lets give Wlad some credit

[LeedsLad]

Haye just isn't on the level of Wladimir Klitschko, simple as that. It's nothing to be ashamed of, of course.

Size isn't particularly relevant. With their respective styles, Klitschko at 6'3'' and Haye at 6'6'' - Klitschko would still win.

Haye simply isn't experienced enough against top quality fighters at heavyweight due to inactivity - partly caused no doubt by being paid a lot of money which may have stemmed his hunger somewhat..... and has plenty of flaws in his game that top quality fighters like Klitschko can expose.

He went the scenic route at heavy rather than making his way through the fringe contenders and so on, which of course was his choice, but ultimately may have counted towards his downfall.

Still, the wonga will ease his pain in that badly broken toe of his.

Get out of here, Wladimir would have had about 6 losses by now if he was 6ft 3 and had 3/4 inches less reach. People are going waaaay over the top now, next they'll be saying he's a top 10 ATG Heavyweight!

Perhaps he would, but he wouldn't lose to a fighter like David Haye.

Haye's output is simply too low, we've seen that in nearly all his fights - against Harrison he didn't let his hands go, against Ruiz he was a bit too cautious too. At cruiserweight he threw plenty of punches, he kinda morphed into a different type of fighter at HW, certainly a less entertaining one, that's for sure.

Of course Wlad isn't top 10 material, he's got too many flaws and wouldn't be the champion in many (if any) other eras. But he's incredibly effective and more than capable of dominating for a further five years, perhaps more unless someone special comes along.

British fans invested a lot in David Haye, and I can understand they feel disappointed that it didn't all go to plan.

[Jon Saxon]

Size isn't particularly relevant. With their respective styles, Klitschko at 6'3'' and Haye at 6'6'' - Klitschko would still win.

.

Have you lost your fukin mind?
Without the reach and legs spread stance due to height Wlad wouldnt have done shit if he was 6'3.
He would have been another Gurov, Euro champ at best.

Have would owned him, hell herbie hide would have smashed the shizer outa him.

This is the dumbest post ever on here and I trully mean this.

[dempseyfire]

Klitschko threw a lot of right hands? WHat fight were you watching?

This fight sucked and neither man's performance should be commended. Both were scared of the other, but at least Wlad threw a consistent jab, whereas Haye tried his 5 punches per round strategy that (barely) worked vs Valuev b/c the aging giant doesn't throw a lot either.

Haye is certainly nowhere near being a great heavyweight. I think the Holyfield that lost to Toney would've given Haye all he could handle for crying out loud. A Trevor Berbick-level heavyweight would own Haye via strength and pressure. Haye is actually lucky Klitschko is so scared to committ b/c of his weak chin, his brother wouldn't have been so tentative and broken David in half.

[Finn]

It seems all these threads are blaming Haye for under performing but for my money Wlad put on his best performence to date. I personal thought Wlad would try to hold centre ring, not try to force the fight, sit back on his jab and not open up until Haye was tired . However Wlad came forward, close the space down,forced Haye onto the backfoot, showed good upper body movement and was not scared to throw punches (i havent seen him throw so many right hands in a bout 5 years). His jab was excellent through out the fight and IMO he was always looking for the KO right from the off, so for me Haye was beaten by a superior fighter

David Haye is a good small Heavyweight but Wlad is an Excellent big one who would give any boxer from any era a run for their money

Agreed!

Id say it was the other way round - apart from the sizes.

[IRLangmaid25]

Lennox Lewis would've beaten any prime-for-prime heavyweight with the possible exception of Larry Holmes, who may have outscored him. Wladimir would not be out of his depth in that class, though. He's better than a lot of people think. I certainly think he's better than David Haye thought. His style is very deceptive as is his speed; he has fast hands and fast reflexes given his size. It's easy to dismiss his legacy because of his defeats and I accept that Corrie mugged him, but Corrie was a grade A banger with a big set of Afrikaaner balls and these things happen (Lewis vs Rahman and McCall).

And you forget that Corrie Sanders was a Southpaw too who knew that his best chance to defeat Wladimir K was to jump on him early so he could not establish his jab and work the angles to try and pull apart Wladmir K's defences to land the shots to put him down.

[crusader]

Lennox Lewis would've beaten any prime-for-prime heavyweight with the possible exception of Larry Holmes, who may have outscored him. Wladimir would not be out of his depth in that class, though. He's better than a lot of people think. I certainly think he's better than David Haye thought. His style is very deceptive as is his speed; he has fast hands and fast reflexes given his size. It's easy to dismiss his legacy because of his defeats and I accept that Corrie mugged him, but Corrie was a grade A banger with a big set of Afrikaaner balls and these things happen (Lewis vs Rahman and McCall).

