Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Ambling Alp
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Ambling Alp »

bengulnaci1 wrote:As people have said, after that fight Ali attempt the Rope-the-Dope tactic in several other fights with limited success. Obvious examples are Norton III, Shavers, Frazier III,Young, Lyle aswell others

The reason it work well against Foreman, in my opinion, was the fact Foreman was a fast starter who often loaded up. Ali realised this and pretty much saw ever punch coming, anticipating and bracing himself.

A Frazier, Louis, Tyson or even Holyfield could obviously punch but maybe not with the blunt power Foreman possesed, but their greater accuracy, speed and punching in combination would have certainly troubled the Ali in Kinshasa, moreso than Foreman did, that night.
Ali would not have fought this way against Frazier, Louis, Tyson or Holyfield. At least not to the extent that he did against Foreman. He did use it to a certain extent against other fighters when he was way past his prime and fighting Shavers, Young, Norton III etc. He was older and could not use his legs as much as when he was younger.
However, it was not his main strategy. Against a Louis, Tyson, or Holyfield,a 32 year-old Ali would probably mix it up with fighting off the ropes, fighting toe-toe in the center of the ring, and bouncing around on feet part of the time. A prime Ali would be bouncing around most of the time against anyone.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

Ambling Alp wrote:
bengulnaci1 wrote:As people have said, after that fight Ali attempt the Rope-the-Dope tactic in several other fights with limited success. Obvious examples are Norton III, Shavers, Frazier III,Young, Lyle aswell others

The reason it work well against Foreman, in my opinion, was the fact Foreman was a fast starter who often loaded up. Ali realised this and pretty much saw ever punch coming, anticipating and bracing himself.

A Frazier, Louis, Tyson or even Holyfield could obviously punch but maybe not with the blunt power Foreman possesed, but their greater accuracy, speed and punching in combination would have certainly troubled the Ali in Kinshasa, moreso than Foreman did, that night.
Ali would not have fought this way against Frazier, Louis, Tyson or Holyfield.

Of course he wouldn't. But that is what the thread is about.
NazNaci1
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by NazNaci1 »

I take your point, Alp and agree.

I was merely speculating that the Kinshasa version of Ali, on that night, employing the same tactics, would have found it more difficult against some of the past & future HOF'ers.
Ambling Alp
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Ambling Alp »

Well, if we are going to speculate that he would have fought this same strategy against everyone, I think most of the time the other guys is just going stand back. Tyson and a few others probably could not have resisted and may have punched themselves out.

Of course, are we giving all of these guys the benefit of hindsight and assume that they saw what happened to Foreman? Most of them would be smart enough not to punch themselves out.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by NazNaci1 »

I think the point Ezzzard was making was that if we forget hindsight, forget 'if the other guys had seen the Foreman fight' etc...simply..

Ali in Kinshasa, using Rope-The-Dope, does he suceed against most of the other great HW's of the past?

That's how I interpreted the question, anyways.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

Agreed, it was pretty straight forward. I think Alp just jumped into the discussion and missed that part.
Ambling Alp
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Ambling Alp »

No, I was just saying that after it happened it looks obvious that Foreman punched himself out and that he did not have to do that.
However, at the time it did not seem that way at all. It looked like suicide to take all of that punishment from a brutal puncher like Foreman.

A lot of aggressive fighters would have fallen into that trap had they never seen it before. They would have punched themselves out as well. If Foreman couldn't even come close to stopping him, no one else would have either. However, some fighters would simply stepped back and not thrown so many punches. Then Ali would have changed his strategy.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

Yes, he would not have fought like that. As difficult as it is for you to stomach Ali losing even in a hypothetical scenario. That's the thread you're in.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by The Second God »

Ali was a Phd in that fight and Holmes was an undergrad.

Ali was not physically what he had been. But he was great enough to pull from his experience what he needed to win and to win in a way that left no doubt as to the veracity of his skills.

That was a great fight and greater in my estimation by virtue of seeing a jaded fighter perform in a class above his physical deficiencies due to his natural ability and ring smarts.

Ali's heart and his ability got him through a lot of things.

Apparently it got him Parkinsons disease as well.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

He has the Syndrome, not the Disease.
man
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by man »

Crease wrote:Joe would have bee clever enough to work out what Ali was up to.
everybody except for george foreman would have
figured it out ...
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by The Second God »

Goodnight, Irene wrote:He has the Syndrome, not the Disease.
That's like saying the operation was a success but the patient died. The results are the same, but you are right. Technically.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

The difference is more significant than that.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by The Second God »

Goodnight, Irene wrote:The difference is more significant than that.

Good leadbelly tune. Your user name.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Ezzard »

Whilst Foreman did punch himself out I think there were bigger factors.

Overplayed…

Ali did not take as much punishment as is written in the reports. Big shots to the body but he didn’t get hit with anything clean to the head at all. I have never thought for a single moment that he looked in danger in that fight.

Underplayed…

Foreman got hit with a lot of shots. Ali really stuck it to him. George took a lot of punishment but for the most part just stood there with little in the way of defence.

