year. At the end I wasn't even out of breath and when I saw my mate at the finish line he said I looked fresh!(A closer look would reveal large deposits of salt on my face from all the sweat!). The only thing that kept me from a better time was my legs; they were battered! For me, as Arnie said, if you want stamina, you gotta run!

Good point, some should take note.......

[Des1]

Yes I read it, and as per my post I'm not arguing that running is a method. It's not the only method, nor is it the best method as you're implying. Interval running is great- I do it, but its not the be all and end all of conditioning.

Oh I must have missed something, your the expert...

My 7 year old gets sarcastic when he gets thing wrong too.

Oh, I dont get sarcastic when I get something wrong, only when someone can't accept they're wrong and act like a child. You mention that running doesn't use rotation movements like boxing? What and rowing does?! If you run hard Jeff and not a timid plod you will find that your shoulders make a rotation movement...More so than rowing or cycling at least.

[kamicazze]

is des1 a pro?

[manno]

This has developed into a great topic and i have found some of the comments very insightful. These sort of debates come up now and again but other than nutrition and the(now largely) dispelled myth that 'weights are no good for ya', the core training and conditioning of a fighter remains the same as the fighters of any era over the last 100 yrs- sparring,running,groundwork and bagwork/pads. I accept that hill/sprints have probably come into it more over the last few years but the fundamentals remain the same and imo if you dont stick to the basics( nothing wrong in expanding them) you will eventually get caught out. How many times have you seen as boxer look a million dollars,timing spot on etc only to see them fade badly down the stretch and afterwards reveal they hadn't run for this fight- this happens right from teenage novice ams to seasoned pros, stepping in at late notice.Great debate!

[Jeff Thomas]

Oh I must have missed something, your the expert...

My 7 year old gets sarcastic when he gets thing wrong too.

Oh, I dont get sarcastic when I get something wrong, only when someone can't accept they're wrong and act like a child. You mention that running doesn't use rotation movements like boxing? What and rowing does?! If you run hard Jeff and not a timid plod you will find that your shoulders make a rotation movement...More so than rowing or cycling at least.

Des if you actually understood my posts or anything about fitness you'd realise the points I'm trying to make. Not being childish at all. I'm not arguing with you any further about this at this risk of sounding a twat. My best advice to you would be to get a decent book about strength and conditioning and read it. Then you might actually have some grasp of the points I'm trying to make- regurgitating what someone else has written in an attempt to validate what you originally wrote is embarrassing.

I'm not sure that you even understand the point I was making; let me say it one more time...

Running is not the only way to get fit

There are other methods which could be conceived as being more suitable

Fitness has many definitions

I run nearly everyday

Hope this clears things up for you- you've come across as a right w@nker there!

[Jeff Thomas]

Macho man won't copy and paste to avoid clutter;

I think the dispute we had perhaps arose from my shitty reading skills as much as anything. I think my original point has become confused as a result of the rowing statement I made. I still contend that the rower uses many of the muscles used in boxing but I can see the point your making with regards to carrying the weight of the body...

As I've reiterated to my pal des above I'm not arguing against running my point was - it's not the only method and nor is it the best.

I have found from experience that a well constructed circuit can allow me to reach the levels of fatigue and stress that I desire. For example a round (3 mins) comprising of 30 sec split jumps, 30 sec jumping jacks and 30 sec burpees repeated twice. Repeated for a set number of rounds, with a set rest period is as effective as an interval run and more challenging for the upper body. I can attend to rotation elsewhere in my program.

Thoughts?

[Gray-Fox]

Everybody trains according to their needs. We can't blanketly say that running is good or bad.

+

Circuits as well as running is desirable.

[black panther]

I have found from experience that a well constructed circuit can allow me to reach the levels of fatigue and stress that I desire. For example a round (3 mins) comprising of 30 sec split jumps, 30 sec jumping jacks and 30 sec burpees repeated twice. Repeated for a set number of rounds, with a set rest period is as effective as an interval run and more challenging for the upper body. I can attend to rotation elsewhere in my program.

Thoughts?

I don't disagree with that. All good (weight-bearing) work.

But don't you think a continuous run would be more beneficial for increasing lung capacity? I suppose you could do circuits without a break but that would be awfully hard I would imagine.

[Des1]

My 7 year old gets sarcastic when he gets thing wrong too.

Oh, I dont get sarcastic when I get something wrong, only when someone can't accept they're wrong and act like a child. You mention that running doesn't use rotation movements like boxing? What and rowing does?! If you run hard Jeff and not a timid plod you will find that your shoulders make a rotation movement...More so than rowing or cycling at least.