Don't say this in the "Boxers of the Past" section of the forum. They will crucify you for even suggesting that Wlad could be competitive with boxers from different eras.

[davie]

Haye just isn't on the level of Wladimir Klitschko, simple as that. It's nothing to be ashamed of, of course.

Size isn't particularly relevant. With their respective styles, Klitschko at 6'3'' and Haye at 6'6'' - Klitschko would still win.

i'm a great believer in giving klitschko all the credit he deserves. he's a great heavywieght who has over come having a glass chin to develope a near impregnable style of fighting. but that style is dependant on having hieght, reach and wieght advantage. not knocking him for being big, but he would not be nearly as good with out the physical advantages he has.

it's like saying amir khan would still be great without his hand speed. it's frankly a ridiculous argument.

[frankgreaves]

Haye just isn't on the level of Wladimir Klitschko, simple as that. It's nothing to be ashamed of, of course.

Size isn't particularly relevant. With their respective styles, Klitschko at 6'3'' and Haye at 6'6'' - Klitschko would still win.

i'm a great believer in giving klitschko all the credit he deserves. he's a great heavywieght who has over come having a glass chin to develope a near impregnable style of fighting. but that style is dependant on having hieght, reach and wieght advantage. not knocking him for being big, but he would not be nearly as good with out the physical advantages he has.

it's like saying amir khan would still be great without his hand speed. it's frankly a ridiculous argument.

to say any fighter wouldn't be as good without their particular physical attributes is ridiculous!! would Clay / Ali have been the same without speed? would Holyfield have been a great without that chin? would Tyson (before the shite in his life) have been the same if he couldn't punch? the answer is NO!! Wlad is a class fighter who makes the most of the physical attributes he has! he's footwork is fantastic, jab is probably the best since Holmes, I'd agree that he doesn't have much variety in his work but he doesn't need to have to get the job done! I'd say that shows his class rather that others limitations. I honestly can't see how the likes of Frazier / Forman / norton etc etc would've got anywhere near him, even more modern heavies like bowe & holy would've struggled against a man with those physical advantages, the man is an athlete full stop. class fighter, CLASS.

[LeedsLad]

Haye just isn't on the level of Wladimir Klitschko, simple as that. It's nothing to be ashamed of, of course.

Size isn't particularly relevant. With their respective styles, Klitschko at 6'3'' and Haye at 6'6'' - Klitschko would still win.

i'm a great believer in giving klitschko all the credit he deserves. he's a great heavywieght who has over come having a glass chin to develope a near impregnable style of fighting. but that style is dependant on having hieght, reach and wieght advantage. not knocking him for being big, but he would not be nearly as good with out the physical advantages he has.

it's like saying amir khan would still be great without his hand speed. it's frankly a ridiculous argument.

I don't dispute that he wouldn't be as good.

All I said in my OP was that he'd still be more than good enough to take care of fighters like Haye. And anyone else he's faced in the past seven years.

It's his height and reach that allow him to fight in the way he does, and I think I'm crediting him here by saying that he'd find a way to win on (shall we say) a more even playing field.

[LeedsLad]

Size isn't particularly relevant. With their respective styles, Klitschko at 6'3'' and Haye at 6'6'' - Klitschko would still win.

.

Have you lost your fukin mind?
Without the reach and legs spread stance due to height Wlad wouldnt have done shit if he was 6'3.
He would have been another Gurov, Euro champ at best.

Have would owned him, hell herbie hide would have smashed the shizer outa him.

This is the dumbest post ever on here and I trully mean this.

Dumbest post ever apart from any of yours?

Haye just isn't on that level as I've said. He lacks the fundamentals that Wlad has - i.e. the jab, the range of power shots (which granted Wlad could put together better at times) and footwork that allows him to make the opponent miss and still stay in range.

Haye is a gunslinger, that at HW has been reluctant to pull the trigger.

You really need to give Wlad the credit he deserves and stop competing with Steve Bunce for the #1 David Haye fanboy prize.

[Counter-puncher]

the thing that impressed me most about Wlad, apart from the stuff I knew he did well anyway (it didn't surprise me that his footwork enabled him to consistently dictate the range to Haye):

his reflexes, on defence, were much better than I expected. he was able to slip punches and keep his hands relatively low without taking a great deal.

[mkirkhope]

Disagree 110% Mark,

Haye is a far better fighter than Wlad.
He is simply to small, its a great Heavyweight against a very good 21st century Super heavy.
That said a prime Holy would have walked though Wlad and chinned him, Holy had the chin to do it, Haye does not.

