Is Muhammad Ali Overrated?

[raylawpc]

I understand that Ali benefited from fighting in an era where mass communications was much more advanced than in Jack Dempsey's era but how does that explain him being more popular than current sports icons like LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, David Beckham, Lance Armstrong, Kobe Bryant, Derek Jeter and Peyton Manning thirty years after he retired?

But Dempsey had the same status 30 years after he retired. It would be interesting to see if Ali is still so universally remembered and admired 75 years after he retired.

He will be dead in forty five years. However it has been thirty years after he retired, and he still has a higher Q rating than contemporary uber sports celebrities like Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Tiger Woods, David Beckham, and Kobe Bryant. I don't want to be macabre but it's plausible, like Elvis and John Lennon, he will be even more popular dead than alive.

Dempsey's dead now. That's my point. I submit that thirty years after he retired, Dempsey's popularity was about like Ali's today. Seventy years after he retired and 30 years after his death, Dempsey is still remembered by non-boxing people. It will be interesting to see how well Ali is remembered 75 years after he retired, and after he's been dead for 30 years. Of course, we won't know because we'll probably be dead too.

[ThatOne]

But Dempsey had the same status 30 years after he retired. It would be interesting to see if Ali is still so universally remembered and admired 75 years after he retired.

He will be dead in forty five years. However it has been thirty years after he retired, and he still has a higher Q rating than contemporary uber sports celebrities like Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Tiger Woods, David Beckham, and Kobe Bryant. I don't want to be macabre but it's plausible, like Elvis and John Lennon, he will be even more popular dead than alive.

Dempsey's dead now. That's my point. I submit that thirty years after he retired, Dempsey's popularity was about like Ali's today. Seventy years after he retired and 30 years after his death, Dempsey is still remembered by non-boxing people. It will be interesting to see how well Ali is remembered 75 years after he retired, and after he's been dead for 30 years. Of course, we won't know because we'll probably be dead too.

That's a fair point.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I understand the backlash. Michael Jordan suffers the same backlash in basketball. Fans get tired of being bombarded with so and so is the greatest all the time.

Ray Robinson was probably the best pfp fighter.

But Ali is inarguably the most famous boxer to have ever lived. I know some folks will say Dempsey but I just don't think he's the same worldwide figure.

Nobody was more popular than Dempsey, NOBODY.

:




For the 4th straight year, "The Greatest of All Time" is the most famous of all sports celebrities
NEW YORK, June 2 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- For the fourth year in a row, Muhammad Ali has been ranked #1 in Marketing Evaluations' annual Sports Q ratings, Muhammad Ali Enterprises, LLC (MAE) announced today. In the survey's most significant category, "Familiarity," Ali was ranked #1 among the 487 athletes in the poll, ahead of such notables as LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, David Beckham, Lance Armstrong, Kobe Bryant, Derek Jeter and Peyton Manning.

The "Familiarity" category covers all age groups, ranging from 12 to 64 years old. According to the survey:

•Ali was #1 in the overall category, among the age group of 12 to 64 years old.


•Ali was ranked first in the 18- to 34-year-old group, considered the top consumer group by Marketing Evaluations.


•Ali finished first in the highest income level, households earning more than $75,000 annually.


•Ali ranked #2 among teens, ages 12 to 17, trailing only Tiger Woods. This is particularly remarkable, considering that this age group was born two decades after Ali's last fight.


For the survey, more than 2,000 people, ages 12 through 64, were interviewed during the spring of 2010.

MAE is a subsidiary of CKX, Inc. Michael G. Ferrel, the CEO of CKX, noted that this latest ranking comes amidst the 50th anniversary of Ali's gold-medal winning performance at the 1960 Rome Olympics.

"It's amazing that a half-century after he burst upon the scene, Muhammad Ali remains one of the world's most recognized figures, known and loved around the globe," Ferrel said. Ali has been heralded as the "Athlete of the Century" by numerous publications and organizations, and has been the recipient of countless awards for his humanitarian efforts.




http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 10684.html

Could you find anything more irrelevant to my statement? I think not.

[ThatOne]

You said "NOBODY WAS MORE POPULAR THAN DEMPSEY". That is your opinion which is by its definition subjective.

I cited an survey which conforms to the rules of modern survey research that suggests Muhammad Ali is the most popular living sports celebrity; more popular even than athletes like LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Tiger Woods, Payton Manning, and others. This is despite the fact he has been retired thirty years.

If you have objectve evidence that "NOBODY WAS MORE POPULAR THAN DEMPSEY" can you please share it with me.