Des if you actually understood my posts or anything about fitness you'd realise the points I'm trying to make. Not being childish at all. I'm not arguing with you any further about this at this risk of sounding a twat. My best advice to you would be to get a decent book about strength and conditioning and read it. Then you might actually have some grasp of the points I'm trying to make- regurgitating what someone else has written in an attempt to validate what you originally wrote is embarrassing.

I'm not sure that you even understand the point I was making; let me say it one more time...

Running is not the only way to get fit

There are other methods which could be conceived as being more suitable

Fitness has many definitions

I run nearly everyday

Hope this clears things up for you- you've come across as a right w@nker there!

Oh dear Jeff, please dont try to back track by trying to imply I meant or said something different. If you go back and actually take note of my comment I said "Sure there are other ways to get fit" and "Running is not the only way to get fit". what I did say was "Running is the best way to get fit"...Meaning the most economical and simplest way to get fit being as well that there are different methods of running. I also said that anyone who includes running to whatever fitness regime they have, they will be considerably fitter. These points are obvious. In expanding the lungs running is at the top of the list. You go from saying that running can have a more negative effect than a positive one ( ) to saying that you do infact run yourself nearly everyday . Do you want to have more of a negative effect now on your body ?

Yes, it has cleared things up for me in that it shows that you are actually now back tracking. Why do you run if as you say you dont need to run to get fit? .....Oh wait a minute, I suppose you enjoy running, thats the reason, yes you enjoy putting your body through negative effects as you clearly state running can have on your body .... So no Jeff, if anyone has come across as a right w*nker here its you.

[Jeff Thomas]

Oh dear Jeff, please dont try to back track by trying to imply I meant or said something different. If you go back and actually take note of my comment I said "Sure there are other ways to get fit" and "Running is not the only way to get fit". what I did say was "Running is the best way to get fit"...Meaning the most economical and simplest way to get fit being as well that there are different methods of running.

sure you meant that


I also said that anyone who includes running to whatever fitness regime they have, they will be considerably fitter.shite and further evidence that you don't know the definition of fitness

These points are obvious. In expanding the lungs running is at the top of the list. expanding the lungs?!!!



You go from saying that running can have a more negative effect than a positive one ( ) It can, if your legs are fatigued everyday from running you will be less responsive in the gym, move less and thus become less mobile in the ring, also the strains of continuous running on the joints effects many people I know many boxers with knee problemsto saying that you do infact run yourself nearly everyday . Do you want to have more of a negative effect now on your body ? I run nearly everyday but intelligently with subsequent workouts in mind - I do occasionally overdo it but that's the price you pay sometimes I'd probably be just as fit for boxing with less running

Yes, it has cleared things up for me in that it shows that you are actually now back tracking. Why do you run if as you say you dont need to run to get fit? .....Oh wait a minute, I suppose you enjoy running, thats the reason, yes you enjoy putting your body through negative effects as you clearly state running can have on your body .... So no Jeff, if anyone has come across as a right w*nker here its you. Yes I enjoy running and I enjoy trying to get the most out of my body- do you know the difference between CAN and WILL, I may come across as a right wanker but that's because your clearly borderline illiterate and can't read or understand what is written in front of you.

Have a good day

[Gazmac81]

Right Jeff hows the training going for your fight

Plenty of running miles in the bank

your fingers getting plenty work out on here anyway

[Jeff Thomas]

Right Jeff hows the training going for your fight

Plenty of running miles in the bank

your fingers getting plenty work out on here anyway

Ha ha yes!

I've got shin splints in my fingers-

This running thing is doing my nut in now- I run nearly every day, let's get it right

[Jeff Thomas]

Listen DES let's compare 10k times I bet I kick your ass

[Gazmac81]

you down at prizefighter Tues or watching on the box?

Right Jeff hows the training going for your fight

Plenty of running miles in the bank

your fingers getting plenty work out on here anyway

Ha ha yes!

I've got shin splints in my fingers-

This running thing is doing my nut in now- I run nearly every day, let's get it right

[Jeff Thomas]

Prob on the box Gaz how's kevins training gone?

[Des1]

Oh dear Jeff, please dont try to back track by trying to imply I meant or said something different. If you go back and actually take note of my comment I said "Sure there are other ways to get fit" and "Running is not the only way to get fit". what I did say was "Running is the best way to get fit"...Meaning the most economical and simplest way to get fit being as well that there are different methods of running.

sure you meant that


I also said that anyone who includes running to whatever fitness regime they have, they will be considerably fitter.shite and further evidence that you don't know the definition of fitness

These points are obvious. In expanding the lungs running is at the top of the list. expanding the lungs?!!!



