Jack Dempsey vs Jerry Quarry, primes

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I rate all kinds of fighters from that era, and earlier. I just don't find Dempsey to be some sort of indestructible force of nature that many on this forum and elsewhere do. I think it's one of those situations where you're just supposed to acknowledge a level of greatness and any dissenting opinion is considered bias or ignorance.

I've seen Jack as the greatest Heavyweight of all time and a top 10 all time fighter. If that isn't overrated, I don't know what is. I rate Dempsey with Tyson and neither of their fans like it. But it isn't that I have hate for someone I never saw fight live or a disdain for the era. I've said many times that Jack was the most important fighter in history. I just don't think he was as great as the consensus does and I absolutely never will.

I reckon about as many on this forum dismiss him as revere him.

He was obviously well promoted during his time. This will have had an impact on his rating. But all those guys who saw him are dead. The internet is awash with people who think he was rubbish.

I think he has troubles with guys like Tunney, Charles, Walcott, Young etc... (he'd win some, lose some) And would have difficulty in walking onto power punchers who owned iron chins (Foreman, Liston)... He'd have been one of the top (or THE top) HWs in any era. Beyond that though who can ever really tell...

I find his lovers to far outweigh his detractors. They are often posters with opinions that I respect so maybe I just take more notice. There are some, like me, in the middle that get labeled for hating because I don't think he would run a Holyfield out of the ring. I honestly think Evander would beat his ass.

I'm still getting slaughtered on here because I have little doubt that Joe Frazier would handle him. And it immediately goes to hating, underrating or being ignorant to the machine that was Dempsey. Very little regard that I just think Holyfield & Frazier were greater fighters with rough styles for someone like Jack.

Edit: And I agree he would be top 5 in any era.

[Ezzard]

Dempsey-Holyfield would be a brilliant fight. Lots of momentum swings.

Frazier-Dempsey depends on how Frazier starts. If he doesn't take too much in the first 2-3 rounds then it's another hum-dinger...

[raylawpc]

We never discuss these things, but I wonder what difference the gloves of the different eras could make.

That's exactly why these head-to-head comparisons between guys who fought 50 or 60 years apart is, in a word, asinine. These differences - differences in gloves and other equipment (for example, Dempsey never wore a mouthpiece) rules, styles, etc. - have to be part of the equation.

When do they fight? Under 1919 rules, equipment, training methods, styles, etc.? Or under 1970 rules, equipment, training methods, styles, etc.?

And even then, how do you even if you take that into account? We've never seen Dempsey fight under 1970s conditions, just as we've never seen Quarry fight under 1919 conditions. So how do we know how they would have done under those conditions. We don't know and have no way to know.

Like I said, asinine . . .

[Crease]

Dempsey is good level above Quarry... Dempsey by late stoppage I would say.

[yancey]

We never discuss these things, but I wonder what difference the gloves of the different eras could make.

That's exactly why these head-to-head comparisons between guys who fought 50 or 60 years apart is, in a word, asinine. These differences - differences in gloves and other equipment (for example, Dempsey never wore a mouthpiece) rules, styles, etc. - have to be part of the equation.

When do they fight? Under 1919 rules, equipment, training methods, styles, etc.? Or under 1970 rules, equipment, training methods, styles, etc.?

And even then, how do you even if you take that into account? We've never seen Dempsey fight under 1970s conditions, just as we've never seen Quarry fight under 1919 conditions. So how do we know how they would have done under those conditions. We don't know and have no way to know.

Like I said, asinine . . .

Asinine, but fun.

[yancey]

btw, when I started this thread, I should have also stated that neither man is allowed to stand near his downed opponent and be allowed to knock the ever living crap out of the opponent as he struggles to his feet.

[dempseyfire]

We never discuss these things, but I wonder what difference the gloves of the different eras could make.

That's exactly why these head-to-head comparisons between guys who fought 50 or 60 years apart is, in a word, asinine. These differences - differences in gloves and other equipment (for example, Dempsey never wore a mouthpiece) rules, styles, etc. - have to be part of the equation.

When do they fight? Under 1919 rules, equipment, training methods, styles, etc.? Or under 1970 rules, equipment, training methods, styles, etc.?