Perhaps there is folly in comparing the popularity of athletes from different eras but if you truly believe that (Jack) Dempsey was the most popular person to ever lived there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Sorry if I had to specifically tell you that I meant Dempsey, IN HIS TIME, was the most popular fighter in history. Why on earth would you find it poignant that a bunch of people who actually saw Ali fight saw him as more popular than a guy who fought almost a century ago?

And no, there is absolutely nothing you could quote, link or say that would change my mind. But you could offer up something that i would take into account. Your survey was laughable. And I didn't even mention that it appears to have been conducted by Muhammad Ali Enterprises.

Ali is more popular among the 18-34 year old demographic than Mayweather, Pacquiao or James? Hell no

[addi]

Dempsey was a top fighter and was hugely popular in the twenty's, hollywood wife, was all over the news, and he was in some of the biggest attended fights in history but i doubt he was as well known as jack johnson never mind ali as far as world popularity goes.Ali is simply the most popular, recognised man on the planet.

[ThatOne]

Sorry if I had to specifically tell you that I meant Dempsey, IN HIS TIME, was the most popular fighter in history. Why on earth would you find it poignant that a bunch of people who actually saw Ali fight saw him as more popular than a guy who fought almost a century ago?

And no, there is absolutely nothing you could quote, link or say that would change my mind. But you could offer up something that i would take into account. Your survey was laughable. And I didn't even mention that it appears to have been conducted by Muhammad Ali Enterprises.

Ali is more popular among the 18-34 year old demographic than Mayweather, Pacquiao or James? Hell no

How is the survey laughable?


The Q Score is a metric developed by Marketing Evaluations, Inc.[1] that determines a "quotient" ("Q") factor or score through mail and online panelists who make up representative samples of the United States. The Q score identifies the familiarity of an athlete, celebrity, licensed property, TV show, or brand and measures the appeal of each among those persons familiar with each. Other popular synonyms include Q rating, Q factor, or simply Q.

Since 1963, Marketing Evaluations’ Q Scores have provided clients with data to aid in their marketing, advertising, licensing, and media efforts. Q Scores are the industry standard for measuring familiarity and appeal of performers, broadcast and cable programs, sports and sports personalities, company and brand names, characters, as well as deceased performers. Based on its “one of my favorites” concept, Q Scores actually summarize the various perceptions and feelings that consumers have, into a single, but revealing, “likeability” measurement. Currently, there are eight Q Score services, including Performer Q, TVQ, Cable Q, Cartoon Q, Sports Q, Brand Attachment Q, Kids Product Q, and Dead Q.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Score

Here's a link to their website:

http://www.qscores.com/Web/Index.aspx

It wasn't commissioned by Muhammad Ali Enterprises. It's an independent survey that is repeated annually.

As an aside, Good Night Irene, wrote that tales of Dempsey's feats made it as far as New Zealand, which is impressive. But last time I checked New Zealand was part of the English speaking world. I would argue that tales of Muhammad Ali's feats went far beyond the English speaking world and that's more than three quarters of it.

I suspect Good Night Irene would attribute it to the advance of mass communications. I would attribute it to the man itself.



P.S You wrote that "But you could offer up something that i would take into account."


Would you take into account that Time Magazine cited Muhammad Ali as one of the one hundred most important people of the twentieth century, ergo: ?


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 56,00.html

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Sorry if I had to specifically tell you that I meant Dempsey, IN HIS TIME, was the most popular fighter in history. Why on earth would you find it poignant that a bunch of people who actually saw Ali fight saw him as more popular than a guy who fought almost a century ago?

And no, there is absolutely nothing you could quote, link or say that would change my mind. But you could offer up something that i would take into account. Your survey was laughable. And I didn't even mention that it appears to have been conducted by Muhammad Ali Enterprises.

Ali is more popular among the 18-34 year old demographic than Mayweather, Pacquiao or James? Hell no

How is the survey laughable?


The Q Score is a metric developed by Marketing Evaluations, Inc.[1] that determines a "quotient" ("Q") factor or score through mail and online panelists who make up representative samples of the United States. The Q score identifies the familiarity of an athlete, celebrity, licensed property, TV show, or brand and measures the appeal of each among those persons familiar with each. Other popular synonyms include Q rating, Q factor, or simply Q.

Since 1963, Marketing Evaluations’ Q Scores have provided clients with data to aid in their marketing, advertising, licensing, and media efforts. Q Scores are the industry standard for measuring familiarity and appeal of performers, broadcast and cable programs, sports and sports personalities, company and brand names, characters, as well as deceased performers. Based on its “one of my favorites” concept, Q Scores actually summarize the various perceptions and feelings that consumers have, into a single, but revealing, “likeability” measurement. Currently, there are eight Q Score services, including Performer Q, TVQ, Cable Q, Cartoon Q, Sports Q, Brand Attachment Q, Kids Product Q, and Dead Q.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Score

Here's a link to their website:

http://www.qscores.com/Web/Index.aspx

It wasn't commissioned by Muhammad Ali Enterprises. It's an independent survey that is repeated annually.