You go from saying that running can have a more negative effect than a positive one ( ) It can, if your legs are fatigued everyday from running you will be less responsive in the gym, move less and thus become less mobile in the ring, also the strains of continuous running on the joints effects many people I know many boxers with knee problemsto saying that you do infact run yourself nearly everyday . Do you want to have more of a negative effect now on your body ? I run nearly everyday but intelligently with subsequent workouts in mind - I do occasionally overdo it but that's the price you pay sometimes I'd probably be just as fit for boxing with less running

Yes, it has cleared things up for me in that it shows that you are actually now back tracking. Why do you run if as you say you dont need to run to get fit? .....Oh wait a minute, I suppose you enjoy running, thats the reason, yes you enjoy putting your body through negative effects as you clearly state running can have on your body .... So no Jeff, if anyone has come across as a right w*nker here its you. Yes I enjoy running and I enjoy trying to get the most out of my body- do you know the difference between CAN and WILL, I may come across as a right wanker but that's because your clearly borderline illiterate and can't read or understand what is written in front of you.

Have a good day

Your 1st point - Yes, I mean't that because I mean what I say and I said it....

Your 2nd point - No, its not shite and and shows no 'evidence' I do know very much the definition of fitness. Remember, thats your opinion...It's not fact...Or 'shite'

Your 3rd point - Yes, running is the most efficient way in expanding your lungs, never heard of the expression 'expanding the lungs'? Oh thats way its funny to you, I see :)

Your 4th point - "If your legs are fatigued every day from running" . Are you having a laugh? Many boxers run every day or have just one day off from running. Having the mentality of Oooh best not do too much as I might fatigue my muscles is the problem with some. Guess what Jeff, the training of this sport aint meant to be easy . You rest when your sleeping. You can never over train..... but you can under rest. If you get enough rest there is no excuse for getting fatigued.

Your 5th point - Your now saying you would 'probably' just as fit if you ran 'less'. This discussion wasn't about 'how much we should run' it was if whether boxers should run or not and you basically have said boxers do not need to run. But by you stating you'd 'probably' be just as fit if you ran less shows me you still have a doubt there, your not quite sure are you Jeff? Or else you would be adamant that you would be just as fit without running...Not 'probably'. Its Ok though to suffer a little confusion. I'm here to help if your in doubt about anything

[Jeff Thomas]

Oh dear Jeff, please dont try to back track by trying to imply I meant or said something different. If you go back and actually take note of my comment I said "Sure there are other ways to get fit" and "Running is not the only way to get fit". what I did say was "Running is the best way to get fit"...Meaning the most economical and simplest way to get fit being as well that there are different methods of running.

sure you meant that


I also said that anyone who includes running to whatever fitness regime they have, they will be considerably fitter.shite and further evidence that you don't know the definition of fitness

These points are obvious. In expanding the lungs running is at the top of the list. expanding the lungs?!!!



You go from saying that running can have a more negative effect than a positive one ( ) It can, if your legs are fatigued everyday from running you will be less responsive in the gym, move less and thus become less mobile in the ring, also the strains of continuous running on the joints effects many people I know many boxers with knee problemsto saying that you do infact run yourself nearly everyday . Do you want to have more of a negative effect now on your body ? I run nearly everyday but intelligently with subsequent workouts in mind - I do occasionally overdo it but that's the price you pay sometimes I'd probably be just as fit for boxing with less running

Yes, it has cleared things up for me in that it shows that you are actually now back tracking. Why do you run if as you say you dont need to run to get fit? .....Oh wait a minute, I suppose you enjoy running, thats the reason, yes you enjoy putting your body through negative effects as you clearly state running can have on your body .... So no Jeff, if anyone has come across as a right w*nker here its you. Yes I enjoy running and I enjoy trying to get the most out of my body- do you know the difference between CAN and WILL, I may come across as a right wanker but that's because your clearly borderline illiterate and can't read or understand what is written in front of you.

Have a good day

Your 1st point - Yes, I mean't that because I mean what I say and I said it....

