Ron Lyle vs. Ken Norton...12 Rounds, Circa-1975...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Horrific post. you might just have to try and accept that people watched the same fight you did and some of us don't agree with you. I've never said Lyle couldn't punch, and yes, big fella, he had George in bad shape. That doesn't mean he was his equal in the power department. He most certainly was not. You're emphatically wrong. Lyle didn't hit any harder than Norton. Or maybe I've never seen Norton fight either.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Foreman wanted the win more than Lyle? One look at their staredown at ring-center before the first bell tells me otherwise. Of course, I wasnt paying attention at the level John-John was, so what do I know?

[Jear]

I dont buy that any puncher beats Norton, I do however believe that Ken could be intimidated. Lyle was a big guy, an excon, who could hit plenty hard enough to get the job done on Norton. I think Ken goes into his shell and Ron stops him mid rounds

[Ambling Alp]

John L-Norton got stopped by Garcia, Foreman, and past his prime against Shavers, and Cooney. Is that really that much worse than getting stopped by Ali, Foreman, and past his prime against Ball and Cooney? I don't see how.

Neither had great chins but they had good chins.

As for Lyle-Foreman, just because Foreman was not a slick fighter doesn't mean a layoff has no affect. 15 months is not an eternity but it certainly is not ideal. If you were a trainer/manager, you wouldn't recommend that your fighter go 15 months between fights. I am not saying that Lyle wouldn't have decked him anyway, who knows? However, Foreman didn't look like the same guy that he was earlier. It is a factor.

Yes Lyle almost knocked Foreman out. However, you have to have a lot more evidence than that to make a good case that a guy is among the very elite hard punchers of all time. There are plenty of ordinary fighters who Lyle did not stop. Lyle did show in some fights that he was a hard puncher. However, certainly not enough evidence to show he is in the Shavers/Foreman class.

Norton hurt Larry Holmes, blew Bobick out, stopped Quarry. However like Lyle, he had many other fights where he was unable to hurt the other guy. Both Lyle and Norton proved that they certainly could whack, but not at the level of the very hardest punchers.

[ebeneezer]

There is nothing in Ken's career to suggest he ever could have prevailed against Lyle, or even survive into the middle rounds. He did not rematch Garcia until the lazy Jose was well past it, and had porked on 25 pounds. Between 1970 and 1979, the only fast starting huge puncher he took on was Foreman, and then only because George held the title. (Meanwhile, Lyle and Shavers were taking on each other, and both took on a prime Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Young. Ron and Earnie ducked nobody.) Mac Foster would have been an interesting test for Norton. (Bob Foster too, for that matter, considering that Bob was the same height and weight for Frazier that Garcia was when he knocked Ken out.)

I think the biggest issue with Norton is his weak psyche, then general punch resistance and resilience. The first knockdown Shavers scored on him was courtesy of a right to the body. Late in his match with LeDoux, Scott folded Kenny in half with a hook downstairs. Foreman pounded him with rights to the side. A completely shot Jerry Quarry knocked him from mid ring to the ropes with an opening round hook to the gut. Considering his physique and own body punching proficiency, Norton did not take hard shots to his torso particularly well. With him, it wasn't purely a chin issue.

Early in his career, he reportedly got up to win against Dutra, Eastling and Vic Brown, sub 200 pounders all. Later though, he had difficulty recovering once seriously stunned.

His chin wasn't Shavers or Foreman proof. We never got to find out if it was Lyle proof, Mac Foster proof, or even Bob Foster proof. There were some truly dangerous heavyweight hitters out there during his prime, and he steered clear of them, except for the one he had to go through to win the title. He saw some of Earnie's best performances from a ringside commentary position during the mid 1970s. The fact is that he didn't step in the ring with Shavers himself until after Holmes dominated Earnie over 12.

Norton wouldn't have beaten Lyle or Cooney(or any other fast starting power puncher) in his prime.

[raylawpc]

There is nothing in Ken's career to suggest he ever could have prevailed against Lyle, or even survive into the middle rounds. He did not rematch Garcia until the lazy Jose was well past it, and had porked on 25 pounds. Between 1970 and 1979, the only fast starting huge puncher he took on was Foreman, and then only because George held the title. (Meanwhile, Lyle and Shavers were taking on each other, and both took on a prime Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Young. Ron and Earnie ducked nobody.) Mac Foster would have been an interesting test for Norton. (Bob Foster too, for that matter, considering that Bob was the same height and weight for Frazier that Garcia was when he knocked Ken out.)