And even then, how do you even if you take that into account? We've never seen Dempsey fight under 1970s conditions, just as we've never seen Quarry fight under 1919 conditions. So how do we know how they would have done under those conditions. We don't know and have no way to know.

Like I said, asinine . . .

I'm of the school which thinks the smaller gloves of that era produced more skilled fighters overall. 4 ounce horseshoe gloves meant that if you tried any Winky Wright squared-up style you'd get creamed. Fighters were forced to learn to slip and roll and develop superb timing and judge of distance, not only b/c you had less of a 'shield' but also b/c if you came in and got countered it would hurt more than it does with larger gloves.

And the whole 'you were allowed to stand over your fallen opponents' point is pretty mute b/c fights are stopped much sooner in more recent times anyway. If Dempsey-Firpo took place today Firpo would've never made it out of the first round, the third knockdown in which it looked like he'd just been shot would've ended the fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Based on the fact he had many more one-punch KOs, and dropped many more guys with one punch than Frazier, who had a great left hook but generally wore guys down rather than stop them early, which Dempsey did often.

The level of competition Dempsey faced is the reason he seems more the ko artist than Frazier. If Frazier had to face the collection of white hope stiffs, pass their prime lightheavys and one of the worse champions in the history of boxing to win the title he would have been considered the greatest knockout artist of all time. Imagine too if Frazier could stand over his opponents and hit them while they were trying to get back up? He would have had a knockout over Ali!
In his 11th fight, Frazier was already fighting the likes of Bonavena...you would have to be some super Dempsey fanboy to think he fought better comp.

The worse crime is stating Quarry beats Dempsey. Jesus. There is so much bullsh!t in this thread (Quarry's competition was way better than Dempsey's, Quarry's chin was much better, Quarry was more proficient technically, Frazier hit harder than Dempsey, Quarry would counter-punch Dempsey stupid), I wouldn't know where to begin shaking my stick.

Its only a crime to your superman fantasy of Dempsey. Quarry's competition was better. Except for maybe Tunney, nobody Dempsey fought would have been able to sniff the top ten during Quarry's era. Quarry took bombs from much harder punchers than Dempsey. Dempsey was staggered by fighters that probably would have made Quarry flinch a bit. And just watch Dempseys fights; he was a sucker for right hand counters, and Quarry excelled at that. Its the reason George Foreman states he avoided fighting Quarry.

The only fantasy at play here, my friend, is your ludicrous displays of ignorance regarding Dempsey's competition.

[Goodnight, Irene]

It was better than any current competition without a doubt. Not that I said otherwise. I'm quite sure he would be champion today for as long as he felt like fighting making 30 million a fight. But I wouldn't bother with any current day Heavyweight comparisons. It's the worst the division has ever been. Though no champion will ever be as poor as Carnera.

I can name three in the space of barely the last thirty years...

Hasim Rahman
Shannon Briggs
Leon Spinks

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd take Rahman comfortably over Primo. The other two are good calls. I always forget Briggs because George whipped his ass.

[Duran Fan]

Dempsey is WAY above Quarry.. Id say JD would win around the 5th round due to a cut stoppage.

[BoxBuzz]

Yancey, I stated that I truly believe that Quarry is chronically under rated here.

With that said I have some observations....some of which you brought up.

The differences between glove padding and mouth pieces in these different eras has caught my imagination.


Dempsey remained one of the most articulate and "non affected" boxers of all time in an era of low padding and no moutpieces.

Quarry just the opposite with greater padding and mouthpieces.

Seems so counter intuitive. Except I can say with authority that quick KO's are absolutely easier on the constitution than having someone with padded gloves beating on your head for 15 rounds. But neither man was susceptible to KO's. And both were hit quite often.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Yancey, I stated that I truly believe that Quarry is chronically under rated here.

With that said I have some observations....some of which you brought up.

The differences between glove padding and mouth pieces in these different eras has caught my imagination.


Dempsey remained one of the most articulate and "non affected" boxers of all time in an era of low padding and no moutpieces.

Quarry just the opposite with greater padding and mouthpieces.

Seems so counter intuitive. Except I can say with authority that quick KO's are absolutely easier on the constitution than having someone with padded gloves beating on your head for 15 rounds. But neither man was susceptible to KO's. And both were hit quite often.

