In The Cold Light Of Day......

[nobby_nobbins]

I have no doubt Haye's injury is genuine and I think it must have affected his performance. However, I don't think it was the decisive factor. For all his power, Haye is not a natural, come forward fighter who can advance relentlessly, cutting off the ring in the mould of a Tyson, Benn etc. He can dart in with pot shots but can't apply consistent pressure. I honestly think Chisora would have had a better chance in there last night. He is a genuine, strong heavyweight who would not have been thrown around by Wlad and he can fight effectively going forwards, rolling effectively as he does so. I really hope - if he gets past Fury - that he gets the fight with Wlad that was originally signed.

[damianhucker1]

suppose a cruiserweight bout vs Bernard Hopkins would be credible , if Haye could actually manage to stop him , which i think he would , then it could be a way of ending the career on a high .

[THE MESSIAH]

Imagine if he'd called it off, he would have been ripped to bits. instead he's getting ripped for losing on points.

I think he did his best. I said from the start that he wouldn't throw enough punches to win on points. I said after the first round that he didn't look right.

When I had a broken toe, it looked a lot like Haye's and I can't tell you how much effected my balance.

Its just pain. You are fighting for the biggest prize in sport, you forget the pain.

Cn it be any worse than a broken jow/nose? People fight with those all the time.

Pampered pooch that talks a good fight and throws not enough.

[mkirkhope]

suppose a cruiserweight bout vs Bernard Hopkins would be credible , if Haye could actually manage to stop him , which i think he would , then it could be a way of ending the career on a high .

No way does he stop (or beat) B-Hop. Unless age suddenly catches up with Bernard between now and the fight.

[The Lone Wolf]

Haye looked absolutely clueless in there last night. Winging his punches and hardly throwing. Wlad exposed him completely for what he is and in the end it was he who showed what is wrong with boxing - fighters turning up for paydays and just trying to survive. He's as bad as Mosley as far as I'm concerned.

What an idiotic post.

[Dioufy]

For Haye to win, he needed to get under that jab and throw the big right, and catch Wlad stepping forward. So much easier said than done. Wlad was just awesome to watch for purists like us, but boring as hell. Arrrgghhhh, I feel much like I did after the Hatton/Mayweather fight.

[mkirkhope]

For Haye to win, he needed to get under that jab and throw the big right, and catch Wlad stepping forward. So much easier said than done. Wlad was just awesome to watch for purists like us, but boring as hell. Arrrgghhhh, I feel much like I did after the Hatton/Mayweather fight.

Maybe you feel like that because this fight was built up in the UK exactly like Hatton/Mayweather: A British guy with limitations taking on a much superior opponent who is widely favoured by the bookies, but by the time of the fight it's been turned in the UK only into a pick em with the amazing, exciting british guy having a real chance (as re-iterated over and over again by anyone on Sky).

The main reason I bet on Wlad in this fight was that the buildup felt exactly like Hatton Mayweather to me where my initial instincts told me Wlad/Mayweather was far too good and no amount of biased UK hype was going to sway me. The comments coming from the 'football crowd' that were leaving for Hamburg seemed to be that they all thought Haye was a shoe-in. That's a reflection on their boxing knowledge but also on the fact that in the UK Haye was being made out to be better/have more of a chance than he actually had.

With Hatton, we were told his intensity/aggression would be the key to the door, and with Haye 'speed' was the catchword. In both cases it was simply being a much better boxer that won on the day.

I have a real problem with the way Sky etc do the build-up for these events. Yes, it's their job to make sales and hype fights but there will come a time when people give up watching after the 15th time in a row they've been told they are getting a 'could go any way fight of the year' that turns out to be a completely one-sided damp squib. We have to look at the long term health of the sport as well as the current money made.

[Dioufy]

For Haye to win, he needed to get under that jab and throw the big right, and catch Wlad stepping forward. So much easier said than done. Wlad was just awesome to watch for purists like us, but boring as hell. Arrrgghhhh, I feel much like I did after the Hatton/Mayweather fight.

