Jack Johnson vs Other Greats

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

how would tyson do vs..................


Joe Louis - Louis KO 8. Joe Louis will jab johnsons face apart with his low hands and work his way inside. johnson will counter well like walcott did to louis but his lack of agression will cost him points. and johnson was knocked down before by fighters that have nowhere near as much pwoer as louis. louis will catch him and knock him out.

george foreman- Johnson TKO 14. foreman has a chance if he can land one of his haymakers, but he throws them too loopy and wide and johnsons style will counter that immediately. foreman will be throwing bombs with johnson countering inside and johnson whos nearly as big as foreman wont get pushed around. johnson will wear out foreman and then attack.


rocky Marciano- rocky KO 9 I think rocky wont be countered as much because of his non stop punching and aggression. he will get inside and crowd johnson and force johnson to slug it out wit him. rocky also will bang away at the body and and arms until he gets the head. johnson at times will counter and make marciano look silly, but he wont be able to hurt marciano, and he wont be agressive enough to take the fight to marciano. johnson will wait and marciano will come storming in throwin g hard shots and then hell connect and then batter johnson. also johnson was knocked down by a kethcel right, and if it was marcianos he would have been knocked out. i think marciano catches up to him and knocks him out with is right.

larry holmes- HOLMES 15 CLOSE DES holmes will bust up johnsons face with is jab due to johnson low hands but johnson will counter all of holmes combos and give him trouble much like norton did. this fight goesthe distance, but holmes is awarded the decision because of his aggresion and jab.

mike tyson- jOHNSON 15U . i think johnson will be able to stay away from his power shots and counter and land his powerful right uppercut on tyson which will do dmage. tyson will become frustrated when he cant do naything on johnson and johnson would take over in middle rounds and the championship rounds would be boring with a tired tyson throwing combos at times nad johnson countering them

sonny liston - sonny KO 6 . LISTON THREW HIS PUNCHEs too slow or better yet not fast enough to get through jacks defense. jack would be able to counter them and outbox liston and slip the jab. so jack could give him problems but liston is physical and would manage to get closer to johnson and i think sonny would catch him and knock him out.

jack dempsey- johnson 15u. I think a good style for johnson. dempsey kept his hands low and hit very hard, but threw wide punches a lot and jack would counter them. however, jack also threw fast sharp combos and i think they would land on johnson. once he hurt johnson, he wouldnt give him any way to breathe and just attack him. i think though johnson would counter jack easily annd win on points.

frazier- frazier by knockout. much like marciano except he would land the left hook.

lennox lewis- lewis by unanimous decision. i think lewis would use his reach to land long punches and johnsons lack of agression would cost ihm points. he also wouldnt be able to push around lennox.

[dempseyfire]

I think Johnson outpoints Marciano and knocks out Lewis . . .Johnson could be more aggressive when he wanted to . . .read the fight reports of him vs Ed Martin and Mcvey and watch him be the aggressor and kick Williad's ass around the ring until he tires . . . .

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

hes not gonna outpoint marciano. marciano will be throwing all the punches and not all of them will be blocked. johnson also held his hands low, and u saw what a middleweights right hand did ot him. i think marciano will catch jonhson and if not his non stop agrrsion and power punches will take its tool on johnson and marciano will win the decision. but i dont think the fight goes the distance, i think rocky knocks him out. i also think frazier knocks him out too.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

even on the stylist video teddy brenner said johnson fought so conservative he would be outpointed today by a lot of heavyweights. i dont totally agree with that, but i think lennox would have decisioned him.

[Sherlock]

I think Johnson beats all of those listed. Brockton, you seem to be severely underrating Johnson's chin. Johnson was rarely stopped, and was only stopped early in his career or at the very end. Also, Johnson had the ability to adapt, and I believe could adapt to any era.
People that say Ali was untouchable due his speed and reflexes rarely have seen Johnson, who had excellent reflexes, possibly the best at heavyweight. He had fast hands and packed power. The only guys of those listed that give him trouble are Louis or Liston there styles, but Johnson beats them by decision in my opinion.

