ok well that wasnt the point of my post. but i didnt want to use a hevayweight twice, so i used sullivan. he did fight 75 rounds.
ON A SIDE NOTE, I READ THAT JOHN L SULLIVAN USED TO RUN 21 MILES A DAY. MAYBE HE WAS DIFFERENT FROM SOME OTHER OLD TIMERS.
Why Muhammad Ali was not the greatest
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HeavyHitters
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 619
- Joined: 12 Jun 2004, 21:48
Huh?!??
If the 2nd baseman for the Cardinals of 1975, Mike Tyson, would have taken up boxing, he would have been the greatest!
Ya know I agree he was the most hyped fighter of all time (mostly of his own doing) but he was far from being the most overated.
Please just get a hold of and watch the fight he had with Cleveland Williams. There are a few other bouts that are almost that good as well. But that one in particular is a good primer, and then watch any other Heavyweight fight you care to name and see if you feel that "overated" still applies. This guy was beyond human at his best.
The fact that one chooses to obssess with self promotion is something that should be set aside when assessing ability.
Please just get a hold of and watch the fight he had with Cleveland Williams. There are a few other bouts that are almost that good as well. But that one in particular is a good primer, and then watch any other Heavyweight fight you care to name and see if you feel that "overated" still applies. This guy was beyond human at his best.
The fact that one chooses to obssess with self promotion is something that should be set aside when assessing ability.
Your not a bad historian. Williams had put that behind him and had a few wins under his belt since that event. And no one (cept Tantum) thought it effected his performance at that event. Williams was a pretty well disciplined in his training . Big puncher too.
You make it sound like maybe that happened as he was walking in the ring or maybe sometime during the 2nd round.
I think he had his arms were chewed completely off by rotweilers as well but they appeared to have grown back by the time the fight took place.
So I suppose your saying Ali didnt really look all that good in that fight.
And really it was Williams looking bad that gave the illusion that Ali looked good. Even if it was the mummy or your mama in there Ali looked good on that day. Hell if he was shadowboxing he was awesome that day.
Some people will not be persueded and will not be confused by facts.
*lets see 2 times Liston but of course that was a washed up confused liston,
*and of course an aged archie moore
*and floyd was was just out of the nursing home both times with a bad back
*ernie terrell had ali right where he wanted him punishing his hands with his chin
*Joe Bugner was over rated though he fought competitively for decades to come
*Chuvalo was taken away by aliens right before both fights and given estrogen
*Quarry was drunk when he entered the ring
*Bonavena was suffering from hemmoroids and hernias
*2 out of 3 times Frazier was not in his prime but coulda put a whuppin on him everytime if not for that.
*Forman Lyle and Shavers, Foster were just pitty pat punchers.
*Jimmy Young, Joe Bugner, Jimmy Ellis were just was not a very good boxer technicians
Frazier.....avenged twice, Norton avenged twice, Spinks, avenged
come to think of it I should at least mention Zora Foley for fun jus cuz he was a very decent fella.
Holmes and Berbick well they just beat him up. He was at his peak when those beatings were delivered right?
This guy was not overated though I agree he was overhyped.
You make it sound like maybe that happened as he was walking in the ring or maybe sometime during the 2nd round.
I think he had his arms were chewed completely off by rotweilers as well but they appeared to have grown back by the time the fight took place.
So I suppose your saying Ali didnt really look all that good in that fight.
And really it was Williams looking bad that gave the illusion that Ali looked good. Even if it was the mummy or your mama in there Ali looked good on that day. Hell if he was shadowboxing he was awesome that day.
Some people will not be persueded and will not be confused by facts.
*lets see 2 times Liston but of course that was a washed up confused liston,
*and of course an aged archie moore
*and floyd was was just out of the nursing home both times with a bad back
*ernie terrell had ali right where he wanted him punishing his hands with his chin
*Joe Bugner was over rated though he fought competitively for decades to come
*Chuvalo was taken away by aliens right before both fights and given estrogen
*Quarry was drunk when he entered the ring
*Bonavena was suffering from hemmoroids and hernias
*2 out of 3 times Frazier was not in his prime but coulda put a whuppin on him everytime if not for that.
*Forman Lyle and Shavers, Foster were just pitty pat punchers.
*Jimmy Young, Joe Bugner, Jimmy Ellis were just was not a very good boxer technicians
Frazier.....avenged twice, Norton avenged twice, Spinks, avenged
come to think of it I should at least mention Zora Foley for fun jus cuz he was a very decent fella.
Holmes and Berbick well they just beat him up. He was at his peak when those beatings were delivered right?
This guy was not overated though I agree he was overhyped.