Haye beats ANY man his own size or smaller.

Disagree 110% with this.

I don't think Haye is technically a top fighter at all, and certainly not as good as Wlad.
And is having a good chin not part of being a good boxer?
And when you say any man his size or smaller is this currently or in history? Don't agree either way. I think Hopkins would beat him out of the currents (at cruiser - unless you are just talking heavy) and could come up with an endless list from history.
Overall, I don't believe from what Haye has shown in the HW division (ie not much) that you can call him a 'great Heavyweight'.

Anyway all these height arguments about Haye are tiring - If you want the fame and money of the division (which he does) then height can't be an excuse. If you are good enough you are tall enough.

Joe Frazier gave away 4 inches to Ali and I wont go through the countless other wins in the division by guys much smaller than their opponent.

Sorry mate I just looked at my initial post it and was rude I appoligise (im stuck at home in pain with a fucked up foot and frustrated) same for 'Alba' I should think before I post sometimes.

However I do feel strongly that If wlad was 6.2/3 he wouldnt even be in the world picture.

Haye was simply too small but has the most talent for his weight and height in the world today.

Hopkins would have got ko'ed on Satuirday night.
I believe fat arse Toney (if in shape) could get under Wlad and mess him up, not saying he would win but he would have done better than most.

Haye hardly had a amrk on him yet look at Wlad's "pizza face":-)

I honestly cant believe that you think that a guyt that Joe Calzaghe beat would beat the much bigger Haye?
I know you think that nard is fundametly sound but Haye would be like Pascal on growth serum not only in hieght but in speed and power.


And BTW way I challenge anyone on this forum to tell me of a better schooled heavweight fighter in history than a prime Evander Holyfield.

Apology accepted.

Haye may well be able to beat anyone his exact height or smaller in the world today but we'll never know because he wont fight top 5 HW guys to demonstrate that. And he's shown us nothing to suggest that would automatically be the case.

At his exact height or less you'd be talking about, what, Adamek, Povetkin, Chagaev, Boytsov, Chambers, Solis etc and all of the current cruisers. It's obviously a poor list compared to past HW divisions but given his performances at heavy to date, can you be 100% confident he definately beats all of those guys?

You may well be right that he has the most 'talent' of that group, but its not saying much in the grand scheme of things and until he beats some of those guys we can't even call him as good as them at HW nevermind a 'great heavyweight' like you describe him. I also think it depends what 'talent' is: Haye's wild swings may be exciting to watch but are they boxing talent in the purest sense? I think people remember his cruiser performances and automatically think he'd do that to guys his exact height at heavy - its much more complex than that imo.

As for Haye not having a mark on him, I'd suggest that's because he spent the vast majority of the fight standing about 3 paces away from Wlad. If you aren't going to engage with your opponent then it's only natural that you wont get cuts. Fraudley didn't have a single mark on him after 2 rounds of the Haye fight - doesn't mean he was doing well or proving anything at that point in the fight.

I agree my Frazier comment was flippant but I do feel the height difference on Saturday night is being described as some insurmountable physical barrier that couldn't be overcome. That isn't the case. Height difference plays a part in almost all heavyweight fights and for Haye's team to come out after the fight and say he's just too small is just more poor form from them - if it was impossible for Haye to win the fight at his height then why take the money? Would Mormecks team have come out after the Haye fight and said "David is 4 inches taller (which he is) - there is obviously nothing we could do in that situation"?

Overall, I think that Wlad and his brother are underrated (particularly in this country) and in the future we'll look back and realise what athletes they are. I think Wlad is a better fighter than Haye in almost every area, and watching the fight I even felt Wlad looked faster to the punch than Haye sometimes and his reflexes are very sharp.

Saying Wlad wouldn't be a good if he was shorter is a silly argument imo - it's like saying Haye wouldn't be as good if he was slow. But if we're going down that route then I'd say if Haye and Wlad were both 6'6" then Wlad still wins. And thats because I think he's technically the better boxer (and by quite a long way). I think you are wrong to say that if Wlad was 6'3" he wouldn't even be in the world scene.

The Klitschkos remind me a bit of Dirk Nowitzki in the NBA - he was the first 7 footer to have such impressive skills for that height. For a long time people just said 'he's 7 foot with huge arms, there is no way to defend against him' but now he's being seen as top 15 or top 20 of all time and people appreciate his skills, and that even if he was smaller he's still be a great player. He's not as exciting to watch as much shorter guys like Bryant but from a purists point of view he is an exceptional athlete. Note: I'm not saying Wlad is top 15 of all time.