And I think he chops Marciano up. Marciano was slow moving and cut easily. If an old Ezzard Charles can cut Marciano up, Johnson would batter and embarrass him. Johnson was best with guys that came at him, and Marciano is no exception, no matter how many punches he throws. Either Johnson stops him late or wins on cuts in the middle rounds.

Johnson's worst enemy was a mover, not a puncher.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

johnson was rarely stopped?????

yeah cause he the only guy he ever faced hat could hit was a middleweight, in kethcell. johnson did not have the best competetion. when eh beat langford, langord was only 156 lbs. joe jeaneette gave him tough battles and hes not considered a great heavyweight. ur overating johnsons competetion. he never beat a great heavyweight.

sherlock i know hes ur # 1 favorite fighter, but be realizstic. marcianos my favorite, yet i rate him third, and think a couple other heavyweights would beay him cause of style. ur in a dilusion thats johnsons untouchable. louis and ali would defintely beat him. i think marciano would knock him out. and so would liston. and lewis would outpoint him and so would holmes. WHO HAS JOHNSON EVER BEAT???? even 160 lb jack o brien gave him fits. johnson was in a period of time with some of the weakest competetion in heavyweight history. and johnson wouldnt even defend it against the top contenders like joe jeanette or sam mcvey for fear of losing. tell me a great heavyweight johnson beat??

AND AN OLD CHARLES CUT HIM UP????

first of all charles and marciano were only two years apart. and charles was an all time great fighter and came to fight in their first fight and did not look past his prime in that one, in which he gave marciano a gruelling 15 rounder. in the 2nd fight, it was all marciano and he cut marciano with an elbow.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

im not saying hes way overated. i have him # 7 all time heavyweight rankins. im just saying hes not a top 5 heavyweight in my opinion.

[dempseyfire]

johnson was rarely stopped?????

yeah cause he the only guy he ever faced hat could hit was a middleweight, in kethcell. johnson did not have the best competetion. when eh beat langford, langord was only 156 lbs. joe jeaneette gave him tough battles and hes not considered a great heavyweight. ur overating johnsons competetion. he never beat a great heavyweight.

sherlock i know hes ur # 1 favorite fighter, but be realizstic. marcianos my favorite, yet i rate him third, and think a couple other heavyweights would beay him cause of style. ur in a dilusion thats johnsons untouchable. louis and ali would defintely beat him. i think marciano would knock him out. and so would liston. and lewis would outpoint him and so would holmes. WHO HAS JOHNSON EVER BEAT???? even 160 lb jack o brien gave him fits. johnson was in a period of time with some of the weakest competetion in heavyweight history. and johnson wouldnt even defend it against the top contenders like joe jeanette or sam mcvey for fear of losing. tell me a great heavyweight johnson beat??

AND AN OLD CHARLES CUT HIM UP????

first of all charles and marciano were only two years apart. and charles was an all time great fighter and came to fight in their first fight and did not look past his prime in that one, in which he gave marciano a gruelling 15 rounder. in the 2nd fight, it was all marciano and he cut marciano with an elbow.

BB, you really show complete ingnorance about Jack Johnson.

1st off, Johnson faced MANY punchers much better then Ketchel. And Ketchel gave Johnson a flash KD . . .so what?? Johnson wasn't hurt at all and proved it by getting up with a smile on his face and KFTOing Stanley with the very next punch of the fight.

O'Brian-Johnson was a joke of a fight in which Jack didn't even try. To say that O'Brian had Jack in any sort of trouble is laughable. None of those present believed O'Brian showed he could beat Johnson at all.

Joe Jeannette IS considered a great fighter . . .go do some research before you post such stuff.
Mcvey could punch, Kaufman could punch, Haynes could punch, Martin could punch, Moran could punch, etc. Johnson beat them all. He was NEVER stopped in his prime. The 19teens was a very strong era and produced many great fighters. Johnson beat some good ones and great ones.