I think the biggest issue with Norton is his weak psyche, then general punch resistance and resilience. The first knockdown Shavers scored on him was courtesy of a right to the body. Late in his match with LeDoux, Scott folded Kenny in half with a hook downstairs. Foreman pounded him with rights to the side. A completely shot Jerry Quarry knocked him from mid ring to the ropes with an opening round hook to the gut. Considering his physique and own body punching proficiency, Norton did not take hard shots to his torso particularly well. With him, it wasn't purely a chin issue.

Early in his career, he reportedly got up to win against Dutra, Eastling and Vic Brown, sub 200 pounders all. Later though, he had difficulty recovering once seriously stunned.

His chin wasn't Shavers or Foreman proof. We never got to find out if it was Lyle proof, Mac Foster proof, or even Bob Foster proof. There were some truly dangerous heavyweight hitters out there during his prime, and he steered clear of them, except for the one he had to go through to win the title. He saw some of Earnie's best performances from a ringside commentary position during the mid 1970s. The fact is that he didn't step in the ring with Shavers himself until after Holmes dominated Earnie over 12.

Norton wouldn't have beaten Lyle or Cooney(or any other fast starting power puncher) in his prime.

Are you suggesting Ken Norton ducked Mac Foster, Ernie Shavers and Bob Foster?? What evidence do you have for that??

I was told in 1975 from the horse's mouth that he tried to get a rematch with Garcia, but Garcia always turned him down. The reason: Garcia's claim-to-fame was knocking out Ken Norton, and he didn't want to take a chance on losing in a rematch.

[dempseyfire]

John L-Norton got stopped by Garcia, Foreman, and past his prime against Shavers, and Cooney. Is that really that much worse than getting stopped by Ali, Foreman, and past his prime against Ball and Cooney? I don't see how.

.

BINGO

The whole "Norton couldn't handle punchers" theory that has been eeked into boxing mythology is just that . . complete MYTH. Losing to Shavers and Cooney past your prime, two of the biggest hitters of all time, and a peak Foreman at your peak, does not a glass chin make. Futch was the guy who made that "Norton froze against punchers" comment . . guess when he made it . . right before he sent his big punching undefeated HW Duane Bobick into the ring vs Norton. Norton was so scared he decided to ice Bobick in one round.
Quarry could punch, Garcia could punch (and while a little pudgy around the middle, carried the extra weight very well on his 6'4 frame in the rematch), Middleton (one of the very few to deck Joe Bugner) could punch, Lovell could punch, and Ali and Holmes, while not big one punch hitters, were no feather-dusters. Norton beat all of those guys and took some very hard, tough shots vs all of them. The whole "Norton froze vs punchers, he loses to any guy with KO power" is pure bullshi# plain and simple.

Norton by hard fought decision.

[raylawpc]

John L-Norton got stopped by Garcia, Foreman, and past his prime against Shavers, and Cooney. Is that really that much worse than getting stopped by Ali, Foreman, and past his prime against Ball and Cooney? I don't see how.

.

BINGO

The whole "Norton couldn't handle punchers" theory that has been eeked into boxing mythology is just that . . complete MYTH. Losing to Shavers and Cooney past your prime, two of the biggest hitters of all time, and a peak Foreman at your peak, does not a glass chin make. Futch was the guy who made that "Norton froze against punchers" comment . . guess when he made it . . right before he sent his big punching undefeated HW Duane Bobick into the ring vs Norton. Norton was so scared he decided to ice Bobick in one round.
Quarry could punch, Garcia could punch (and while a little pudgy around the middle, carried the extra weight very well on his 6'4 frame in the rematch), Middleton (one of the very few to deck Joe Bugner) could punch, Lovell could punch, and Ali and Holmes, while not big one punch hitters, were no feather-dusters. Norton beat all of those guys and took some very hard, tough shots vs all of them. The whole "Norton froze vs punchers, he loses to any guy with KO power" is pure bullshi# plain and simple.

Norton by hard fought decision.

[BigJuicyHog]

My question is....why did Lyle come back 15 years after losing to Cooney at 54 years old and fight several stiffs?

[klompton]

He was prompted by the George Foreman comeback just like Ernie Shavers. They hoped to cash in on a seniors circuit.