ALI VS. TYSON

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 01 Jul 2005, 15:47

Sweet Scientist wrote:
Grimm wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote: Joe Frazier got 'messed up' too...see the pictures in Sports Illustrated the week after the 3/8/71 fight...and that was after a 3 1/2 year layoff with Ali's diminished reflexes and legs...Joe Frazier, though, was at his absolute peak...and he never reached that peak again after that fight...Frazier was 'softened up' a little after that fight, which is why he ducked Ali for over 2 years after it...Joe Frazier was no fool...he knew there was pain involved when you fought Ali...even after his prime...Joe Frazier was in and out of the Hospital after that 1st fight too..I remember rumors about Frazier retiring after that 1st fight...Frazier took a beating the same as Ali, he just managed to win 3 more rounds and the fight...
Joe Frazier was not in and out of the hospital because of Ali, Joe Frazier was in and out of the hospital before and after he fought Ali because he had high blood pressure.
Joe Frazier absolutely, positively was in the hospital because of Ali after their 1st fight...I vividly remember that...there were rumors about a retached retina (which proved untrue), dizzy spells, etc. Have you seen pictures of Fraziers' face after that 1st fight? (see Sports Illustrated the week after the fight...Frazier was very camera shy after that fight, but the SI pictures were shot before he left the ring.) You're going to tell me he didn't get 'messed up'? Frazier took a lot of punishment in that fight...and never fought at the same level again the rest of his career...you'll notice who won both rematches...you'll notice that Frazier ducked the rematch for years...ultimately taking on a young underdog he thought he would easily beat (Foreman)...Frazier peaked on 3/8/71...I'll give him tons of credit for that fight...but he did get 'messed up' and wound up in the hospital, in and out for a while...the blood pressure thing could have been an excuse because he was in denial...didn't want to admit that Ali was responsible...they weren't exactly buddies back then...

Well everyone has their excuses.

But you say that Ali and Frazier weren't friends back then, Joe Frazier still hates Ali to this day.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 03 Jul 2005, 19:01

Sweet Scientist wrote:
cultus wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote: OK...I won't 'bitch'...but only an asshole would say Buster Douglas was better than Ali...you have some very strange ideas, indeed...
I din't say that Douglas was better than ALI where did you read this?? :)
The 2nd of 5 questions I asked you to answer a few posts up...Can you read???

Oh yeah you asked me was Douglas more talented than Ali and I tohught you ment was Tyson more talented than ALI.. just Dint't think anybody would even think of that. .. and NOW im really certain you have not seen Tyson's early fight's.. that is just typical

.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 03 Jul 2005, 20:43

cultus wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:
cultus wrote: I din't say that Douglas was better than ALI where did you read this?? :)
The 2nd of 5 questions I asked you to answer a few posts up...Can you read???
Oh yeah you asked me was Douglas more talented than Ali and I tohught you ment was Tyson more talented than ALI.. just Dint't think anybody would even think of that. .. and NOW im really certain you have not seen Tyson's early fight's.. that is just typical .

So you think that Tyson was more talented than Ali?

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 03 Jul 2005, 20:44

cultus wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:
cultus wrote: I din't say that Douglas was better than ALI where did you read this?? :)

The 2nd of 5 questions I asked you to answer a few posts up...Can you read???
Oh yeah you asked me was Douglas more talented than Ali and I tohught you ment was Tyson more talented than ALI.. just Dint't think anybody would even think of that. .. and NOW im really certain you have not seen Tyson's early fight's.. that is just typical .

Seen them all...good bye...

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 03 Jul 2005, 21:48

Grimm wrote:
cultus wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote: The 2nd of 5 questions I asked you to answer a few posts up...Can you read???
Oh yeah you asked me was Douglas more talented than Ali and I tohught you ment was Tyson more talented than ALI.. just Dint't think anybody would even think of that. .. and NOW im really certain you have not seen Tyson's early fight's.. that is just typical .
So you think that Tyson was more talented than Ali?

Do you?

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 04 Jul 2005, 04:30

mrbassie wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:
dempseyfire wrote: Actually, he beat Jones pretty clearly . . 6-3-1 on my card.

But that's a bad argument . . .Ali got up against Cooper to win the bout . . a prime Tyson got destroyed by Douglas and never got up.
In the first Ali and Cooper fight Cooper knocked him down and they cut Ali's gloves to give Ali time to recover too!
That's a myth

Its not a myth. ITS A FACT

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 04 Jul 2005, 04:45

This silly thread still going huh? Havent read a single post in it but...........Tyson suffers a total mental meltdown before round 10 and is utterly humiliated into a stoppage defeat

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 04 Jul 2005, 05:47

bollox wrote:This silly thread still going huh? Havent read a single post in it but...........Tyson suffers a total mental meltdown before round 10 and is utterly humiliated into a stoppage defeat

You're damn right, although I don't think Iron(less) Mike would make it to the 10th!!!