Maybe you feel like that because this fight was built up in the UK exactly like Hatton/Mayweather.

Not quite. I remember before the Hatton fight I was tempted to put money on 4/7 for Mayweather, but my conscience wouldn't allow it. Hatton was well up against it, whereas I totally believed Haye would knock him out, and I was convinced of that for years. It's just a shame it didn't happen.

:(

[mkirkhope]

For Haye to win, he needed to get under that jab and throw the big right, and catch Wlad stepping forward. So much easier said than done. Wlad was just awesome to watch for purists like us, but boring as hell. Arrrgghhhh, I feel much like I did after the Hatton/Mayweather fight.

Maybe you feel like that because this fight was built up in the UK exactly like Hatton/Mayweather.

Not quite. I remember before the Hatton fight I was tempted to put money on 4/7 for Mayweather, but my conscience wouldn't allow it. Hatton was well up against it, whereas I totally believed Haye would knock him out, and I was convinced of that for years. It's just a shame it didn't happen.

:(

Do you feel that if you were from a neutral country and watched the buildup outside of the UK, you would have still thought Haye KO? Bit of a wierd question I know (and am not questioning your logic or opinion) but am genuinely interested in the level of effect that the hype-machine that is our sports media has on people.

[Dioufy]

Maybe you feel like that because this fight was built up in the UK exactly like Hatton/Mayweather.

Not quite. I remember before the Hatton fight I was tempted to put money on 4/7 for Mayweather, but my conscience wouldn't allow it. Hatton was well up against it, whereas I totally believed Haye would knock him out, and I was convinced of that for years. It's just a shame it didn't happen.

:(

Do you feel that if you were from a neutral country and watched the buildup outside of the UK, you would have still thought Haye KO? Bit of a wierd question I know (and am not questioning your logic or opinion) but am genuinely interested in the level of effect that the hype-machine that is our sports media has on people.

Haye was fast, small, mobile and powerful. Regardless of where I was from, I'd believe Haye would win. Wlad fought the perfect fight - I just expected him to make one of two mistakes, but he didn't.

[Tomasino]

I have no doubt Haye's injury is genuine and I think it must have affected his performance. However, I don't think it was the decisive factor. For all his power, Haye is not a natural, come forward fighter who can advance relentlessly, cutting off the ring in the mould of a Tyson, Benn etc. He can dart in with pot shots but can't apply consistent pressure. I honestly think Chisora would have had a better chance in there last night. He is a genuine, strong heavyweight who would not have been thrown around by Wlad and he can fight effectively going forwards, rolling effectively as he does so. I really hope - if he gets past Fury - that he gets the fight with Wlad that was originally signed.

I love it when someone posts exactly what I want to say and save me some iPhone typing!

[Finn]

Personally i think haye did pretty well. He certainly didnt discrace himself in any way.

[jamesmcdonnell]

quote="Deserter"]

Imagine if he'd called it off, he would have been ripped to bits. instead he's getting ripped for losing on points.

I think he did his best. I said from the start that he wouldn't throw enough punches to win on points. I said after the first round that he didn't look right.

When I had a broken toe, it looked a lot like Haye's and I can't tell you how much effected my balance.

I couldn't see Haye's movement being unduly affected and also worth noting Rhino's point on the other thread that based on his medical experience an injection would have been more than sufficient to overcome an issue in the short-term.

I'm not having a go at Rhino, but you don't really know how it effects you til it happens to you. Even full of pain killers, my balance was still off and I was sparring atn the time, there is NO WAY that I could have boxed anywhere near my best. I'm not defending Haye, I'm just talking from experience.[/quote]

Rhino is talking about a cortisol injection, which would TOTALLY kill the pain.

American footballers often play through terrible injuries in this manner, the injections just completely numb the area.