Lastly, I stand by the comment that if Hopkins fought Haye at cruiser in 3 months I'd back Hopkins. Plenty people on here have said that's stupid (yourself included) but that's my opinion.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Disagree 110% Mark,

Haye is a far better fighter than Wlad.
He is simply to small, its a great Heavyweight against a very good 21st century Super heavy.
That said a prime Holy would have walked though Wlad and chinned him, Holy had the chin to do it, Haye does not.

Haye beats ANY man his own size or smaller.

Rubbish,if he was better he would have beat a bigger guy !

What shite you write, by this thinking Lewis was a better fighter than Holyfield? get the eff outa here, Holyfield was the best all rounded HW ever and he lost to Lewis.

So shut it wee baws your embarrising my country,

Holy was an overachiever at heavy. Despite the physical disadvantages, his incredible chin, stamina and combination punching skills allowed him to compete with much bigger and very good men. His first fight with Bowe was at an incredible pace. The second fight too. Holy was exceptional in every way, a true all round fighter.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

You could see the shock on Haye's face when he knew he couldn't deal with the speed of Wlad's jab and of course his ring smarts - Wlad didn't let Haye fight his fight and won it rather easily. Until Haye started moaning about his toe, I thought Haye did the best he could but was unable to deal with Wlad's handspeed, his reach, his upper body agility and his ring smarts. No shame until Haye opened his mouth - a pity.

[stujones]

It seems all these threads are blaming Haye for under performing but for my money Wlad put on his best performence to date. I personal thought Wlad would try to hold centre ring, not try to force the fight, sit back on his jab and not open up until Haye was tired . However Wlad came forward, close the space down,forced Haye onto the backfoot, showed good upper body movement and was not scared to throw punches (i havent seen him throw so many right hands in a bout 5 years). His jab was excellent through out the fight and IMO he was always looking for the KO right from the off, so for me Haye was beaten by a superior fighter

David Haye is a good small Heavyweight but Wlad is an Excellent big one who would give any boxer from any era a run for their money

I'd agree that Vitali would give any boxer from any era a run for their money just due to his granite chin and accuracy with his punches but i think even going back 10 years ago Lennox Lewis would have smashed Wlad to bits inside 6 rounds.

Yes Wlad deserves credit for being unbeaten since 2006 and coming back and rebuilding his career from big KO losses to Sanders and Brewster but it's hard to get past the fact that he throws just 2 type of punches during fights, left jab right hand.

Vitali has alot less variety to his work than Wlad IMO

[alexpaterson]

I would of liked to see Haye use feints more as Wlad's balance looked poor at times and I think feints going forward and then winging in the shots would of served him better.

[Counter-puncher]

I would of liked to see Haye use feints more as Wlad's balance looked poor at times and I think feints going forward and then winging in the shots would of served him better.

true, alex, but i think Wlad was doing the same thing with his feet as you're asking from Haye's hands, and haye was so concerned about whether the octopus-armed fecker was in range or not, with Wlad's constant edging forwards/back, that feinting to set up his own offence was too far from his mind. if that makes sense.

kindof like what i've said about Khan having a problem with joined-up thinking in the ring, except i don't think the tendency is nearly as pronounced with Haye

[dbf]

It seems all these threads are blaming Haye for under performing but for my money Wlad put on his best performence to date. I personal thought Wlad would try to hold centre ring, not try to force the fight, sit back on his jab and not open up until Haye was tired . However Wlad came forward, close the space down,forced Haye onto the backfoot, showed good upper body movement and was not scared to throw punches (i havent seen him throw so many right hands in a bout 5 years). His jab was excellent through out the fight and IMO he was always looking for the KO right from the off, so for me Haye was beaten by a superior fighter

David Haye is a good small Heavyweight but Wlad is an Excellent big one who would give any boxer from any era a run for their money

Disagree 110% Mark,

Haye is a far better fighter than Wlad.
He is simply to small, its a great Heavyweight against a very good 21st century Super heavy.
That said a prime Holy would have walked though Wlad and chinned him, Holy had the chin to do it, Haye does not.

Haye beats ANY man his own size or smaller.

Don't agree. A heavyweight that stands up to his shots and isnt gone after 3 rounds could pose Haye problems. Ruiz even had Haye backpedalling in his fight and he's old and not a know puncher.

[Dioufy]

kindof like what i've said about Khan having a problem with joined-up thinking in the ring

I fornicating love that.

[Counter-puncher]

^^^ :) thanks, i quite like the ring of it myself, like.