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 04 Jul 2005, 11:41

KO Atrist wrote:
mrbassie wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote: In the first Ali and Cooper fight Cooper knocked him down and they cut Ali's gloves to give Ali time to recover too!
That's a myth
Its not a myth. ITS A FACT

It's not a fact. IT'S A MYTH! I have the fight on tape including the between rounds footage and if the break goes over a minute then it's only by a matter of seconds. The glove tore, that much is true but Dundee didn't cut it, it used to be one of his 'round the dinner table stories that he made the tear worse by pulling up the stitches (nobody but you, including Cooper has ever claimed that he cut the glove) but he's admitted the story isn't true.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 04 Jul 2005, 12:09

mrbassie wrote:
KO Atrist wrote:
mrbassie wrote: That's a myth
Its not a myth. ITS A FACT
It's not a fact. IT'S A MYTH! I have the fight on tape including the between rounds footage and if the break goes over a minute then it's only by a matter of seconds. The glove tore, that much is true but Dundee didn't cut it, it used to be one of his 'round the dinner table stories that he made the tear worse by pulling up the stitches (nobody but you, including Cooper has ever claimed that he cut the glove) but he's admitted the story isn't true.

I have to agree with mrbassie on this one.

The glove was torn earlier in the fight, Dundee just stuck his finger in the hole and made it a little bigger.

Boxing News did a big feature on this fight about 5 years ago as they were tired of the debate and exaggerated stories about the length of the 'infamous' between round break.

They got hold of the original BBC footage and the break was 65 seconds.

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 04 Jul 2005, 12:13

Dundee's admitted he didn't even do that.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 04 Jul 2005, 12:53

KOJOE90 wrote:They got hold of the original BBC footage and the break was 65 seconds.

Got the BBC version a while ago and I counted 63 seconds - going by Harry Carpenter's voice rather than the film, which jump-cuts at one point. The most amazing thing about the between rounds after the knockdown is how out of it Clay/Ali is! It's not impossible to imagine a modern day British ref stopping it when Clay is standing up and down, and rolling his head around in dream land. The young prospect's backers must have been kacking it.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 04 Jul 2005, 19:14

Grimm wrote:Do you?

Yes, I think young Tyson was more talented. I got a dvd collection with old fights few weeks ago and have now absolutely differente oppinions about old fighters. Ali was very good but defenetely not much better than Holmes.. that's garbage. Ali vs Tyson would have been an awesome fight but that crap that you people say that Ali would have beaten him hands down, well that's just all in your cloudy-fuzzy heads.. enjoy :)

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 04 Jul 2005, 19:18

and .. he was only 5'11 .. what second game plan can he have against guys much bigger in size and reach..

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 04 Jul 2005, 19:32

cultus wrote: well that's just all in your cloudy-fuzzy heads.. enjoy :)

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 04 Jul 2005, 19:46

cultus wrote: I got a dvd collection with old fights few weeks ago and have now absolutely differente oppinions about old fighters.

Congratulations! Now you undoubtedly have several guys on that DVD who would have done the same thing Buster did...it's OK to love Mike...it's OK to love anybody...but your love doesn't make them the best...

Tyson had many flaws that you've never addressed...and the last time he beat a quality fighter was in 1989...you should really think about that...seriously...

If he was good enough to beat some of the best ever, why couldn't he beat his own contemporaries? (Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, etc.)

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 04 Jul 2005, 23:33

cultus wrote:
Grimm wrote:Do you?
Yes, I think young Tyson was more talented. I got a dvd collection with old fights few weeks ago and have now absolutely differente oppinions about old fighters. Ali was very good but defenetely not much better than Holmes.. that's garbage. Ali vs Tyson would have been an awesome fight but that crap that you people say that Ali would have beaten him hands down, well that's just all in your cloudy-fuzzy heads.. enjoy :)

What do you know we have something in common.

I believe that Tyson is the most talented heavyweight of all time.

He had power,speed,chin,heart(don't believe me watch the Douglas fight), an incredible defense.

He was the man, and when you have everything like he did the only thing that can stop you is yourself and that's what happened, he self destructed.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 04 Jul 2005, 23:39

Sweet Scientist wrote:
cultus wrote: I got a dvd collection with old fights few weeks ago and have now absolutely differente oppinions about old fighters.
Congratulations! Now you undoubtedly have several guys on that DVD who would have done the same thing Buster did...it's OK to love Mike...it's OK to love anybody...but your love doesn't make them the best...