Haye didn't lose because of his bloody toe, he was just nowhere good enough. I thought it was a pretty abject performance. Haye now has made excuses twice for piss poor performances, once against valuev, and now Wlad. The constant complaining to the referee was pretty pathetic as well.

All in all, Haye is a great salesman, and not much more, certainly not at heavyweight.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Changing tack somewhat...

I felt the most telling comments post-fight last night were from Adam Booth, who said *David is a cruiserweight*.

It would be a great shame were David to retire on such a low, and so why not go back down to cruiserweight, a weight where (i) he wouldn't be fighting men much bigger and taller than him; and (ii) by common consent, he fought very differently, much more entertainingly, and dominated in a way he will always struggle to do at the higher weight?

At cruiserweight it would be great to see him face Huck...Maybe Adamek could be tempted to move down...? There may not be a long list of attractive opponents, but then again, David constantly tells us he's retiring soon.

Although at cruiserweight I don't think they'd be queuing up to face him...

Haye will retire. He's made his money. He can pursue his acting 'career.' Lets hope he gives it a better go than he did last night.

[jeej]

Last night I was disapointed and angry, but now I've had some sleep and thought about it some more, I feel a bit differently,

Haye proved that there is nothing at all wrong with his chin.

Wladimir fought a great fight and won fair and square.

I didnt like Haye complaining to the referee.

With regards to the toe. I've broke the little toe on my left foot twice and I can vouch for what a problem it would cause David.

Haye showed a lot of guts by not calling off the fight.

I was very suprised that no one was rocked by any of the punches.

Haye should fight Arreola in Vegas next.

Fair play to you for posting that. Was far too many people last night talking as if David Haye was actually Audley Harrison or something.

[RJP]

Some major BS being spouted here by people who are obviously disappointed.

Two points:

1) I've broken my toe and it bloody killed. I couldn't walk on it for three days as whenever I put any weight on it as if I did I got agonising pain shooting halfway up my leg.
I also couldn't get a shoe on because of the pain/swelling.

2) all this talk of not trying is nonsense and, apart from anything else, totally overlooks the quality and size advantage of the opponent. My personal opinion was that David's best (perhaps only) chance was to get straight in and mug Wlad early - but that would've been a definite 'shit or bust' approach. Once that didn't materialise, it seemed to me that the tactic was to frustrate Wlad by making him miss and try to draw him onto counters - that tactic didn't work simply because Wlad is a big man with good feet, poise and a deadly accurate jab.

Haye looked clumsy because he was having to over-reach to try and land shots and, hence, even when he did land they never really had much leverage/weight behind them. The fact that he was always punching upwards didn't help much either.

Haye was never gonna be able to stand toe to toe with Wlad because of Wlad's size and reach advantages and the fact that, with his laser accurate left jab and clubbing overhand right, he'd have been picked off quickly and easily.

Haye couldn't have fought for sustained periods on the inside because of Wlad's obvious physical superiority; he'd have been mauled and had his strength sapped quickly.

Haye may well have envisaged being able to make Wlad miss (which he succeeded in doing) and moving quickly in and out to land his shots. However, until he got into the ring I don't think he fully appreciated the effectiveness and accuracy of THAT jab.

I think in the cold light of day, Haye did the best that he could under the circumstances. He simply didn't have the tools to negate Klit's physical advantages and the issues with his balance, reach and the toe prevented him from landing any potentially game changing shots.

I don't agree with all this stuff about Wlad winning simply because he's bigger. I think that's a simplistic view and one that takes away from what Wlad brought to the table last night. Size played a part, but for me the reason Wlad won was that he is a much better boxer and has much more sound technique. Several people I really respect in the sport thought Haye had a chance (I didn't) and they wouldn't have thought that if the size barrier was an insurmountable obstacle.

