Manos De Piedra V Pac Man

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 26 Jul 2011, 18:12

Who Wins

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 26 Jul 2011, 18:19

Ha I was going to say which weight but it really doesn't matter.

Duran ices him at any weight

tennessee · Post by **tennessee** » 26 Jul 2011, 21:57

pac man using that fast combo moving style to win a close decision.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 26 Jul 2011, 23:10

I have to pick Duran here at both welter and lightweight peak for peak, but it would be a close, competitive fight. No-one is "icing" anyone here in this one.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 26 Jul 2011, 23:25

Going straight at Duran is a nightmare. One Pac would endure. Not that it would be easy, but Roberto would never miss with his right hand and the body work would slow Pac down. Duran by late stoppage or UD.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 27 Jul 2011, 02:42

dempseyfire wrote:I have to pick Duran here at both welter and lightweight peak for peak, but it would be a close, competitive fight. No-one is "icing" anyone here in this one.

Agree completely. Pacquiao continues to stun & astound me. He's a match for anyone around this weight --- Duran included.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 27 Jul 2011, 02:44

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Going straight at Duran is a nightmare. One Pac would endure. Not that it would be easy, but Roberto would never miss with his right hand and the body work would slow Pac down. Duran by late stoppage or UD.

Though offense-oriented, Pacquiao is far too complete to simply hit Duran head-on. His speed, angles, footwork, volume of activity, & punching power (especially below 147) are a match for Duran. It would be a great fight --- & I just cannot count Pacquiao out of fights anymore. I've been doing it for years with the greats, but he has cut a swathe through Boxing between 122-154 like very, very few could ever do.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 27 Jul 2011, 03:24

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Going straight at Duran is a nightmare. One Pac would endure. Not that it would be easy, but Roberto would never miss with his right hand and the body work would slow Pac down. Duran by late stoppage or UD.
Though offense-oriented, Pacquiao is far too complete to simply hit Duran head-on. His speed, angles, footwork, volume of activity, & punching power (especially below 147) are a match for Duran. It would be a great fight --- & I just cannot count Pacquiao out of fights anymore. I've been doing it for years with the greats, but he has cut a swathe through Boxing between 122-154 like very, very few could ever do.

I'm quite comfortable counting him out against Duran. Same goes for any of the other guys he faced from 40-50. Totally agree that Manny's run has been brilliant. But the style match up pretty clearly favors Duran though it would obviously be competitive.

LeedsLad · Post by **LeedsLad** » 27 Jul 2011, 04:06

I'd be pretty confident in picking Duran by a relatively clear decision in this one.

Pacquiao is a truly great fighter, but he's not faced anyone with the complete defensive and offensive arsenal that Duran possessed. The most complete fighter he's faced is probably Marquez, who he struggled mightily with on two occasions. He was made to fall short with lots of his punches and was hit a lot.

As good as his run has been from DLH onwards, there are question marks over all his opponents - if we want to be picky.

DLH - shot, weight drained
Hatton - never that good anyway
Cotto - damaged goods? (This was an amazing performance from Manny btw)
Clottey - came for the cheque
Margarito - almost murdered by Mosley in his previous fight
Mosley - came for the cheque, didn't really try and win

Of course it's worth noting that Pacquiao dealt with them all very easily indeed and probably lost a total of two rounds in the process, both to Cotto.

Then again, Duran lost to a journeyman in Laing and was pretty much dominated by Benitez.....

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 27 Jul 2011, 04:52

LeedsLad wrote:I'd be pretty confident in picking Duran by a relatively clear decision in this one.

Pacquiao is a truly great fighter, but he's not faced anyone with the complete defensive and offensive arsenal that Duran possessed. The most complete fighter he's faced is probably Marquez, who he struggled mightily with on two occasions. He was made to fall short with lots of his punches and was hit a lot.

As good as his run has been from DLH onwards, there are question marks over all his opponents - if we want to be picky.

DLH - shot, weight drained
Hatton - never that good anyway
Cotto - damaged goods? (This was an amazing performance from Manny btw)
Clottey - came for the cheque
Margarito - almost murdered by Mosley in his previous fight
Mosley - came for the cheque, didn't really try and win

Of course it's worth noting that Pacquiao dealt with them all very easily indeed and probably lost a total of two rounds in the process, both to Cotto.

Then again, Duran lost to a journeyman in Laing and was pretty much dominated by Benitez.....

I consider the above complaints, for the most part, pretty typical of the idea you can tear down anyone's resume.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 27 Jul 2011, 05:34

He went off on a tangent, but if you just take his first few sentences he has a point, as Duran was skill-wise on about equal-footing with Marquez, but was also quicker and stronger to boot.

Pacquiao's balance by comparison is still bad and his lack of head movement, especially at 147 would screw him over against Duran, who throws straight, accurate, hard combinations the likes of which Marquez is usually landing off the back foot. Duran would tear Pacquiao a new asshole. Manny looks like a great boxer against plodders with no footwork. Morales and Marquez made him look stupid even though he was clearly stronger than both.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 27 Jul 2011, 07:12

Hes improved again since Marquez, WEAPON.

LeedsLad · Post by **LeedsLad** » 27 Jul 2011, 07:46

Diamond WEAPON wrote:He went off on a tangent, but if you just take his first few sentences he has a point, as Duran was skill-wise on about equal-footing with Marquez, but was also quicker and stronger to boot.

Pacquiao's balance by comparison is still bad and his lack of head movement, especially at 147 would screw him over against Duran, who throws straight, accurate, hard combinations the likes of which Marquez is usually landing off the back foot. Duran would tear Pacquiao a new asshole. Manny looks like a great boxer against plodders with no footwork. Morales and Marquez made him look stupid even though he was clearly stronger than both.

