Hamburg: A few thoughts...

[earsjohn]

I watched Ukraine v Saudi Arabia in that stadium in Hamburg during the World cup in 2006. I remember getting the train from the City really easily and there being a long walk from the station to the stadium, but when walking with 50,000 fans from all over the place this wasn't an issue. Getting in and around the stadium was fine and while it was a long walk back to the station and then into town, it certainly didn't feel like an issue. I think it was pissing down during that game as well.

[Counter-puncher]

guys, talking about the low-ish attendance

is it possible that not that many germans turned up.....

for the very good reason that they knew 10,000 UK fans were going to be there?

[earsjohn]

I heard on the tv on the Saturday afternoon that it was 'not sold out yet' but they didn't mention figures.

Klitschko Chambers sold 51k tickets quite quickly so if the attendance is less than that then its very strange.

I said on the weigh-in thread that this fight wasn't catching fire as much as was being claimed here in the UK (and got absolutely slaughtered for that view) but I would still expect a 50k crowd at least for what Haye described as the 'biggest fight in boxing in 10 years'.

I thought it was interesting that Booth said the crowd was 75% from the UK. Given that the biggest figure I've heard for UK fans was 15,000, those numbers just don't add up.

It certainly sold well on TV here (upwards of 1m buys so the rumour mill is suggesting) and 15k travelling fans is close to extraordinary (is there a single fighter in the world who could go to a foreign country and take that many fans? I'm not counting 50k American Pacquiao fans who turn up in Texas as they've not travelled from his home country).

What is the reason for the low gate? Was Haye seen as less relevant an opponent than Chambers? Are the German fighting public starting to get bored of Klitschko fights? It's worth noting that the next Klitschko fight will be in his opponents backyard in Poland.

I agree with the TV sales and travelling fans stuff, but it maybe confirms my suspicions pre-fight that it was way over-hyped here in the UK whereas in other parts of the world it was maybe at the end of the day seen as quite a straightforward defense. There has to be a reason why 15k fans travelled from here but not many more than that would travel from their living room in Hamburg to the stadium (when they can get 51k germans for another recent defence). I've always said the fight was being made to be much bigger here than it actually was in reality (cue posts calling me an idiot from everyone!).

That would seem to indicate that Eddie Chambers is seen as a more competitive fight than Haye? Maybe i'm blinded by my Union Jack specs, but I simply can't understand that. I think it may be an indication of the start of some Klit-antipathy.

[Abbo]

There's no way the organisers shouldn't take responsibility for the welfare of their patrons by ensuring adequate transport / direction on leaving the arena. Making comparison to UK venues not laying on shuttle buses is mute, as this place was nowhere.

The "but how did they get there?" question sums up the poor thought into the logistics. There were a small number of buses shuttling people arriving in dribs and drabs. Of course at the end, EVERYONE leaves en mass. I suggest they look at the massive organisation that takes place (no doubt to notable expense) when fans leave Wembley to get on trains / tubes. It is done with massive control and discipline, to great effect.

One other thing I agree with is the option of Becks or Becks to drink. No ciders, wines etc.

[mkirkhope]

It certainly sold well on TV here (upwards of 1m buys so the rumour mill is suggesting) and 15k travelling fans is close to extraordinary (is there a single fighter in the world who could go to a foreign country and take that many fans? I'm not counting 50k American Pacquiao fans who turn up in Texas as they've not travelled from his home country).

What is the reason for the low gate? Was Haye seen as less relevant an opponent than Chambers? Are the German fighting public starting to get bored of Klitschko fights? It's worth noting that the next Klitschko fight will be in his opponents backyard in Poland.

I agree with the TV sales and travelling fans stuff, but it maybe confirms my suspicions pre-fight that it was way over-hyped here in the UK whereas in other parts of the world it was maybe at the end of the day seen as quite a straightforward defense. There has to be a reason why 15k fans travelled from here but not many more than that would travel from their living room in Hamburg to the stadium (when they can get 51k germans for another recent defence). I've always said the fight was being made to be much bigger here than it actually was in reality (cue posts calling me an idiot from everyone!).