Part of it is owed to the fact Dempsey ended so many fights early, & had other bouts where he took minimalised damage, because his opponents clammed up offensively, for fear of Dempsey's not-inconsiderable countenance (after he'd made his name on Willard's head), two things Quarry didn't have going for him.

[yancey]

Yancey, I stated that I truly believe that Quarry is chronically under rated here.

With that said I have some observations....some of which you brought up.

The differences between glove padding and mouth pieces in these different eras has caught my imagination.


Dempsey remained one of the most articulate and "non affected" boxers of all time in an era of low padding and no moutpieces.

Quarry just the opposite with greater padding and mouthpieces.

Seems so counter intuitive. Except I can say with authority that quick KO's are absolutely easier on the constitution than having someone with padded gloves beating on your head for 15 rounds. But neither man was susceptible to KO's. And both were hit quite often.

Part of it is owed to the fact Dempsey ended so many fights early, & had other bouts where he took minimalised damage, because his opponents clammed up offensively, for fear of Dempsey's not-inconsiderable countenance (after he'd made his name on Willard's head), two things Quarry didn't have going for him.

Think Smokin' Joe would have clammed up?

[yancey]

btw.....

Joe Frazier had a 100% knockout percentage against sub-200 pound opponents.

Maybe Jack could have loaded up with some iron bolts or something to get over 200 lbs.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I don't, Yance. Frazier was absolutely fearless. He's like one of those worker bees who just launch themselves, head-long & without pause for thought, into a one of those giant raiding hornets. Champions to the end...however swift that is against such a force of nature

[Goodnight, Irene]

btw.....

Joe Frazier had a 100% knockout percentage against sub-200 pound opponents.

Maybe Jack could have loaded up with some iron bolts or something to get over 200 lbs.

Mhmm. Interesting stat. Not a one of them a patch on Jack Dempsey. Not even a thread of a patch, in fact. Jimmy Ellis, Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena. Out-classed by Frazier, & out-classed by Dempsey.

[yancey]

Yancey, I stated that I truly believe that Quarry is chronically under rated here.

With that said I have some observations....some of which you brought up.

The differences between glove padding and mouth pieces in these different eras has caught my imagination.


Dempsey remained one of the most articulate and "non affected" boxers of all time in an era of low padding and no moutpieces.

Quarry just the opposite with greater padding and mouthpieces.

Seems so counter intuitive. Except I can say with authority that quick KO's are absolutely easier on the constitution than having someone with padded gloves beating on your head for 15 rounds. But neither man was susceptible to KO's. And both were hit quite often.

You are so right about the quick KO's being less harmful than being beat up by an accumulation puncher.

Both Ali and Quarry took some fearsome punishment from Frazier in their fights with him.

I suspect that played at least somewhat of a role in what happened to those two fellows after boxing.

Jerry should have quit the ring immediately after that second Frazier fight.

p.s. Always thought that the Earnie Shavers fight did Ali some real damage, too.

[yancey]

Yancey, I stated that I truly believe that Quarry is chronically under rated here.

With that said I have some observations....some of which you brought up.

The differences between glove padding and mouth pieces in these different eras has caught my imagination.


Dempsey remained one of the most articulate and "non affected" boxers of all time in an era of low padding and no moutpieces.

Quarry just the opposite with greater padding and mouthpieces.

Seems so counter intuitive. Except I can say with authority that quick KO's are absolutely easier on the constitution than having someone with padded gloves beating on your head for 15 rounds. But neither man was susceptible to KO's. And both were hit quite often.

Part of it is owed to the fact Dempsey ended so many fights early, & had other bouts where he took minimalised damage, because his opponents clammed up offensively, for fear of Dempsey's not-inconsiderable countenance (after he'd made his name on Willard's head), two things Quarry didn't have going for him.

Makes sense to me.

btw, sorry for interjecting Frazier into a thread meant to be about Dempsey and Quarry. Couldn't help myself, I reckon.

[big train express]

easy fight for jerry quarry

[Goodnight, Irene]

Yancey, I stated that I truly believe that Quarry is chronically under rated here.

With that said I have some observations....some of which you brought up.

The differences between glove padding and mouth pieces in these different eras has caught my imagination.


Dempsey remained one of the most articulate and "non affected" boxers of all time in an era of low padding and no moutpieces.