I think that Klitschko's speed, foot movement and ring intelligence are underrated and people often just resort to the 'he's too big and leans on you' party line. I don't think the weight advantage really made a difference in the fight at all. Haye was very rarely close enough for Wlad to lean on him and most of the times Haye hit the deck it was through embarrassing diving and not because he'd been leant on by a much heavier man.

Read my post again, I didn't say it was purely down to size (although it's impossible to overlook his physical advantages). The accuracy of his jab and the threat of that big left were the real advantages. Haye never figured out a way to get inside this to throw any meaningful shots and was left over-reaching clumsily.

The best man won.

[nobby_nobbins]

Do we know how Haye broke his toe? I reckon Adam Booth stepped on it with those Gary Glitter platforms he's been wearing lately.

[Grilling Machine]

That he hung around to till the end is to his credit.

Agree with this. Hats off for that. I thought he'd fold in frustration after a somewhat lively opening.

It's hard to criticise another when they're the one taking the shots, but there's also their character. We're more forgiving of game fighters who take a beating than clever ones who don't. It's no bother for us to tell Haye he should've rolled like Tyson - we can all see that, but you wouldn't be urging him in if he was a family member. The real damage came from his talk. Yeah, the fight needed promotion, but the severed heads was too much; that didn't appeal to many long-term fans.

Instead of apologising post-fight, he's hurting. It's understandable. Supposing he did get that rematch and win: he'd return to the bragging. He didn't have an excuse after the Thompson loss because he was low-profile. The same thing happened to Hatton after Mayweather - the Press and forums descended, their spotlights blinding and cruel. Revenge isn't redemption. Floyd Patterson lost, but he was never humbled.

I have a real problem with the way Sky etc do the build-up for these events.

Yes! In the '90s pay-per-view was supported by great talent. It was obvious there was money to be made. But it's a transient business model for that reason. I think it's been the greatest killer of boxing in the UK. Every time casual fans pay for a disappointment a few more give up. Had this fight been on ITV, its lack of spectacle wouldn't have done any long-term damage to the sport.

[Autobarn]

haye and booth need another point of view, another voice. they have done some impressive things (groves-degale, haye's title wins at cruiser and heavy). but they are also smarmy gits who have shortchanged many fans & have become pretty grotesque and offensive of recent. they are getting some right stick along with the money, and they should hopefully listen, rather than being in their own little world. there is something in-bred about haye's punch delivery. he is atalented athlete, but his right hand is shocking, he always falls forward & it isn't straight enough.. his left hook is also poor, as he doesn't turn it over properly. the tactics were weird and misfired. haye and booth cannot rule the univrse - he should hook up with someone else who can steer them in the right direction. a new trainer for starters. a brutal realist kind of trainer

it was kind of like a naz-barrera fight again.

as to wlad. one of the most technically impressive heavyweights of all time. impressive use of space and distance, etc. and surely the 2nd most successful of the "super heavyweights" - after only lewis. on the other hand, he will not trade punches, even vs basically a elite cruiserweight (haye often fights as though he doesn't feel he is aheavyweight). i don't like to see a fighter who will only be willing to jab if he is sure the other guy cannot punch back! i don't like the prodding with the left - all those advantages in height, reach, weight, and he isn't confident enough to pump the jab out? - nor do i appreciate the "shrink wrap" technique up close. hugely frustrating and effective, but is that what the heavyweights are supposed to be about? i want PUNCHES, hard ones, and mor eof 'em.

good year or 2 from wlad, with wins over talented guys like haye, chambers, and so on.

[Autobarn]

Changing tack somewhat...

I felt the most telling comments post-fight last night were from Adam Booth, who said *David is a cruiserweight*.

It would be a great shame were David to retire on such a low, and so why not go back down to cruiserweight, a weight where (i) he wouldn't be fighting men much bigger and taller than him; and (ii) by common consent, he fought very differently, much more entertainingly, and dominated in a way he will always struggle to do at the higher weight?

At cruiserweight it would be great to see him face Huck...Maybe Adamek could be tempted to move down...? There may not be a long list of attractive opponents, but then again, David constantly tells us he's retiring soon.