That would seem to indicate that Eddie Chambers is seen as a more competitive fight than Haye? Maybe i'm blinded by my Union Jack specs, but I simply can't understand that. I think it may be an indication of the start of some Klit-antipathy.

Don't think Chambers would have been seen as definately more competetive, but I can see how the Germans (or other countries around the world) would see it as a very similar defence. Both cruisers, both much shorter than Wlad, both got nothing to shout about on their record really at heavy. I also remember the talk before Chambers/Wlad was all about 'Chambers early with a big shot or Wlad late or on points' which is similar to what many people thought about this fight. And the fights went a similar way (until the 12th round) also, Wlad just picking up every round with the jab pretty comfortably.

Maybe you are right about a bit of apathy creeping in, but the Germans love their boxing and you think they would have sold this out just to see a fight whether it would be an easy win or not.

I definately think without the sky sports buildup etc this was a very standard defence for Wlad and people in this country thought it was bigger than it was. I said previously on here the americans showing it as part of the buildup to a womens world cup game showed how big it is and the reaction seemed to be 'what do the americans know?'. Well I think they knew this was another boring Wlad defence. For Haye to say its boxings biggest fight for 10 years is disrespectful to the sport. Wlad said he was same as anyone else - all talk and then fought timid - and he was right.

But yea it still baffles overall me why this crowd wasn't even as big as the Chambers fight.

[SteveDow]

I know we are sounding like real moaners here but you really did have to be there to appreciate how much of a fiasco it really was. Train stations shut, no buses that I could see and minimal taxis for thousands of people in driving rain who were left in the middle of nowhere.

The argument that you should have booked a taxi in advance is ok in hindsight but in reality you don't know when the fight will definitely finish and also I'd have said it would have been very difficult to have found your taxi given the numbers of people around.

As I said before, the fans were generally very patient in what was a horrible situation.

[earsjohn]

I said previously on here the americans showing it as part of the buildup to a womens world cup game showed how big it is and the reaction seemed to be 'what do the americans know?'.

Surely that's simply a result of the fights timing - ie 2-5pm across the US, so showing it live was always going to appear as the build up to what's shown in the evening. The fact that they showed it live at all, rather than completely ignoring it or doing a delayed broadcast actually demonstrates that HBO were interested in it.

And the Womens World Cup was shown earlier in the day in ESPN, so not sure what you're actually talking about there.

[mkirkhope]

I said previously on here the americans showing it as part of the buildup to a womens world cup game showed how big it is and the reaction seemed to be 'what do the americans know?'.

Surely that's simply a result of the fights timing - ie 2-5pm across the US, so showing it live was always going to appear as the build up to what's shown in the evening. The fact that they showed it live at all, rather than completely ignoring it or doing a delayed broadcast actually demonstrates that HBO were interested in it.

And the Womens World Cup was shown earlier in the day in ESPN, so not sure what you're actually talking about there.

It wouldn't have been on at 2pm though if the Americans agreed that it was 'the biggest fight in 10 years'. And it would have been ppv. But i'm bored of making this argument - my more general point is that it wasn't as big a fight as was made out in the UK.

[TheCobra]

I know we are sounding like real moaners here but you really did have to be there to appreciate how much of a fiasco it really was. Train stations shut, no buses that I could see and minimal taxis for thousands of people in driving rain who were left in the middle of nowhere.

The argument that you should have booked a taxi in advance is ok in hindsight but in reality you don't know when the fight will definitely finish and also I'd have said it would have been very difficult to have found your taxi given the numbers of people around.

As I said before, the fans were generally very patient in what was a horrible situation.

Sounds like outside the O2 Arena after the Haye vs Maccarinelli fight. That was chaos. 4am traffic meltdown, tube broke and had to walk back to the hotel through a car tunnel that they shut for cleaning the shit that drips down from the River Thames.

[SteveDow]

I know we are sounding like real moaners here but you really did have to be there to appreciate how much of a fiasco it really was. Train stations shut, no buses that I could see and minimal taxis for thousands of people in driving rain who were left in the middle of nowhere.