Quarry just the opposite with greater padding and mouthpieces.

Seems so counter intuitive. Except I can say with authority that quick KO's are absolutely easier on the constitution than having someone with padded gloves beating on your head for 15 rounds. But neither man was susceptible to KO's. And both were hit quite often.

Part of it is owed to the fact Dempsey ended so many fights early, & had other bouts where he took minimalised damage, because his opponents clammed up offensively, for fear of Dempsey's not-inconsiderable countenance (after he'd made his name on Willard's head), two things Quarry didn't have going for him.

Makes sense to me.

btw, sorry for interjecting Frazier into a thread meant to be about Dempsey and Quarry. Couldn't help myself, I reckon.

No cause for apologies, brojam. All in good fun. Too bad we can never find out for real.

[hhaehre]

Yancey, I stated that I truly believe that Quarry is chronically under rated here.

With that said I have some observations....some of which you brought up.

The differences between glove padding and mouth pieces in these different eras has caught my imagination.


Dempsey remained one of the most articulate and "non affected" boxers of all time in an era of low padding and no moutpieces.

Quarry just the opposite with greater padding and mouthpieces.

Seems so counter intuitive. Except I can say with authority that quick KO's are absolutely easier on the constitution than having someone with padded gloves beating on your head for 15 rounds. But neither man was susceptible to KO's. And both were hit quite often.

You are so right about the quick KO's being less harmful than being beat up by an accumulation puncher.

Both Ali and Quarry took some fearsome punishment from Frazier in their fights with him.

I suspect that played at least somewhat of a role in what happened to those two fellows after boxing.

Jerry should have quit the ring immediately after that second Frazier fight.

p.s. Always thought that the Earnie Shavers fight did Ali some real damage, too.

When we are talking about fighters with the number of fights that Quarry and Ali had I believe the damage comes down to genetics and physical attributes more than how many punches they took in particular fights. If you add up all the rounds, including amateur fights and sparring it does not matter how good defensively you are, the punches will add up. Some guys (most) will suffer some permanent damage from a long career in the ring but some will be unaffected. I'm sure a guy like Chuvalo took as much if not more that Jerry (not to mention brother Mike) but remain as lucid and articulate as ever. It must be something other than how many punches they took.

[yancey]

Yancey, I stated that I truly believe that Quarry is chronically under rated here.

With that said I have some observations....some of which you brought up.

The differences between glove padding and mouth pieces in these different eras has caught my imagination.


Dempsey remained one of the most articulate and "non affected" boxers of all time in an era of low padding and no moutpieces.

Quarry just the opposite with greater padding and mouthpieces.

Seems so counter intuitive. Except I can say with authority that quick KO's are absolutely easier on the constitution than having someone with padded gloves beating on your head for 15 rounds. But neither man was susceptible to KO's. And both were hit quite often.

You are so right about the quick KO's being less harmful than being beat up by an accumulation puncher.

Both Ali and Quarry took some fearsome punishment from Frazier in their fights with him.

I suspect that played at least somewhat of a role in what happened to those two fellows after boxing.

Jerry should have quit the ring immediately after that second Frazier fight.

p.s. Always thought that the Earnie Shavers fight did Ali some real damage, too.

When we are talking about fighters with the number of fights that Quarry and Ali had I believe the damage comes down to genetics and physical attributes more than how many punches they took in particular fights. If you add up all the rounds, including amateur fights and sparring it does not matter how good defensively you are, the punches will add up. Some guys (most) will suffer some permanent damage from a long career in the ring but some will be unaffected. I'm sure a guy like Chuvalo took as much if not more that Jerry (not to mention brother Mike) but remain as lucid and articulate as ever. It must be something other than how many punches they took.

You make good points.

Still, it is absolutely amazing to me that George Chuvalo is still in good shape. That man took so many punches for so many years. Amazing.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I haven't noticed any difference in Holyfield's speech pattern and he has been fighting damn near 40 years. I've heard people call him punch drunk. But he wasn't the most eloquent speaker in his youth.

One of the most shocking transformations I've ever seen was bowe instantaneously slurring after Golota. It's a rough, rough business. I try and remember that when I complain about the purses hurting the sport.

[Diamond WEAPON]

Dempsey kills Quarry, because he fought in the teens and twenties and men were simply harder back then.