As an aside, Good Night Irene, wrote that tales of Dempsey's feats made it as far as New Zealand, which is impressive. But last time I checked New Zealand was part of the English speaking world. I would argue that tales of Muhammad Ali's feats went far beyond the English speaking world and that's more than three quarters of it.

I suspect Good Night Irene would attribute it to the advance of mass communications. I would attribute it to the man itself.

It's laughable because it adds nothing to the discussion. I'm not taking another ride on your Ali Merry go Round. Dempsey set attendance records that Ali couldn't touch. That is more significant subject material than your little survey from Ali Enterprises.

[ThatOne]

It's an independent survey. It was not commissioned by Muhammad Ali Enterprises.

And, yeah, Dempsey set attendance records. He was popular among boxing fans. Are we talking about boxing fans or the general public?

And look who started this thread (The Ali Merry Go Round) . It certainly wasn't me. I try to avoid the topic on this board because of the many emotionally stunted arguments it creates.
This thread is an example of it,

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Dempsey was a top fighter and was hugely popular in the twenty's, hollywood wife, was all over the news, and he was in some of the biggest attended fights in history but i doubt he was as well known as jack johnson never mind ali as far as world popularity goes.Ali is simply the most popular, recognised man on the planet.

Famous and popular are two different things. Many people despised Ali. That sells tickets as well as love, though he could never sell tickets like Jack Dempsey. Nobody could.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It's an independent survey. raylawpc is an educated gentleman. Perhaps he can explain to you the difference between an independent survey and one commissioned by a specific entity.

No need, Ali enterprises running your beloved survey tells me all I need to know.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Jack's last fight was many years before Ali was born. Using a current survey as a measure would be ridiculous even if it wasn't conducted by the family of Muhammad Ali.

[ThatOne]

It's an independent survey. raylawpc is an educated gentleman. Perhaps he can explain to you the difference between an independent survey and one commissioned by a specific entity.

No need, Ali enterprises running your beloved survey tells me all I need to know.

Here is the entire press release:

NEW YORK, June 2 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ — For the fourth year in a row, Muhammad Ali has been ranked #1 in Marketing Evaluations’ annual Sports Q ratings, Muhammad Ali Enterprises, LLC (MAE) announced today. In the survey’s most significant category, “Familiarity,” Ali was ranked #1 among the 487 athletes in the poll, ahead of such notables as LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, David Beckham, Lance Armstrong, Kobe Bryant, Derek Jeter and Peyton Manning.

The “Familiarity” category covers all age groups, ranging from 12 to 64 years old. According to the survey:

* Ali was #1 in the overall category, among the age group of 12 to 64 years old.

* Ali was ranked first in the 18- to 34-year-old group, considered the top consumer group by Marketing Evaluations.

* Ali finished first in the highest income level, households earning more than $75,000 annually.

* Ali ranked #2 among teens, ages 12 to 17, trailing only Tiger Woods. This is particularly remarkable, considering that this age group was born two decades after Ali’s last fight.

For the survey, more than 2,000 people, ages 12 through 64, were interviewed during the spring of 2010.

MAE is a subsidiary of CKX, Inc. Michael G. Ferrel, the CEO of CKX, noted that this latest ranking comes amidst the 50th anniversary of Ali’s gold-medal winning performance at the 1960 Rome Olympics.

“It’s amazing that a half-century after he burst upon the scene, Muhammad Ali remains one of the world’s most recognized figures, known and loved around the globe,” Ferrel said. Ali has been heralded as the “Athlete of the Century” by numerous publications and organizations, and has been the recipient of countless awards for his humanitarian efforts.



http://empowerednews.net/muhammad-ali-r ... ngs/18236/


Can you please show me where it says it was commissioned by Muhammad Ali Enterprises.


If Mitt Romney announces he leads all Republican candidates in a Gallup poll does that mean he commissioned the survey?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Do you actually think I would read more than a word of that or click those links?

[ThatOne]

Do you actually think I would read more than a word of that or click those links?

I thought that's how adults share information on the internet.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Do you actually think I would read more than a word of that or click those links?

I thought that's how adults share information on the internet.

Posting the same thing over and over isn't going to suddenly make it relevant to the debate. Your Ali love is extraordinary. You're otherwise a reasonable poster.