The argument that you should have booked a taxi in advance is ok in hindsight but in reality you don't know when the fight will definitely finish and also I'd have said it would have been very difficult to have found your taxi given the numbers of people around.

As I said before, the fans were generally very patient in what was a horrible situation.

Sounds like outside the O2 Arena after the Haye vs Maccarinelli fight. That was chaos. 4am traffic meltdown, tube broke and had to walk back to the hotel through a car tunnel that they shut for cleaning the shit that drips down from the River Thames.

Yes, I was at that event also! Was freezing cold then but at least no rain!!

[earsjohn]

I said previously on here the americans showing it as part of the buildup to a womens world cup game showed how big it is and the reaction seemed to be 'what do the americans know?'.

Surely that's simply a result of the fights timing - ie 2-5pm across the US, so showing it live was always going to appear as the build up to what's shown in the evening. The fact that they showed it live at all, rather than completely ignoring it or doing a delayed broadcast actually demonstrates that HBO were interested in it.

And the Womens World Cup was shown earlier in the day in ESPN, so not sure what you're actually talking about there.

It wouldn't have been on at 2pm though if the Americans agreed that it was 'the biggest fight in 10 years'. And it would have been ppv. But i'm bored of making this argument - my more general point is that it wasn't as big a fight as was made out in the UK.

Not sure who said it was the biggest fight in 10 years, but the majority of the money made from this fight was in Europe so it made financial sense to have it at prime time. Showing it live in the US is better than not showing it or showing it delayed, thus it was more important than a number of previous Wlad fights that haven't had that level of coverage.

Also, and this is anecdotal, but the aftermath of the fight saw a new record level of interest on this very forum. More users online that at any other stage. This was a big fight with a large scale level of interest.

[mkirkhope]

Surely that's simply a result of the fights timing - ie 2-5pm across the US, so showing it live was always going to appear as the build up to what's shown in the evening. The fact that they showed it live at all, rather than completely ignoring it or doing a delayed broadcast actually demonstrates that HBO were interested in it.

And the Womens World Cup was shown earlier in the day in ESPN, so not sure what you're actually talking about there.

It wouldn't have been on at 2pm though if the Americans agreed that it was 'the biggest fight in 10 years'. And it would have been ppv. But i'm bored of making this argument - my more general point is that it wasn't as big a fight as was made out in the UK.

Not sure who said it was the biggest fight in 10 years, but the majority of the money made from this fight was in Europe so it made financial sense to have it at prime time. Showing it live in the US is better than not showing it or showing it delayed, thus it was more important than a number of previous Wlad fights that haven't had that level of coverage.

Also, and this is anecdotal, but the aftermath of the fight saw a new record level of interest on this very forum. More users online that at any other stage. This was a big fight with a large scale level of interest.

A Mr D Haye, on several occasions. And almost every fight is shown in the USA for free on one channel or another. ppv is the sign of importance there.

But there is no point going back and forth on this. I agree with you it was a 'big' fight, but no bigger than most other recent Wlad defences imo. This particular forum is British, and I've always said it got huge interest in this country - my point was that it failed to fully catch fire abroad, hence not selling out the stadium and being shown for free not just in USA but many other markets who have ppv. I highly doubt this fight set the record for threads etc on the current scene forum if thats what you are implying?

[foxwoods]

the rain must have taken a huge bite out of the walk-up gate....

[doctorboxing]

I agree with you it was a 'big' fight, but no bigger than most other recent Wlad defences imo.

HBO would only show a Klit fight if it was against Haye, so it was bigger than other fights out there. They weren't interested in the Chagaev fight for example.

[mkirkhope]

I agree with you it was a 'big' fight, but no bigger than most other recent Wlad defences imo.

HBO would only show a Klit fight if it was against Haye, so it was bigger than other fights out there. They weren't interested in the Chagaev fight for example.

HBO showed the Wlad vs Rahman & Thompson fights live free and plenty others. Not sure about the Peter fight - there is an HBO feed but it may have been delayed rather than live. They publicly refused to show the Chagaev fight for several reasons but have normally backed Wlad in the past.

