should frazier be rated higher?? i mean i rate him 6th. but he did hold the only real true win over ali. he beat ali when frazier was at his peak and ali had lost some but he was only 29 and still had enough speed to be slightly in his prime. so frazier should get credit for winning the series. ali beat him twice when both were washed up. i feel fraziers two massacres at the hands of foreman always hurt his all time rating.
what if the first ali fight took place in 1968 or 69???? would frazier have won??
i think ali who had more speed and stamina would have won a points decision but it WOULD HAVE BEEN CLOSE.
do u think frazier lost some of it after his ali win??? he seemed to downcline going from 205lbs to 217 lbs in both defenses before he faced foreman. would tforeman do the same thing to a peak frazier????
i think frazier rates him and is one of the best body punchers, and produces possibly the best left hook of all time. he di not have much of a right hand though. but he was great at bobbing and weaving and had incredible stamina and was always in good shape in his best years. he beat many tough contenders like his 4 round stoppage over chuvalo, his beating he gave bonavena for 15 rounds, he knocked out manuel ramos after getting hurt in round 1. he also knocked out aging eddie machen and a still tough doug jones. he BEAT A PRIME QUARRY TWICE. and knocked out undefeated buster mathis and WBA champ jimmy ellis twice.
how would he do against other all time greats??
joe louis- LOUIS KO 8
mike tyson- tyson TKO 3
holyfield- frazier KO 7
dempsey- Frazier KO 10
Liston- Frazier 15 close decision i think frazier would evade listons blows, and liston didnt throw haymers like foreman. frazier would also land his left hook,and pound away at the body. liston would pull ahead early but i think frazier would come through strong at the end to win a close decision . i dont think this fight would end in a knockout. liston was more sucseptible to a right hand and frazier had a good chin was was tough late in the fight. i can see frazier climbing off the floor to win a decision.
marciano: MARCIANO 15 close decison- this would be a battle from start to finish. both two best conditioned heavyweights and both great heart and stamina. i give marciano the edge cause unlike frazier, marciano had power in both hands. i think that could help marciano land more power blows down the stretch.
jack johnson- FRAZIER by decision . i think fraizer would crowd jhonson not give him any ability to breathe. fraziers lef hook was laso hard to counter and i dont think johnson will counter it in time. frazier will be the more agreesor and land the harder blows.
larry holmes- HOLMES OR FRAZIER close decision. holmes will have a tougher time jabbing frazier. but he will land and frazier will land too but frazier doesnt have the power right hand to land on holmes and it will be tough landing that left hook. this fight will go the distance, and holmes has a lot of heart.
but i see frazier dogding punches well landing hard blows and scoring, while holmes lands combos and jabs off fraziers face. holmes good counter punching will win the fight. WHILE FRAZIERS AGRESSION AND body attack will win him his.
lennox lewis- FRAZIER KO 13
Joe Frazier
Frazier was a great pressure fighter.
Like he said, guys can come into the fight knowing damn well that Frazier is looking to bang with the left hook, but there is nothing they can do about.
No one could shut down that left hook. Not even Ali found a way to shut down that left hook (Foreman did not shut it down, he just matched it).
Frazier's rep has been haunted by those two fights with Foreman. But to be fair, I think Foreman would KO Frazier damn near any time they fought. It is just how their styles match up.
No one has ever come forward and bang with Foreman and won, not even when he was in his late 40's. Every one has to swallow their pride when fighting Foreman, and move around the ring.
The best chance at winning a slugging match was Lyle in his fight with Foreman, and even then Foreman reminded us that slugging with him would only make for a KO victory for him.
But Frazier's relentless pressure could wear down alot of great fighters. Foreman is in the minority who could slug Joe out.
Here are some of my picks...
Frazier over Lewis by late stoppage. Frazier would close the gap and tag Lewis. Lewis would battle back but does not like getting stuffed. Remember the pressure Mercer gave him? Frazier would be relentless and reach Lewis' chin.
Frazier over Holmes. Holmes had a great jab, chin, fast hands and feet. But guess what, so did ALi, and Holmes was never as good as Ali. Thus a prime Frazier (who beat Ali) would beat a prime Holmes in much the same way.
Frazier-Tyson=??? ( I don't know if coming forward against Tyson is a good idea. I have seen Tyson get worked over by the jab, and held in close and can see him loosing like that, but that is not what Frazier did. Tyson might take Frazier out early.)
Fazier decisions Johnson. See the first Ali fight.
Loius would KO Frazier. Don't bomb with the brown bomber.
Holyfield decision Frazier. Am I crazy or can Evander put together a master piece like he did against Tyson in 96? Holyfield can handle guys coming forward, and had a great chin, respectable power, and great heart. He was also very strong and physical in the ring (elbows, head butts, would steer guys with his hands) unlike Ali.
Frazier decision Liston. Liston would drop Joe, but Joe would come back and keep smokin. I see Frazier winning a close points decision, but I can be talked into Liston winning too.