When I told you the survey is laughable. What makes you think I would read another 40 or 50 posts on the same thing? You completely ignored why it's meaningless. And that's because the time frame of their careers is incredibly significant.

[addi]

Dempsey was a top fighter and was hugely popular in the twenty's, hollywood wife, was all over the news, and he was in some of the biggest attended fights in history but i doubt he was as well known as jack johnson never mind ali as far as world popularity goes.Ali is simply the most popular, recognised man on the planet.

Famous and popular are two different things. Many people despised Ali. That sells tickets as well as love, though he could never sell tickets like Jack Dempsey. Nobody could.

your right about dempsey as a ticket seller he was huge in the states back then, ali came through in the satalite era and far more people world wide saw ali fights. and thats a fact.

ali's not just the most famous,popular,recognisable boxer or sportsman he's the most famous,popular,recognisable person.

and defo not overated.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Dempsey was a top fighter and was hugely popular in the twenty's, hollywood wife, was all over the news, and he was in some of the biggest attended fights in history but i doubt he was as well known as jack johnson never mind ali as far as world popularity goes.Ali is simply the most popular, recognised man on the planet.

Famous and popular are two different things. Many people despised Ali. That sells tickets as well as love, though he could never sell tickets like Jack Dempsey. Nobody could.

your right about dempsey as a ticket seller he was huge in the states back then, ali came through in the satalite era and far more people world wide saw ali fights. and thats a fact.

ali's not just the most famous,popular,recognisable boxer or sportsman he's the most famous,popular,recognisable person.

and defo not overated.

Obviously technology was greater in the 70's than it was in the 20's. It also made Dempsey's popularity even more impressive. He made 1 million dollars for a fight in the 20's and enhanced the popularity of the sport in ways that nobody could ever touch. He was solely responsible for telecommunications getting involved in Boxing in the first place.

And no, Ali isn't overrated. He would have kicked Dempsey's ass. But it would have been to the dismay of the crowd.

[ThatOne]

Do you actually think I would read more than a word of that or click those links?

I thought that's how adults share information on the internet.

Posting the same thing over and over isn't going to suddenly make it relevant to the debate. Your Ali love is extraordinary. You're otherwise a reasonable poster.

When I told you the survey is laughable. What makes you think I would read another 40 or 50 posts on the same thing? You completely ignored why it's meaningless. And that's because the time frame of their careers is incredibly significant.

I don't love Ali. It would be like loving a movie or a box of cereal. It can't love me back. I understand your argument. You are arguing that Dempsey in his time was more popular than Ali in his time. I disagree. You are also arguing that Ali fought in the era of mass communications and Dempsey didn't, giving Ali an advantage. I agree there... However I would argue that Ali's popularity is much broader than the English speaking world and Dempsey's wasn't. That's subjective on my part.

I would also concede that popularity is an amorphous comment which is hard to measure and even harder when you try to compare different eras.


As to the survey I don't think it's irrelevant and I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Ali is more "popular" now than LeBron James or Manny Pacquiao.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I thought that's how adults share information on the internet.

Posting the same thing over and over isn't going to suddenly make it relevant to the debate. Your Ali love is extraordinary. You're otherwise a reasonable poster.

When I told you the survey is laughable. What makes you think I would read another 40 or 50 posts on the same thing? You completely ignored why it's meaningless. And that's because the time frame of their careers is incredibly significant.

I don't love Ali. It would be like loving a movie or a box of cereal. It can't love me back. I understand your argument. You are arguing that Dempsey in his time was more popular than Ali in his time. I disagree. You are also arguing that Ali fought in the era of mass communications and Dempsey didn't, giving Ali an advantage. I agree there... However I would argue that Ali's popularity is much broader than the English speaking world and Dempsey's wasn't. That's subjective on my part.

I would also concede that popularity is an amorphous comment which is hard to measure and even harder when you try to compare different eras.


As to the survey I don't think it's irrelevant and I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Ali is more "popular" now than LeBron James or Manny Pacquiao.

LOL, you love Ali more than oxygen. It's quite clear you don't find your survey irrelevant. I do, so perhaps you should try pushing it to someone else.

As for the argument, I don't even think it's debatable that Dempsey was more popular than Ali. You're mixing up famous and popular. I've never read an account of a crowd jeering Dempsey and screaming for his blood.

[ThatOne]

.

[ThatOne]

Posting the same thing over and over isn't going to suddenly make it relevant to the debate. Your Ali love is extraordinary. You're otherwise a reasonable poster.

When I told you the survey is laughable. What makes you think I would read another 40 or 50 posts on the same thing? You completely ignored why it's meaningless. And that's because the time frame of their careers is incredibly significant.