[earsjohn]

I agree with you it was a 'big' fight, but no bigger than most other recent Wlad defences imo.

HBO would only show a Klit fight if it was against Haye, so it was bigger than other fights out there. They weren't interested in the Chagaev fight for example.

No - HBO showed the Wlad vs Rahman & Thompson fights live free and plenty others. They publicly refused to show the Chagaev fight for several reasons but have normally backed Wlad in the past.

Yet HBO didn't show the more recent Wlad v (US fighter) Eddie Chambers or Wlad v Sam Peter. Recent history suggests that HBO aren't interested in the heavies or Wlad, yet they showed Haye v Wlad live. That suggests that it was a bigger deal to them than Chambers or Peter.

[earsjohn]

I agree with you it was a 'big' fight, but no bigger than most other recent Wlad defences imo.

HBO would only show a Klit fight if it was against Haye, so it was bigger than other fights out there. They weren't interested in the Chagaev fight for example.

HBO showed the Wlad vs Rahman & Thompson fights live free and plenty others. Not sure about the Peter fight - there is an HBO feed but it may have been delayed rather than live. They publicly refused to show the Chagaev fight for several reasons but have normally backed Wlad in the past.

Wlad v Sam Peter II was on ESPN3.com, hardly evidence that it was a bigger fight in the US than Wlad v Haye.

[mkirkhope]

HBO would only show a Klit fight if it was against Haye, so it was bigger than other fights out there. They weren't interested in the Chagaev fight for example.

No - HBO showed the Wlad vs Rahman & Thompson fights live free and plenty others. They publicly refused to show the Chagaev fight for several reasons but have normally backed Wlad in the past.

Yet HBO didn't show the more recent Wlad v (US fighter) Eddie Chambers or Wlad v Sam Peter. Recent history suggests that HBO aren't interested in the heavies or Wlad, yet they showed Haye v Wlad live. That suggests that it was a bigger deal to them than Chambers or Peter.

Tell me where I mentioned Chambers in my post.

I said they showed Rahman and Thompson live. The original post said they would 'only show Klit if he was against Haye' and I was responding to that. Just because they didn't show the Chagaev fight doesn't mean they've put a ban on showing any other fights apart from Haye. They've shown him many times in the past and have said they would do so again (without mentioning Haye). You are talking as if being on free in the states on a cable channel makes this a huge fight, which is totally ridiculous. They show everything there.

I said it was not much different to 'most' recent defenses and I stand by that.

[mkirkhope]

HBO would only show a Klit fight if it was against Haye, so it was bigger than other fights out there. They weren't interested in the Chagaev fight for example.

HBO showed the Wlad vs Rahman & Thompson fights live free and plenty others. Not sure about the Peter fight - there is an HBO feed but it may have been delayed rather than live. They publicly refused to show the Chagaev fight for several reasons but have normally backed Wlad in the past.

Wlad v Sam Peter II was on ESPN3.com, hardly evidence that it was a bigger fight in the US than Wlad v Haye.

Completely putting words in my mouth again that I haven't said. Please point out where I said the Peter fight was BIGGER than the Haye one. Don't just make up things I've said to suit your argument.

Anyway, if you want to go down that road, I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN3 had more viewers for sports than HBO. HBO is losing its grip as the home of boxing and all ESPN channels over there get absolutely huge viewing figures.

Anyway, why don't you present some facts for a change: If Haye was the biggest fight for a long time in the division and was massive then show me some evidence from outside the UK. Not made up stuff about traffic on this forum but actual facts.

I've stated it was given similar exposure on tv as "most" (but not all) of Wlad's defenses and therefore makes it a similar fight. You seem to be making up random facts to argue the other way. I've still seem no hard evidence that outside the UK this was the biggest fight for ages.

I've seen evidence to prove it wasn't: the stadium didn't come close to selling out, it wasn't ppv in any of the traditional boxing markets, etc.