[Dioufy]

It's just been stolen.

[Counter-puncher]

It's just been stolen.

[SteveDow]

It will be interesting to see how Adamek performs against Vitali in September as an indicator of how difficult it is for the smaller guys to compete with the Klitschkos. My feelings are that Adamek will give it more of a go and end up being stopped but that the fight will be competitive for the first 3 or 4 rounds.

I think both Wladimir and Vitali are excellent at making the most of their strengths and using their strengths to negate their weaknesses. Wladimir does it a lot. When Wlad is hit with a good shot his natural reaction is to grab and lean on his opponent. This not only negates a weakness (his chin, by allowing him a small amount of time to recover from the shock of the punch) it also utilises a strength of his which is his heavy weight which then saps the strength of the guy he leans on.

I think the only way it is possible to beat either Klitschko at the moment is to go all out for an early stoppage. Granted this will likely result in getting knocked out yourself but attempting to outbox two technically excellent fighters who have a significant height, weight and reach advantage is doomed to fail.

[Jon Saxon]

It seems all these threads are blaming Haye for under performing but for my money Wlad put on his best performence to date. I personal thought Wlad would try to hold centre ring, not try to force the fight, sit back on his jab and not open up until Haye was tired . However Wlad came forward, close the space down,forced Haye onto the backfoot, showed good upper body movement and was not scared to throw punches (i havent seen him throw so many right hands in a bout 5 years). His jab was excellent through out the fight and IMO he was always looking for the KO right from the off, so for me Haye was beaten by a superior fighter

David Haye is a good small Heavyweight but Wlad is an Excellent big one who would give any boxer from any era a run for their money

Disagree 110% Mark,

Haye is a far better fighter than Wlad.
He is simply to small, its a great Heavyweight against a very good 21st century Super heavy.
That said a prime Holy would have walked though Wlad and chinned him, Holy had the chin to do it, Haye does not.

Haye beats ANY man his own size or smaller.

Well sorry Jon i have to beg to differ

Haye is a good fighter at cruiser weight or against lazy arsed heavies who fight at heavy because they cant make the weight anymore or any heavy that is not elite. There is a reason for the weight divisions and that was shown on saturday when a very good small man was beaten by what for me is the perfect modern heavyweight. Now when i say perfect i'm not saying Wlad is the greatest ever but he is the result of how the division has evolved and really why Haye has no place in the ring with him as it is just not fair. Wlad uses his physical advantages to their max and only an athlete who is simular to him physical and able to match him athlecticly will beat him a perfect example of this is Lennox Lewis who is like Wlad but just fair superior version.

Sorry Jon, i love Holyfield but he even at his prime would of had nightmare against Wlad as he is just to small and would of lost in a simular way to Haye. Dare i even say it, Ali would of had such physical disadvantages he to would of had a very hard time. Haye, Holyfield, Ali are all far superior boxers to Wlad but the way Wlad fights using his Physical advantages makes him a very good big man against very good small man and for me he wins. I would be interested to see a prime Holmes against Wlad but the lack of conditioningon Larrys part i feel would be the difference.

Ali, Holyfield, Tyson were all great heayweights but we are now talking Superheavy and the only fighter i see beating this version of Wlad (Stewart trained version of the last 3 years) is Lennox.


Feel free to shoot me down.

Lol Mark, with the greatest respect Wlad is shit! he only gets by on size, HE CANT EVEN THROW AN UPPERCUT have you saw him try? its laughable.
He's got no flow he's as stiff as a board and i bet fat boy toney would have scared the shit outa him.
Holy would have took 1 or 2 and gave him four back.
You think Corrie sanders or Brewster or that other geezer beat him by accident? the secret? being able to take his punches and give it back to to him. having Manny steward has taught him to fight like even more of a shitebag thats all:-)
Tyson would have got under him, Holy would have went through him, Lennox would have looked like a prime Tommy Hearns knocking him the fornicate out.
A prime Holy would have beat Lennox BTW and I also believe a past it Holy beat lennox in the rematch, the Holy of 92 with have done a 'Douglas' on Lennox.
I mean its not like wlad schooled Haye is it? hell he hardly landed anything of substance against Haye.
Haye beats anyone his own size.


HOWEVER Vitali is 'the man' not Wlad. sure Vitali's style is ugly as fuk but he's wlad's cleaner upper!!
Why is it people cant see that If Vitali fought wald he would ko him with ease?

I bet a prime southpaw Sanders beats wlad 9/10 times

[Dioufy]

It's just been stolen.

Don't make me predict another brutal KO.