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Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 815
- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
That guy has been an Ali hater since I've been here...you're not going to convince him...I remember a post he made about Ali being on drugs before the Foreman fight...he could tell 'by the glassy look in his eyes' or some such shit...I could never figure out what drug would improve your chance of winning and leave your eyes 'glassy'...if you're stoned on something, you can't compete as well in anything...oh well...some people will say anything I guess...BoxBuzz wrote:Your not a bad historian. Williams had put that behind him and had a few wins under his belt since that event. And no one (cept Tantum) thought it effected his performance at that event. Williams was a pretty well disciplined in his training . Big puncher too.
You make it sound like maybe that happened as he was walking in the ring or maybe sometime during the 2nd round.
I think he had his arms were chewed completely off by rotweilers as well but they appeared to have grown back by the time the fight took place.
So I suppose your saying Ali didnt really look all that good in that fight.
And really it was Williams looking bad that gave the illusion that Ali looked good. Even if it was the mummy or your mama in there Ali looked good on that day. Hell if he was shadowboxing he was awesome that day.
Some people will not be persueded and will not be confused by facts.
*lets see 2 times Liston but of course that was a washed up confused liston,
*and of course an aged archie moore
*and floyd was was just out of the nursing home both times with a bad back
*ernie terrell had ali right where he wanted him punishing his hands with his chin
*Joe Bugner was over rated though he fought competitively for decades to come
*Chuvalo was taken away by aliens right before both fights and given estrogen
*Quarry was drunk when he entered the ring
*Bonavena was suffering from hemmoroids and hernias
*2 out of 3 times Frazier was not in his prime but coulda put a whuppin on him everytime if not for that.
*Forman Lyle and Shavers, Foster were just pitty pat punchers.
*Jimmy Young, Joe Bugner, Jimmy Ellis were just was not a very good boxer technicians
Frazier.....avenged twice, Norton avenged twice, Spinks, avenged
come to think of it I should at least mention Zora Foley for fun jus cuz he was a very decent fella.
Holmes and Berbick well they just beat him up. He was at his peak when those beatings were delivered right?
This guy was not overated though I agree he was overhyped.
Read a report in the Ring magazine a number of years ago on the "Big Cat".
5 mins before he went into the ring to face Ali his manager informed him that the entire purse he was due for that fight was to payback his medical bills.
After hospital bills and his corner's cut Williams was left with nothing.
He went into the ring that night to face Ali for NOTHING.
It goes down in history as the most perfect fight Ali fought, but Williams wasn't in it mentally.
He entered the ring like a zombie that night and Ali shuffled all over him.
5 mins before he went into the ring to face Ali his manager informed him that the entire purse he was due for that fight was to payback his medical bills.
After hospital bills and his corner's cut Williams was left with nothing.
He went into the ring that night to face Ali for NOTHING.
It goes down in history as the most perfect fight Ali fought, but Williams wasn't in it mentally.
He entered the ring like a zombie that night and Ali shuffled all over him.
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Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 815
- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
The week after the fight at the Astrodome, Ali was on Wide World of Sports with Howard Cosell...Cosell always played 'devil's advocate' at some point during Ali interviews...always...people always seem to forget this, that's why I mention it...anyway, towards the end of the show (which showed the Williams fight while Ali & Cosell commented on it) Cosell said to Ali something like, 'you know that Williams was a better fighter several years ago and that he would've been much more difficult to beat back then' and Ali whole heartedly agreed that he didn't fight Williams at his best...and that Williams was now 'old'...but he (Ali) still looked good against him, and who really thinks that a prime Ali wouldn't beat a 'prime' Big Cat anyway? So who really cares how bad off Williams was that night...Ali was responsible for Big Cat getting the biggest payday of his life...and he evidently needed the money, according to your report...I find it hard to believe, however, that his manager told him his money was going towards medical bills...I kind of think he knew who he owed money to...I also think Williams was very mentally prepared to fight Ali...he knew if he could connect with his best punch (and he could certainly still hit hard!), he would soon get a whole lot more money, most of which he could keep...and as we all know, everybody likes big money...Gordon wrote:Read a report in the Ring magazine a number of years ago on the "Big Cat".
5 mins before he went into the ring to face Ali his manager informed him that the entire purse he was due for that fight was to payback his medical bills.
After hospital bills and his corner's cut Williams was left with nothing.
He went into the ring that night to face Ali for NOTHING.
It goes down in history as the most perfect fight Ali fought, but Williams wasn't in it mentally.
He entered the ring like a zombie that night and Ali shuffled all over him.
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Cojimar 1945
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 482
- Joined: 07 Oct 2003, 15:15
Jack Johnson dominance
One could rate Jack Johnson as number one or two because he dominated the heavyweight division for so long (around 12 years). During this period he fought most of the top fighters (Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey, Sam Langford, Marvin Hart, etc) and was never decisively beaten during this period.