I don't love Ali. It would be like loving a movie or a box of cereal. It can't love me back. I understand your argument. You are arguing that Dempsey in his time was more popular than Ali in his time. I disagree. You are also arguing that Ali fought in the era of mass communications and Dempsey didn't, giving Ali an advantage. I agree there... However I would argue that Ali's popularity is much broader than the English speaking world and Dempsey's wasn't. That's subjective on my part.

I would also concede that popularity is an amorphous comment which is hard to measure and even harder when you try to compare different eras.


As to the survey I don't think it's irrelevant and I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Ali is more "popular" now than LeBron James or Manny Pacquiao.

LOL, you love Ali more than oxygen. It's quite clear you don't find your survey irrelevant. I do, so perhaps you should try pushing it to someone else.

As for the argument, I don't even think it's debatable that Dempsey was more popular than Ali. You're mixing up famous and popular. I've never read an account of a crowd jeering Dempsey and screaming for his blood.

Even if Ali was a controversial figure in America he was a beloved figure outside of America,in the Second and Third World, a world last time I checked the U.S. accounted for about six percent of it.



And even in America, most people have made peace with Ali. He's been a guest to the White House numerous times, regardless of the party of the president.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nobody's "hating" on Dempsey. I just think it's kind of odd to argue how famous Muhammad Ali is or isn't, whether you think he's The Greatest or The Most Overrated.

The man is famous. He could get an audience with Putin, Obama, Cameron, Wen Jiabo, Angela Merkel,Sarkohzy, Berlusconi. King Abdullah tomorrow.

I didn't accuse you of hating on anyone and I certainly didn't say Ali wasn't famous or popular.

I simply said that nobody was more popular than Jack Dempsey and you went on a tangent with your silly little poll. If you want to toss out posts implying an adult discussion you should try and keep it within the realm of what is actually said.

For the record, I'm a huge Dempsey "hater". I find him to be incredibly overrated. But his fame and popularity are unquestionable. He can't get a meeting with anyone. Because no matter how much you want to ignore it, his time was long ago and he is dead.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't love Ali. It would be like loving a movie or a box of cereal. It can't love me back. I understand your argument. You are arguing that Dempsey in his time was more popular than Ali in his time. I disagree. You are also arguing that Ali fought in the era of mass communications and Dempsey didn't, giving Ali an advantage. I agree there... However I would argue that Ali's popularity is much broader than the English speaking world and Dempsey's wasn't. That's subjective on my part.

I would also concede that popularity is an amorphous comment which is hard to measure and even harder when you try to compare different eras.


As to the survey I don't think it's irrelevant and I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that Ali is more "popular" now than LeBron James or Manny Pacquiao.

LOL, you love Ali more than oxygen. It's quite clear you don't find your survey irrelevant. I do, so perhaps you should try pushing it to someone else.

As for the argument, I don't even think it's debatable that Dempsey was more popular than Ali. You're mixing up famous and popular. I've never read an account of a crowd jeering Dempsey and screaming for his blood.

Even if Ali was a controversial figure in America he was a beloved figure in the Second and Third World., a world last time I checked the U.S. accounted for about six percent of it.



And even in America, most people have made peace with Ali. He's been a guest to the White House numerous times, regardless of the party of the president.

There is no point in talking to you about Ali. Carry on with your nuthugging.

He was more popular than The Beatles!

Edit: Holy shit, I just realized you dug up a thread from 2003. No, that's not obsessive at all.

[ThatOne]

Nobody's "hating" on Dempsey. I just think it's kind of odd to argue how famous Muhammad Ali is or isn't, whether you think he's The Greatest or The Most Overrated.

The man is famous. He could get an audience with Putin, Obama, Cameron, Wen Jiabo, Angela Merkel,Sarkohzy, Berlusconi. King Abdullah tomorrow.

I didn't accuse you of hating on anyone and I certainly didn't say Ali wasn't famous or popular.

I simply said that nobody was more popular than Jack Dempsey and you went on a tangent with your silly little poll. If you want to toss out posts implying an adult discussion you should try and keep it within the realm of what is actually said.

For the record, I'm a huge Dempsey "hater". I find him to be incredibly overrated. But his fame and popularity are unquestionable. He can't get a meeting with anyone. Because no matter how much you want to ignore it, his time was long ago and he is dead.

The Q Rating is a commonly used metric to determine the popularity, appeal, marketabilty of brands, celebrities, et cetera. I don't know why you are dismissing it.

And I think the fact that Muhammad Ali is the most "familiar" (there word) athlete today, thirty years after he retired, is impressive.