Tyson had many flaws that you've never addressed...and the last time he beat a quality fighter was in 1989...you should really think about that...seriously...

If he was good enough to beat some of the best ever, why couldn't he beat his own contemporaries? (Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, etc.)

He didn't face Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis while he was in his prime that is why he couldn't beat them.

That's like asking why didn't Ali beat Holmes or why Joe Louis didn't beat Marciano.

If Mike Tyson had been in his prime he would've Ko'd Lewis in 4, Douglas in 1 and Holyfield's trainer would've stopped the fight for him.

Ali vs. Tyson

Hey I don't even think Ali could have survived a prime Mike Tyson. He's not the slow moving forward guys that Ali was used to fighting.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 05 Jul 2005, 00:33

Grimm wrote: He didn't face Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis while he was in his prime that is why he couldn't beat them.

When he faced Douglas, he was 37-0-0 & 24 years old...he was a 40 - 1 favorite (forty to one, not a misprint)...if that wasn't his prime, what was? If he was in his 'prime' for his previous fight...he was in his prime for the Douglas fight...he just got his ass thoroughly kicked, in his prime...and...and, he never came back from that defeat...your prime doesn't end when you're 24...he was exposed as a guy who couldn't handle adversity...every other great champion could...

When he faced Holyfield he was just 30 years old...with only 1 loss, and Holyfield was thought to be in decline...Tyson was the favorite again...but he was stopped...couldn't handle adversity...again...the bully got his ass 'out bullied' and TKO'd

He was past his prime for Lewis...but so was Lewis, Tyson was actually a year younger!...got his ass beat again...

...and you say he would beat Ali...but at age 24, he couldn't even stay on his feet for Douglas, much less beat him...in his prime...

He couldn't finish the fights against Holyfield at age 30...

He couldn't compete with Lewis, even though he was the younger man...

A boxers 'prime' ends when he gets old...you think 24 is old? That's the last time Tyson won a meaningful fight...age 24...he didn't get old...he was flawed to begin with and was exposed...period.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 05 Jul 2005, 00:45

sweet scientist are u telling me the same mike tyson that went out their and destroyed trevor berbick , tony tubbs, larry holmes, and mike spinks was the same tyson that went in against douglas??? no way u could tell when he took his shirt off he didnt look as in shape. jacobs died, don king got a hold of him, his wife had a miscarriage and divorced him, he was influenced to fire kevin rooney, and bill slayton. He was so mentally out of it and his boys that took over were destroying mike and now mike was suffering physically as well as mentally. mike was catching pigeons in japan for the japanese people instead of training. buster may have fought his peak fight, but mike fought by far his worst and he showed a downcline after the spinks fight iwthout rooney. rooney had him doing all the right things. mike got hit the hardest hes ever been hit against bruno to that date. and williams was a premature stoppage so we never know if williams might have given mike a little trouble. mike had no motivation for that fight he was in a lose lose situation. buster fought the fight of his life, im not taking that away from him, but mike did NOT FIGHT LIKE THE PRIME MIKE THAT NIGHT. IM NOT EVEN GOING TO GET INTO THE LONG COUNT IN THE 8TH ROUND. BY THE WAY MIKE DIDNT GET HIS ASS BEAT, THE FIGHT WAS EVEN ON THE SCORECARDS BUDDY.

Against holyfield, he was not the same miek either. the right that landed on holyfield in the opening seconds would have knocked out hoylfield if landed in 1988. mike was losing everything. remember he had a long ring layoff did not spar for 3 years then came back to fight guys who were terrified of him. HOLYFIELD FOUGHT HIS BEST FIGHT THAT NIGHT AND SHOWED HE STILL HAD IT AT 34. HE HAD EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND NOTHING TO LOSE AND HE CAME TO FIGHT AND HSOWED HE WASNT AFRAID OF TYSON. IF THAT FIGHT HAPPENED IN 1988 ??? OR IN TYSONS PRIME?? TYSON WINS BY KO.

LEWIS FOUGHT WHAT MAY HAVE BEEN HIS BEST FIGHT AGAINST TYSON. THAT LENNOX LEWIS WAS IN HIS PRIME THAT NIGHT OLD OR NOT. HE DIDNT FIGHT LIKE HIS AGE, HE FOUGHT LIKE HE WAS 26 NOT 36.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 05 Jul 2005, 00:58