Your 2nd point - No, its not shite and and shows no 'evidence' I do know very much the definition of fitness. Remember, thats your opinion...It's not fact...Or 'shite'

Your 3rd point - Yes, running is the most efficient way in expanding your lungs, never heard of the expression 'expanding the lungs'? Oh thats way its funny to you, I see :)

Your 4th point - "If your legs are fatigued every day from running" . Are you having a laugh? Many boxers run every day or have just one day off from running. Having the mentality of Oooh best not do too much as I might fatigue my muscles is the problem with some. Guess what Jeff, the training of this sport aint meant to be easy . You rest when your sleeping. You can never over train..... but you can under rest. If you get enough rest there is no excuse for getting fatigued.

Your 5th point - Your now saying you would 'probably' just as fit if you ran 'less'. This discussion wasn't about 'how much we should run' it was if whether boxers should run or not and you basically have said boxers do not need to run. But by you stating you'd 'probably' be just as fit if you ran less shows me you still have a doubt there, your not quite sure are you Jeff? Or else you would be adamant that you would be just as fit without running...Not 'probably'. Its Ok though to suffer a little confusion. I'm here to help if your in doubt about anything

Your retorrents are abysmal- really terrible

But please define fitness for me- I've asked you a couple of times now!

[Lenny]

I like Des1, he only appears every now and then but always seems to get involved in a row with somebody

[Gazmac81]

Brilliant im told , hardy saw him though which is a good sign , hes managed to get time off his work with sponsor so that certianly helps , meant to be really sharp in sparring

he was down yesterday done check weigh in and was on target so looking good

think the build up starts tomorrow on ringside i would imagine

Prob on the box Gaz how's kevins training gone?

[Jeff Thomas]

DES1

I'm just going to summarise what you've put in this thread. Mainly for comedy purposes.

Despite not knowing what 'fit' means, you say that running is the best and most efficient way to get 'fit'.

You think that lung expansion is the common and correct terminology for lung capacity and that running is the 'best' way to do it.

A professional boxer or footballer is certain to be an expert in anatomy & physiology.

Its impossible to overtrain.

You should get enough rest, but only so long as it doesn't strech to over 24 hours because most boxers run everyday or have one day off from running.


Let me help you desmond. Fitness is extremely difficult to define and perhaps the best way to put it would be suitably adapted. In such that a marathon runner is fit to run marathons and a boxer is fit to box.A swimmer is fit to swim and so on. I think your a little confused in that you think that everybody in the world is trying to increase there lung capacity. Are body builders not fit? Are power lifters not fit? Are golfers not fit?

Your knowlege is limited at best and piggybacking on Machomans posts having no weight to support your own non-arguments demonstrates this. Over-training syndrome is common amongst athletes. But I wasn't even talking about over-training. I was talking about something completely different but don't worry you wouldn't understand. I can explain further the problems of training whilst suffering DOMS if you want?

You also seem to miss the point that you can perform any exercise to intervals and tempos not just running thus the wanking comment. There are exercises other then running that I would consider more challenging on the CV system and muscles then running - so if I perform them at the same intensity as a run am I not likely to get the same physiological benefits or is it something to do with magic fairy running powers that make your lungs magically expand.

Your posts coupled with your naievity are proper hilarious and I really hope your not a trainer of any description because your likely to get someone hurt with your lack of insight. If you only train yourself and go for runs on your own feel free to crack on running round like forrest gump but you won't make any serious gains unless you understand what your doing and why your doing it.

Thanks though i've had a good laugh today magic boy.

[Gazmac81]

im surprised yoos have any time for training with this thread

[Jeff Thomas]

Brilliant im told , hardy saw him though which is a good sign , hes managed to get time off his work with sponsor so that certianly helps , meant to be really sharp in sparring

he was down yesterday done check weigh in and was on target so looking good

think the build up starts tomorrow on ringside i would imagine

Prob on the box Gaz how's kevins training gone?

Looking forward to this one - i'm a little torn because i'm good pals with El Maachi. Hope everyone has a safe night and kev does himself justice. He's a cracking fighter.

[Jeff Thomas]

im surprised yoos have any time for training with this thread

ha ha Tuesdays i'm off and Wednesdays I work nights.

[Gazmac81]

Maybe they will meet in final

its a good line up again this time

Brilliant im told , hardy saw him though which is a good sign , hes managed to get time off his work with sponsor so that certianly helps , meant to be really sharp in sparring

he was down yesterday done check weigh in and was on target so looking good

think the build up starts tomorrow on ringside i would imagine

Prob on the box Gaz how's kevins training gone?

Looking forward to this one - i'm a little torn because i'm good pals with El Maachi. Hope everyone has a safe night and kev does himself justice. He's a cracking fighter.