Frazier and the Rock...flip a coin. Both came forward banging. Both had great stamina. Both had power. Rock had it in both hands (like you said), but Joe had better upper body movement and hand speed. In the end both guys would get banged up and both guys are a great match. I say if they fought twice they would both win one.
Frazier decision Dempsey. Dempsey hit like a mack truck, but I don't see him taking Frazier out early (may be a knock down though). As the fight would wear on Frazier would pound Dempsey's skinny body, and close the gap. Dempsey had fast hands, and a rock solid chin. I don't see Jack getting stopped. But Joe was an animal in there, and fought like no one Jack would have contended with in his day. I see Joe by close decision, though this is another fight I can be persuaded on the other guy winning. Not many won brawls with Dempsey, and again Dempsey would do what he had to to win (hit low, hit behind the head, hit the kidney, etc).
Like he said, guys can come into the fight knowing damn well that Frazier is looking to bang with the left hook, but there is nothing they can do about.
No one could shut down that left hook. Not even Ali found a way to shut down that left hook (Foreman did not shut it down, he just matched it).
Frazier's rep has been haunted by those two fights with Foreman. But to be fair, I think Foreman would KO Frazier damn near any time they fought. It is just how their styles match up.
No one has ever come forward and bang with Foreman and won, not even when he was in his late 40's. Every one has to swallow their pride when fighting Foreman, and move around the ring.
The best chance at winning a slugging match was Lyle in his fight with Foreman, and even then Foreman reminded us that slugging with him would only make for a KO victory for him.
But Frazier's relentless pressure could wear down alot of great fighters. Foreman is in the minority who could slug Joe out.
Here are some of my picks...
Frazier over Lewis by late stoppage. Frazier would close the gap and tag Lewis. Lewis would battle back but does not like getting stuffed. Remember the pressure Mercer gave him? Frazier would be relentless and reach Lewis' chin.
Frazier over Holmes. Holmes had a great jab, chin, fast hands and feet. But guess what, so did ALi, and Holmes was never as good as Ali. Thus a prime Frazier (who beat Ali) would beat a prime Holmes in much the same way.
Frazier-Tyson=??? ( I don't know if coming forward against Tyson is a good idea. I have seen Tyson get worked over by the jab, and held in close and can see him loosing like that, but that is not what Frazier did. Tyson might take Frazier out early.)
Fazier decisions Johnson. See the first Ali fight.
Loius would KO Frazier. Don't bomb with the brown bomber.
Holyfield decision Frazier. Am I crazy or can Evander put together a master piece like he did against Tyson in 96? Holyfield can handle guys coming forward, and had a great chin, respectable power, and great heart. He was also very strong and physical in the ring (elbows, head butts, would steer guys with his hands) unlike Ali.
Frazier decision Liston. Liston would drop Joe, but Joe would come back and keep smokin. I see Frazier winning a close points decision, but I can be talked into Liston winning too.
Frazier and the Rock...flip a coin. Both came forward banging. Both had great stamina. Both had power. Rock had it in both hands (like you said), but Joe had better upper body movement and hand speed. In the end both guys would get banged up and both guys are a great match. I say if they fought twice they would both win one.
Frazier decision Dempsey. Dempsey hit like a mack truck, but I don't see him taking Frazier out early (may be a knock down though). As the fight would wear on Frazier would pound Dempsey's skinny body, and close the gap. Dempsey had fast hands, and a rock solid chin. I don't see Jack getting stopped. But Joe was an animal in there, and fought like no one Jack would have contended with in his day. I see Joe by close decision, though this is another fight I can be persuaded on the other guy winning. Not many won brawls with Dempsey, and again Dempsey would do what he had to to win (hit low, hit behind the head, hit the kidney, etc).
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tagjohnson
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 281
- Joined: 14 Jul 2005, 09:56
Hi
At the risk of getting thrown offf this board for heresy I have always thought Joe Frazier (who I loved to watch fight) has been over-rated. Yes, he did beat Ali in his prime. But styles make fights. Frazier was ko'd easily by Foreman, twice. What would had happened against the similar sized and styled Ron Lyle? Or the unbeliveably hard-hitting Earnie Shavers? I just can't see him beating any of the power punchers of the past 30 years like Tyson, who had waaay faster hands than Foreman and better defense.
Re: Hi
That's it, your out of here buddy, no more heresy!tagjohnson wrote:At the risk of getting thrown offf this board for heresy I have always thought Joe Frazier (who I loved to watch fight) has been over-rated. Yes, he did beat Ali in his prime. But styles make fights. Frazier was ko'd easily by Foreman, twice. What would had happened against the similar sized and styled Ron Lyle? Or the unbeliveably hard-hitting Earnie Shavers? I just can't see him beating any of the power punchers of the past 30 years like Tyson, who had waaay faster hands than Foreman and better defense.