And the Peter fight WAS shown on HBO. Look it up on the internet. It may not have been live (as I've already stated) but there are plenty HBO feeds of the fight out there. Have a look.

Once again: I have NEVER said this was a smaller fight that other Wlad fights, I've just said that it wasn't much bigger (and certainly wasn't the biggest fight for a long time).

[earsjohn]

HBO showed the Wlad vs Rahman & Thompson fights live free and plenty others. Not sure about the Peter fight - there is an HBO feed but it may have been delayed rather than live. They publicly refused to show the Chagaev fight for several reasons but have normally backed Wlad in the past.

Wlad v Sam Peter II was on ESPN3.com, hardly evidence that it was a bigger fight in the US than Wlad v Haye.

Completely putting words in my mouth again that I haven't said. Please point out where I said the Peter fight was BIGGER than the Haye one. Don't just make up things I've said to suit your argument.

Anyway, if you want to go down that road, I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN3 had more viewers for sports than HBO. HBO is losing its grip as the home of boxing and all ESPN channels over there get absolutely huge viewing figures.

Anyway, why don't you present some facts for a change: If Haye was the biggest fight for a long time in the division and was massive then show me some evidence from outside the UK. Not made up stuff about traffic on this forum but actual facts.

I've stated it was given similar exposure on tv as "most" (but not all) of Wlad's defenses and therefore makes it a similar fight. You seem to be making up random facts to argue the other way. I've still seem no hard evidence that outside the UK this was the biggest fight for ages.

I've seen evidence to prove it wasn't: the stadium didn't come close to selling out, it wasn't ppv in any of the traditional boxing markets, etc.

And the Peter fight WAS shown on HBO. Look it up on the internet. It may not have been live (as I've already stated) but there are plenty HBO feeds of the fight out there. Have a look.

Once again: I have NEVER said this was a smaller fight that other Wlad fights, I've just said that it wasn't much bigger (and certainly wasn't the biggest fight for a long time).

I used the Chambers and Peter II fights as they were the most recent Wlad fights. You used the Thompson and Rahman fights to illustrate your point. So rather than just using selective history to support one side of a point you are trying to make, I have provided fuller detail to support the counter argument.

The fact is that Wlads two most recent fights (not two fights selected from 3 years ago.) were not shown live by HBO. The Haye fight was. The Chambers fight was not shown live anywhere in the US. The Haye fight was. Chambers, an American fighter against the number 1 heavyweight in the world was so unappetising that his domestic market didn't pick it up. The Peter fight was shown on ESPN3.com, not HBO.

The Boxrec stats I referred to (whilst noting that it was anecdotal evidence) are the overall forum traffic stats and show that "Most users ever online was 3070 on Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:27 pm". That's for the site as a whole, not just the UK forum. More than for any other Wlad fight, more than for Manny or for Floyd. Anecdotal, but indicative.

This was the biggest heavyweight fight, probably since Lewis v Tyson and definitely since Lewis v Vitali.

[jamesmcdonnell]

So so so glad I didn't waste my time and money going to see this pish.

Bring on Carl Froch, a fighter who never dissapoints fans, win or lose.

The dirrel fight was worst than this one IMO.

There's not a lot in it either way. The Valuev fight was actually worse than this one.

[ashedward]

I think the reason that it didn`t sell aswell in Germany as some of the other Klit fights was the ticket prices, which was allot more expensive then what they are used to,especialy for decent seats,us Brits are used to paying over the odds for big fights.I went to wlad - Chagaev fight in gelsenkishen and that was much more well run i thought.

[mkirkhope]

Wlad v Sam Peter II was on ESPN3.com, hardly evidence that it was a bigger fight in the US than Wlad v Haye.

Completely putting words in my mouth again that I haven't said. Please point out where I said the Peter fight was BIGGER than the Haye one. Don't just make up things I've said to suit your argument.

Anyway, if you want to go down that road, I wouldn't be surprised if ESPN3 had more viewers for sports than HBO. HBO is losing its grip as the home of boxing and all ESPN channels over there get absolutely huge viewing figures.