Marciano started boxing at a much later age then Charles, so saying they were only two years apart is only fudging the issue. When Marciano faced Charles, Ezzard had already had 98 PROFESSIONAL PRIZEFIGHTS!!! More knockouts then Marciano had fights. But be magically got back into his peak form against Rocky, because that makes your favorite fighter seem more great . . .

If you really study the film you can see Johnson was incredibly fast, very strong, a master counterpuncher and feinter . . .probably possesing the best reflexes of all the HW champs, including Ali. A master of distance, possesed a sharp left jab and incredible uppercut. Someone with skills like that could excell in any era.

[Sherlock]

Sherlock i know hes ur # 1 favorite fighter, but be realizstic. marcianos my favorite, yet i rate him third, and think a couple other heavyweights would beay him cause of style. ur in a dilusion thats johnsons untouchable. louis and ali would defintely beat him. i think marciano would knock him out. and so would liston. and lewis would outpoint him and so would holmes. WHO HAS JOHNSON EVER BEAT????

Actually, Johnson is not my favorite fighter, nor my favorite heavy. Iron Mike will always be my favorite, followed by Sonny Liston.

I always defend Johnson because I feel he never gets the respect he deserves, people still judge him by his actions outside the ring. And Sam Langford was a puncher at any weight. He twice kayoed Harry Wills (6'4, 220 lbs of muscle), a truly great fighter and many other top heavs of the day. I respect many of your opinions, but to criticize Joe Jeannette or any of Johnson's opponents as nobodies is pure ignorance, sorry for the blunt terms.

Johnson beat McVea, Jeannette, Langford, Denver Ed Martin, Bill Tate, Black Bill and Jim Jeffords, the great black fighters of the day, who given a chance at Burns or Hart, the majority would have beaten them. They don't rate the highest mainly because they never got the shot at the best.

He also beat Fiztsimmons( 1 year and a half removed from the LH title and still a dangerous puncher despite his age), Hart(he won the fight, regardless of the judging), Fireman Jim Flynn, George Gardner (a future LH champ), and Jeffries (though past his prime, in control the whole time).

That's why I rate Johnson the #1 heavy of all time, and I also believe he beats nearly all top heavys, if not all of them. He dominated in the ring. In his prime he was in control, that is not something you can say about Marciano, Ali, Frazier, or that many heavys. They struggled, Johnson embarrassed. Watch his fights, you can see where Ali got his style from, of talking to his opponents, laughing at them. The only difference is Johnson rarely got caught clean, even with his hands at his sides.

Watch Louis vs. Conn, Louis didn't know what to do when Conn was outboxing him. Johnson could fight offensively and defensively, and could adapt when a style was not working. The only obvoius knock on Johnson is that he didn't give his best every time out. Louis has the best chance to beat him, as Louis was more physically talented, but Johnson was smarter.

[Rory McCloskey]

i think its hard to tell how good jack johnson reallywas... we know he dominated the sport for over a decade, and had a solid record, but there is limitted footage of his fights, and alot of his earlier fights arent well documented, from what ive seen i think he could hold his own against almost any heavyweight, maybe not win, but he wouldnt be completley embarrased

[Grimm]

Johnson was like a heavyweight RJJ.

I don't think that there would be too many fighters that could outpoint him in his prime.

[Ezzard]

Johnson beats all of them. Louis has the best chance but I think Jack had a lot fo animosity towards joe and would really be up for it. I think he keeps away from Joe and wins.

Johnson UD15 (close but not controversial)

I agree with BB here. A late stoppage win for Jack as long as George doesn't get to him in the first 5.

Johnson TKO 12-15

Marciano

Rocky's problem here is that Jack was so adept at tying men up on the inside. I think Johnson is therefore able to nullify Rocky's best chance of winning. I see Rocky making a spirited rally in the championship rounds but it not being enough to save him from defeat.

Johson UD 15

I think the Holmes fight is a toss up. Both men have great skills and both were very tough. Still Jack made more use of the ring and would force Holmes to lead which might throw his game plan off a little.