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:sweet scientist are u telling me the same mike tyson that went out their and destroyed trevor berbick , tony tubbs, larry holmes, and mike spinks was the same tyson that went in against douglas??? no way u could tell when he took his shirt off he didnt look as in shape. jacobs died, don king got a hold of him, his wife had a miscarriage and divorced him, he was influenced to fire kevin rooney, and bill slayton. He was so mentally out of it and his boys that took over were destroying mike and now mike was suffering physically as well as mentally. mike was catching pigeons in japan for the japanese people instead of training. buster may have fought his peak fight, but mike fought by far his worst and he showed a downcline after the spinks fight iwthout rooney. rooney had him doing all the right things. mike got hit the hardest hes ever been hit against bruno to that date. and williams was a premature stoppage so we never know if williams might have given mike a little trouble. mike had no motivation for that fight he was in a lose lose situation. buster fought the fight of his life, im not taking that away from him, but mike did NOT FIGHT LIKE THE PRIME MIKE THAT NIGHT. IM NOT EVEN GOING TO GET INTO THE LONG COUNT IN THE 8TH ROUND. BY THE WAY MIKE DIDNT GET HIS ASS BEAT, THE FIGHT WAS EVEN ON THE SCORECARDS BUDDY.

Against holyfield, he was not the same miek either. the right that landed on holyfield in the opening seconds would have knocked out hoylfield if landed in 1988. mike was losing everything. remember he had a long ring layoff did not spar for 3 years then came back to fight guys who were terrified of him. HOLYFIELD FOUGHT HIS BEST FIGHT THAT NIGHT AND SHOWED HE STILL HAD IT AT 34. HE HAD EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND NOTHING TO LOSE AND HE CAME TO FIGHT AND HSOWED HE WASNT AFRAID OF TYSON. IF THAT FIGHT HAPPENED IN 1988 ??? OR IN TYSONS PRIME?? TYSON WINS BY KO.

LEWIS FOUGHT WHAT MAY HAVE BEEN HIS BEST FIGHT AGAINST TYSON. THAT LENNOX LEWIS WAS IN HIS PRIME THAT NIGHT OLD OR NOT. HE DIDNT FIGHT LIKE HIS AGE, HE FOUGHT LIKE HE WAS 26 NOT 36.

You have any more excuses for Tyson??? Only excuse after excuse can explain how a man at age 24 is not in his prime...

Where did you read about that, by the way?...you were only about 2 when Douglas destroyed him...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 05 Jul 2005, 01:23

I do believe they have tapes for the fights????? so i believe i watched it and saw for myself, and made my OWN OPINION . I also asked my dad what he thought of it since he watched it live and knows a lot about it. and i read lots of articles in the many books and magazines i have.
i was 3 by the way.

give me one reason in that fight that demonstrated he was the same fighter, compared to when he took out holmes or tubbs. or even tyrell biggs.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 05 Jul 2005, 01:23

Sweet Scientist wrote:
Grimm wrote: He didn't face Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis while he was in his prime that is why he couldn't beat them.
When he faced Douglas, he was 37-0-0 & 24 years old...he was a 40 - 1 favorite (forty to one, not a misprint)...if that wasn't his prime, what was? If he was in his 'prime' for his previous fight...he was in his prime for the Douglas fight...he just got his ass thoroughly kicked, in his prime...and...and, he never came back from that defeat...your prime doesn't end when you're 24...he was exposed as a guy who couldn't handle adversity...every other great champion could...

So because he was undefeated previously meant he was in his prime?

So by what your saying Michael Spinks was in his prime when he fought Tyson...Right?

Oh and Larry Holmes was in his prime for the Michael Spinks fight......Right?

And James J Jeffries was in his prime against Jack Johnson.

Is this what you are saying?

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 05 Jul 2005, 01:29

Sweet Scientist wrote:
Grimm wrote: He didn't face Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis while he was in his prime that is why he couldn't beat them.
When he faced Holyfield he was just 30 years old...with only 1 loss, and Holyfield was thought to be in decline...Tyson was the favorite again...but he was stopped...couldn't handle adversity...again...the bully got his ass 'out bullied' and TKO'd

He was past his prime for Lewis...but so was Lewis, Tyson was actually a year younger!...got his ass beat again...

Tyson being younger has nothing to do with him being in his prime fighting form.

If I were to go by what you were saying......

Bernard Hopkins was far past his prime when he fought William Joppy who is 5 years younger than him.......and William Joppy was much in his prime when he fought Hopkins...........

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 05 Jul 2005, 01:33

Sweet Scientist wrote:
Grimm wrote: He didn't face Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis while he was in his prime that is why he couldn't beat them.
A boxers 'prime' ends when he gets old...you think 24 is old? That's the last time Tyson won a meaningful fight...age 24...he didn't get old...he was flawed to begin with and was exposed...period.

A boxers prime does not always end when they are old, some boxers just enter their prime as they age.

Prime meaning best fighting form.

Lennox Lewis entered his prime late and Bernard Hopkins did as well.