To be fair, he looked brilliant against Hatton, who had really good footwork. Then again, his chin had gone and a gameplan never really existed.

I think Duran's defensive smarts would be the difference in a fight between the two compared with the Marquez fights - for all his counterpunching ability Marquez is hittable, though I think it's his ability to fight in Pacquiao's rhythm that helps him against Manny, whereas it's suicidal for less skilled/basic fighters.

LeedsLad · Post by **LeedsLad** » 27 Jul 2011, 07:50

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Hes improved again since Marquez, WEAPON.

That's debatable.

He uses his right hand more, but can still be frustrated by the little half step to the left that Mosley was using.

It's difficult to say whether he's improved or not - he looked sensational against Cotto, who was the only man who came to win since he fought Marquez - his last three fights have all been too friendly, the sort of ''don't knock me out so I can walk away with my head held high'' affairs unfortunately.

I still think that Marquez will extend him in November and be the toughest fight since their second one - it'll be nice to see him in against someone that knows how to throw a straight punch, and can time his movements to perfection.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 27 Jul 2011, 10:44

Pacquaio.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 27 Jul 2011, 19:15

Duran...No doubt

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 27 Jul 2011, 20:32

LeedsLad wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Hes improved again since Marquez, WEAPON.
That's debatable.

He uses his right hand more, but can still be frustrated by the little half step to the left that Mosley was using.

It's difficult to say whether he's improved or not - he looked sensational against Cotto, who was the only man who came to win since he fought Marquez - his last three fights have all been too friendly, the sort of ''don't knock me out so I can walk away with my head held high'' affairs unfortunately.

I still think that Marquez will extend him in November and be the toughest fight since their second one - it'll be nice to see him in against someone that knows how to throw a straight punch, and can time his movements to perfection.

Take a look at the way Pacquaio is now a good deal further over the backfoot since three years ago, it's quite noticeable. His balance has improved considerably as a result, his ability to slip outside the right hand (which he's been open to in the past) has been heightened as a result, & he no longer over-reaches on so many punches. It's all there now. It wasn't in 2004, or 2008.

The above will be one of the lesser-discussed reasons why Pacquiao's victory over Marquez in this third fight will be more decisive than the last. Markedly so.

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 27 Jul 2011, 20:46

He wasn't in 2008 because he wasn't fighting a stationary target, which is pretty much all he's faced since. When Cotto and Mosley began running away he didn't know wtf to do.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 27 Jul 2011, 20:50

Diamond WEAPON wrote:He wasn't in 2008 because he wasn't fighting a stationary target, which is pretty much all he's faced since. When Cotto and Mosley began running away he didn't know wtf to do.

I am fiercely, fiercely protective of what Pacquiao has done above LW --- I'm not even really a fan of his per se, I just react very strongly toward revisionism in Boxing, & Pacquiao's unique achievements, & the way he's gone about them, are amazing. It's equally amazing to me how quickly revisionism has set in for every fight. Let's leave that aside for the moment.

What I outlined above, you dispute it?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 27 Jul 2011, 21:13

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Diamond WEAPON wrote:He wasn't in 2008 because he wasn't fighting a stationary target, which is pretty much all he's faced since. When Cotto and Mosley began running away he didn't know wtf to do.
I am fiercely, fiercely protective of what Pacquiao has done above LW --- I'm not even really a fan of his per se, I just react very strongly toward revisionism in Boxing, & Pacquiao's unique achievements, & the way he's gone about them, are amazing. It's equally amazing to me how quickly revisionism has set in for every fight. Let's leave that aside for the moment.

What I outlined above, you dispute it?

DW is one of the biggest Pac haters on this board, it's useless to argue with him.

And people are conveniently forgetting Duran at his peak had close fights (and lost . . DeJesus) with guys who wern't on the same level as Pacquao. This is a great, tough battle.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 27 Jul 2011, 21:17

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
LeedsLad wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Hes improved again since Marquez, WEAPON.
That's debatable.

He uses his right hand more, but can still be frustrated by the little half step to the left that Mosley was using.

It's difficult to say whether he's improved or not - he looked sensational against Cotto, who was the only man who came to win since he fought Marquez - his last three fights have all been too friendly, the sort of ''don't knock me out so I can walk away with my head held high'' affairs unfortunately.

I still think that Marquez will extend him in November and be the toughest fight since their second one - it'll be nice to see him in against someone that knows how to throw a straight punch, and can time his movements to perfection.
Take a look at the way Pacquaio is now a good deal further over the backfoot since three years ago, it's quite noticeable. His balance has improved considerably as a result, his ability to slip outside the right hand (which he's been open to in the past) has been heightened as a result, & he no longer over-reaches on so many punches. It's all there now. It wasn't in 2004, or 2008.

The above will be one of the lesser-discussed reasons why Pacquiao's victory over Marquez in this third fight will be more decisive than the last. Markedly so.

Agreed on Pac improving, but he hasn't faced anyone at Welterweight that could prepare him for Duran. The weight will be used as reasoning if Manny poleaxes Marquez this time. But it wont make a difference.

LeedsLad · Post by **LeedsLad** » 28 Jul 2011, 03:42

Yes, it's unfortunate that weight will be the primary discussion point if Pacquiao defeats Marquez convincingly.

IMO weight is of little relevance in this match up - their in-ring weights are pretty similar and the styles are an excellent blend.

Marquez is my favourite current fighter but if Pacquiao dominates/stops him he'll get all the credit from me.