Foreman fought very poorly and yet would have still have squashed most other fighters that night. Had Ali been champion and Foreman more of the unknown quantity that Frazier fought it may have been more to his advantage. George seemed to be making the mistake all punchers fall into of believing his own hype.

I think very few of the greats would have lost that fight with the same tactics employed.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by man »

Ezzard wrote:Whilst Foreman did punch himself out I think there were bigger factors.

Overplayed…

Ali did not take as much punishment as is written in the reports. Big shots to the body but he didn’t get hit with anything clean to the head at all. I have never thought for a single moment that he looked in danger in that fight.

Underplayed…

Foreman got hit with a lot of shots. Ali really stuck it to him. George took a lot of punishment but for the most part just stood there with little in the way of defence.

Foreman fought very poorly and yet would have still have squashed most other fighters that night. Had Ali been champion and Foreman more of the unknown quantity that Frazier fought it may have been more to his advantage. George seemed to be making the mistake all punchers fall into of believing his own hype.

I think very few of the greats would have lost that fight with the same tactics employed.
could not agree more. plus, i think the whole fight
was simply misrepresented to the public, especially
in "when we were kings". ali was in no danger in this
fight. foreman was simply not accurate enough.

in a way foreman made an amateurish mistake in
continuing his "plan" round after round ignoring
that ali hit him heavily from the ropes. it was just
a very stupid fight foreman fought.

nevertheless he was up at nine and should have
been given a chance to continue ...
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

Ezzard wrote:Whilst Foreman did punch himself out I think there were bigger factors.

Overplayed…

Ali did not take as much punishment as is written in the reports. Big shots to the body but he didn’t get hit with anything clean to the head at all. I have never thought for a single moment that he looked in danger in that fight.

Underplayed…

Foreman got hit with a lot of shots. Ali really stuck it to him. George took a lot of punishment but for the most part just stood there with little in the way of defence.

Foreman fought very poorly and yet would have still have squashed most other fighters that night. Had Ali been champion and Foreman more of the unknown quantity that Frazier fought it may have been more to his advantage. George seemed to be making the mistake all punchers fall into of believing his own hype.

I think very few of the greats would have lost that fight with the same tactics employed.
You just touched on something Ive always wondered, Ezz. What would happen if Ali took Frazies place in Kingston, caught unawares as Frazier was? Would be mighty interesting.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by man »

foreman was not that unknown before frazier.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

True, but he was somewhat unproven, heavily under-estimated, and Frazier took him a little lightly. If Ali met him under those circumstances.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Ezzard »

Goodnight, Irene wrote:True, but he was somewhat unproven, heavily under-estimated, and Frazier took him a little lightly. If Ali met him under those circumstances.
Yes, not an unknown quantity in the strictest sense but nobody realised just how hard he could hit.

I think Foreman would have beaten many of the greats on that night in Kingston if they were a number of defences into their reign.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

Ezzard wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:True, but he was somewhat unproven, heavily under-estimated, and Frazier took him a little lightly. If Ali met him under those circumstances.
Yes, not an unknown quantity in the strictest sense but nobody realised just how hard he could hit.

I think Foreman would have beaten many of the greats on that night in Kingston if they were a number of defences into their reign.

He was an Olympic Gold medalist. It wasn't that he was unknown as much as it was that he was unproven and Joe was a freaking monster.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Ezzard »

I also think it’s hard for a champion after a certain number of defences. Frazier in particular had a very hard time.

Ali was his mountain. He conquered it only for many to try and claim he hadn’t really won the fight. The story of him in Tokyo going back stage to meet Tina Turner to be told she wouldn’t see him must have been a bitter pill. To have beaten Ali and to still be disregarded… It must have taken away much of the desire of the champion.

Like The Rumble… which I believe was fairly one-sided… I think FOTC has also been misrepresented. It’s a clear win for Frazier. Yes, it’s keenly fought and a very competitive fight but I don’t think there is any doubt as to who won even without the KD.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

I actually scored it closer than the judges, I had it dead-even going into the final round (though Frazier had all the momentum). It was kind of surreal to watch my card swing so wildly. Ali shut him out totally early on, then Frazier slowly, but consistently, ran him down. I did think it very close, though.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by ThatOne »

You gentleman are being too critical of George Foreman. When Ali employed the rope a dope against Foreman he had the benefit of tactical surprise. That's why it never worked nearly as well in future bouts. His opponents were aware of it and planned their response.

I assure you MacArthur wasn't about to outflank the North Koreans a second team and encircle them from the rear.
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Re: Rumble In the Jungle: Rope-a-Dope

Post by The Second God »

Ambling Alp wrote:No, I was just saying that after it happened it looks obvious that Foreman punched himself out and that he did not have to do that.
However, at the time it did not seem that way at all. It looked like suicide to take all of that punishment from a brutal puncher like Foreman.

A lot of aggressive fighters would have fallen into that trap had they never seen it before. They would have punched themselves out as well. If Foreman couldn't even come close to stopping him, no one else would have either. However, some fighters would simply stepped back and not thrown so many punches. Then Ali would have changed his strategy.

Of course it was a trap. Ali was no green horn kid in this fight. George took the bait, every trap has bait or you don't catch anything very often.
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