Anyway, why don't you present some facts for a change: If Haye was the biggest fight for a long time in the division and was massive then show me some evidence from outside the UK. Not made up stuff about traffic on this forum but actual facts.

I've stated it was given similar exposure on tv as "most" (but not all) of Wlad's defenses and therefore makes it a similar fight. You seem to be making up random facts to argue the other way. I've still seem no hard evidence that outside the UK this was the biggest fight for ages.

I've seen evidence to prove it wasn't: the stadium didn't come close to selling out, it wasn't ppv in any of the traditional boxing markets, etc.

And the Peter fight WAS shown on HBO. Look it up on the internet. It may not have been live (as I've already stated) but there are plenty HBO feeds of the fight out there. Have a look.

Once again: I have NEVER said this was a smaller fight that other Wlad fights, I've just said that it wasn't much bigger (and certainly wasn't the biggest fight for a long time).

I used the Chambers and Peter II fights as they were the most recent Wlad fights. You used the Thompson and Rahman fights to illustrate your point. So rather than just using selective history to support one side of a point you are trying to make, I have provided fuller detail to support the counter argument.

The fact is that Wlads two most recent fights (not two fights selected from 3 years ago.) were not shown live by HBO. The Haye fight was. The Chambers fight was not shown live anywhere in the US. The Haye fight was. Chambers, an American fighter against the number 1 heavyweight in the world was so unappetising that his domestic market didn't pick it up. The Peter fight was shown on ESPN3.com, not HBO.

The Boxrec stats I referred to (whilst noting that it was anecdotal evidence) are the overall forum traffic stats and show that "Most users ever online was 3070 on Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:27 pm". That's for the site as a whole, not just the UK forum. More than for any other Wlad fight, more than for Manny or for Floyd. Anecdotal, but indicative.

This was the biggest heavyweight fight, probably since Lewis v Tyson and definitely since Lewis v Vitali.

Again, what makes it that? The fact that it got more tv coverage than a Chagaev fight does by no means make it massive. Take away all the sky tv hype and what did Haye bring that the best of the other challengers haven't provided in terms of a challenge?

I'm not really aware of anyone outside the UK saying this is the biggest heavyweight contest for 8 or 9 years. If it was genuinely the biggest event in that division for 9 years would the crowd not have been at least on par with the Chambers fight?

We'll have to wait and see the figures. If it was viewed a lot less in many markets that over defences by either brother then it hasn't been the biggest fight. By all accounts it is expected to be "close to the highest European viewing figures" for a Klit fight.

You can argue that Haye did slightly more than some of Wlad's recent challengers but in the cold light of day he didn't offer anything different. Take away the t-shirt, the taunts, the huge british fanbase, the bravado and it was a very one-sided event.

It certainly didn't light a fire under the HW division. In fact it may have put out any lingering flames.

[SteveDow]

I think the reason that it didn`t sell aswell in Germany as some of the other Klit fights was the ticket prices, which was allot more expensive then what they are used to,especialy for decent seats,us Brits are used to paying over the odds for big fights.I went to wlad - Chagaev fight in gelsenkishen and that was much more well run i thought.

I think that's correct. For the original fight between Haye and Wlad in 2009, the tickets were much cheaper. I think ringsides were 650 Euros whereas here they were 1500 and lower tier were only about 50 Euros compared with 200 here.

This combined with the fact that flights and hotel rooms were extremely expensive put a lot of people off. Knowing what I know now about the weather and the way the fight went, I wouldn't have bothered even though the weekend in general was fun as I reckon I spent about £1700 all in as I was paying for me and the mrs which doubled the cost.

[mkirkhope]

I think the reason that it didn`t sell aswell in Germany as some of the other Klit fights was the ticket prices, which was allot more expensive then what they are used to,especialy for decent seats,us Brits are used to paying over the odds for big fights.I went to wlad - Chagaev fight in gelsenkishen and that was much more well run i thought.

That's a good point.

I'm on record as saying I don't think fight was 'much bigger' than other recent Klit defences but I was stunned that the stadium wasn't close to selling out - these prices would explain that.