Johnson SD 15

I like BB's analysis on a Tyson match up here, but I'd go a little furtehr and see Johnson stopping him around the 10th

Johnson KO 10

I think Johnson and Liston would have been a classic. jack was not as fleet of foot as Ali so liston would get closer and have a bit more success than he did in his first fight with Clay. I still think Johson survives some hard punishing rounds to just about edge the fight.

Johnson UD 15

I think Dempsey was quick enought o get close to land and have some imapct. I see him coming out blazing and getting dropped. Dempsey then scores his own kinock down in the mid rounds but Johnson re-establishes himself to take another decision.

Johnson UD 15


I think if Johnson fought now he would obviously moderate his style. He would still be the defensive master but would up the apce iof his fighting and improve on his punch rate. i think people look at his title record and underestimate him. Back in those days the title was a bit fo a cash cow. People like Johnson and Dempsey were wrecking the division up to winning the title. their pre-champion days are almost mroe important than their actual reigns.

[Cojimar 1945]

Lewis has a 3 3/4 inch height advantage and 10 inch reach advantage over Johnson so these physical advantages might pose serious problems for Johnson. Most top heavyweights of Johnson's era were much smaller than Lewis.

[dempseyfire]

Lewis has a 3 3/4 inch height advantage and 10 inch reach advantage over Johnson so these physical advantages might pose serious problems for Johnson. Most top heavyweights of Johnson's era were much smaller than Lewis.

Williard was bigger then Lewis and Johnson battered him to a pulp for the first 18 or so rounds of their fight. Jess was not as skilled or athletic as Lewis but he was much more durable and had a better chin.

[Sherlock]

Lewis has a 3 3/4 inch height advantage and 10 inch reach advantage over Johnson so these physical advantages might pose serious problems for Johnson. Most top heavyweights of Johnson's era were much smaller than Lewis.

Williard was bigger then Lewis and Johnson battered him to a pulp for the first 18 or so rounds of their fight. Jess was not as skilled or athletic as Lewis but he was much more durable and had a better chin.

And to add to Dempseyfire's post, Johnson also beat the 6'6 giant Denver Ed Martin. Though as Dempseyfire pointed out, they are not as skilled as Lewis, but Johnson did fight his share of tall guys. Johnson had a great uppercut, probably his best punch, which I believe he could use effectively against Lennox in the inside.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

the critics would say his defense him style would lead him to being outpointed by modern guys like in 70s 80s 90s era because he didnt take enoug hchances. what would u say to that?????

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

sherlock and dempsey, i am by no means being ignorant. i simplygave my opinion AS OF NOW on why i dont think johnson is a top 5 heavyweight. i rate him 7 but i recently got his book and wil try to study more of his fights to see what i am missing about him. i dont seee how u can call me ignorant for downplaying his competetion, because most of the men he faced were a lot smaller or never well known in history. plus their were a lot more fixed bouts baack then


the turth about jack johnson is we could never no how good he was. thats why i ant rate him as i. its hard to see the footage plus like u said against jack o brien he wasnt EVEN TRYING????? so we really dont know how good he was?????

and the ruleswere so much different back then. didnt u get to stand over a man and hit him once he got up right away???

[Sherlock]

I agree with you Brockton, with so little footge of that era, it is truly sad that some greats will be forgotten. Johnson was a complex character, and its great to see you are going to read up on him. I also recommend, if you havn't seen it, the Ken Burn's PBS documentary Unforgivable Blackness, a great documentary with rare footage on Johnson.

But I do feel you are underrating the heavys of the teens. I'm been reading up on Jeannette, McVey, Chonyski as much as I can find (interesting fact, if you don't know, Chonyski taught Johnson a lot of his skills in jail when both were arrested after one of their fights).

And I believe you've written before you are only a 18 or 19 year old, and I'm only 17 and still learning about fighters. We have a long time still left to learn .

And I applaud everyone on this discussion for not turning it into an full blown agrument like every post in the current scene seems to. A lively discussion with great points from both sides.