Although at cruiserweight I don't think they'd be queuing up to face him...

the thing is, if you add togerther haye's cruiserweight title fight purses, and then add together his heaavyweight purses, it'd become clear that you can make far more money with the big boys. he will never go back down to cruiser.

[Autobarn]

back to kamikaze japanee sluggers, aggressive thais & korean bantamweights...

fvcking heavyweights! thye can spoil your whole day.

[Grilling Machine]

Billy Graham, Enzo Cal, Adam Booth. It's always hard to tell. There was a lack of evolution in all cases other than Joe Calzaghe, and that seemed to be self-taught. But who's to say their initial input wasn't valuable? The only time we know trainers are great is when they take on rough-around-the-edges contenders and mould them into champions.

[Autobarn]

there was a bad omen just before the fiht.

haye wrapped in foil.

i hoped to god he was not going to be a turkey.

[DIRT SUGAR]

It's simple. After all the talk Haye didn't even take Klitschko out of his comfort zone. His injury? Well that's just bad luck and he took a risk by carrying on and it didn't work out. Just show a bit of humility, say you had to talk crap to try to get Klitschko out of his normal disciplined routine but it backfired.

Haye wasn't humiliated, just outpointed. I thought he was in for a beating, toe injury or no toe injury. He lost to a guy who's much bigger and very good at getting the job done with the minimum of fuss.

Haye set himself up for a big fall and now's the time for him to show he can regroup and come back, or do as he says and get out while he's got money in the bank and his faculties. At the end of the day, it's a tough, tough game and there's no disgrace losing to a guy who's so much bigger. We can all come on here and say he was a disappointment, but Haye just didn't have it on the night, irrelevant of all the talk and Klitschko deserves some praise for making it a relatively comfortable night's work. The guy isn't an exciting heavyweight champ, but he certainly knows how to get the job done and he did it again and the guy suffered two bad knockouts but has made it look easy since then. Now that's character.

[Cyclops]

Some major BS being spouted here by people who are obviously disappointed.

Two points:

1) I've broken my toe and it bloody killed. I couldn't walk on it for three days as whenever I put any weight on it as if I did I got agonising pain shooting halfway up my leg.
I also couldn't get a shoe on because of the pain/swelling.

2) all this talk of not trying is nonsense and, apart from anything else, totally overlooks the quality and size advantage of the opponent. My personal opinion was that David's best (perhaps only) chance was to get straight in and mug Wlad early - but that would've been a definite 'shit or bust' approach. Once that didn't materialise, it seemed to me that the tactic was to frustrate Wlad by making him miss and try to draw him onto counters - that tactic didn't work simply because Wlad is a big man with good feet, poise and a deadly accurate jab.

Haye looked clumsy because he was having to over-reach to try and land shots and, hence, even when he did land they never really had much leverage/weight behind them. The fact that he was always punching upwards didn't help much either.
Don't really feel like posting anything detailed because I'm so bummed out about almost everything about last night, but after reading the entire thread I would say RJP is the one who articulates my thoughts better than anybody else. I agree.
Haye was never gonna be able to stand toe to toe with Wlad because of Wlad's size and reach advantages and the fact that, with his laser accurate left jab and clubbing overhand right, he'd have been picked off quickly and easily.

Haye couldn't have fought for sustained periods on the inside because of Wlad's obvious physical superiority; he'd have been mauled and had his strength sapped quickly.

Haye may well have envisaged being able to make Wlad miss (which he succeeded in doing) and moving quickly in and out to land his shots. However, until he got into the ring I don't think he fully appreciated the effectiveness and accuracy of THAT jab.

I think in the cold light of day, Haye did the best that he could under the circumstances. He simply didn't have the tools to negate Klit's physical advantages and the issues with his balance, reach and the toe prevented him from landing any potentially game changing shots.

I agree.