And it always seems everytime I'm in a heavyweight discussion post, I always seem to agree with dempseyfire .

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

YEAH WE DO HAVE A LOT TO LEARN. YEAH I KNOW ABOUT CHOINSKI. JOHNSON WAS VERY INEXPERIENCED AND IT REMINDED ME OF A PERSON CHALLENGING THEIR DAD AT ONE POINT AND THEIR FATHER knocking them out saying "u still got a lot to learn son." and choinski did that qith johnson using his experience to knock him out. and he did teach johnson some nice tricks of the trade.

i will study an in depth look at johnson.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

i agre about about the current scene. but the main reason is all the knowledgable users post on BOXERS OF THE PAST because a lot of the users on the current scene have no knowledge or no respect for old fighters.

THIS ONE GUY ON THE OTHER FORUM IS ARGUEING WITH ME THAT TOMMY MORRISON WOULD HAVE KNOCKED OUT ROCKY MARCIANO IN THE FIRST ROUND.

just the thought of tommy morrison beating marciano or any other great heavyweight makes laugh out loud.

[dempseyfire]

Rest assured BB,

Maciano would give Morrison a savage beating . . .

[Sweet Scientist]

but the main reason is all the knowledgable users post on BOXERS OF THE PAST because a lot of the users on the current scene have no knowledge or no respect for old fighters.

After reading post after post from you degrading Jack Johnson, I'd tend to think you lack respect for the 'old fighters' too...

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

lack respect for older fighters??????? AND HOW HAVE I DEGRADED JOHNSON???? I SIMPLY SAID I DIDNT THINK HE WAS A TOP 5 HEAVYWEIGHT. IF U LOOK AT MY FANTASY MATCHUPS, AND MY HEAVYWEIGHT TOUNREY, I HAD HIM BEATING A LOT OF MODERN DAY FIGHTERS. I HAVE THE RIGHT TO THINK AS OF NOW JOHNSON IS 7TH GRETAEST HEVAYWEIGHT EVER.

THE REAL THING IS ITS HARD TO SEE HIS TAPES AND FOOTAGE. IF THEY HAD BETTER TECHNOLOGY IT WOULD BE EASIER TO RATE HIM.

I ALWAYS PRAISE JACK DEMPSEY AND RATE HIM IN MY TOP TEN LIST. SINCE WHEN HAVE I EVER SAID SOMETHING FOOLISH ABOUT DEMPSEY OR JOHNSON???

ITS NOT LIKE I SAID THEY WOULDNT BE ABLE TO TAKE FIGHTERS NOW A DAYS.


i have nothing but respect for old time fighters. i was related to a bareknuckle boxer andrew gamble who lost a 5 round decision in 1800 to jim belcher for the english Heavyweight title.

[Sweet Scientist]

lack respect for older fighters??????? AND HOW HAVE I DEGRADED JOHNSON????

You have stated repeatedly that he 'never fought anyone'...which is another example of 'lack of respect for old fighters'...many of the old fighters that Johnson beat were great, as well...so there is not much good 'footage' of them...there is not much 'good footage' of any sports figures from that era...Should Ty Cobb be removed from the Hall of Fame because we can't watch him on film?

Jack Johnson was one of the greatest and most skilled fighters of all time. And there is footage available, if not the best quality...If it was high quality footage, Johnson might be seen as the best ever...I acknowledge that my picks for the top 10 heavies is impacted by the poor quality footage...I have Johnson at #3...and I tend to think he would move up if I could get a better look at him on film, which (sadly) is impossible...

...maybe you should take up engineering in school, invent a time travel machine...and then we'll be able to go watch them live and find out more about the old timers...it's probably the only way we'll ever find out more than we know now...

[Cojimar 1945]

Brockton, I would think that Johnson's long dominance in the division would make a very good case for rating him in the top five. He fought the best fighters over a span of around 11 years or so and was never clearly beaten during this period (prior to his loss to Willard).