Muhammad Ali's "phantom punch"?

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 24 Aug 2011, 10:01

Alright guys, I've been reading on the internet for a long while now, that a large group of people people that Sonny Liston took a dive and that Ali's punch DID NOT connect.

What do you think about this infamous incident?

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 24 Aug 2011, 10:01

I say the punch landed clean and crisp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOil2UVYVj0

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 24 Aug 2011, 10:02

It was definitely a real punch. Whether or not Sonny could have gotten up is the source of contention. I honestly don't care.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 24 Aug 2011, 12:51

I think Liston knew he couldn't win and decided to go down rather than take a beating. Then for whatever reason he may have quickly had second thoughts.

ryanst1982 · Post by **ryanst1982** » 24 Aug 2011, 14:11

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It was definitely a real punch. Whether or not Sonny could have gotten up is the source of contention. I honestly don't care.

My thoughts exactly. I think it was a punch but weather he was hurt or took a dive is irrelevant, sonny could not win and he knew it. If he fought Ali 10 tines awould have lost them all. If he stayed down on purpose it was only done to save a further beating

SteveO · Post by **SteveO** » 24 Aug 2011, 15:34

ryanst1982 wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It was definitely a real punch. Whether or not Sonny could have gotten up is the source of contention. I honestly don't care.
My thoughts exactly. I think it was a punch but weather he was hurt or took a dive is irrelevant, sonny could not win and he knew it. If he fought Ali 10 tines awould have lost them all. If he stayed down on purpose it was only done to save a further beating

Totally agree

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 24 Aug 2011, 16:32

According to Liston he could have got up but he chose not to because Ali was standing over him and he was afraid Ali would hit him as he tried to stand up. He said to get up, he needed to put one hand on the canvas and he thought Ali was crazy enough to hit him.

Anyway, he just would have got another beating if the fight continued. Ali/Clay was all wrong for him.

yancey · Post by **yancey** » 24 Aug 2011, 19:41

I give the dive a 3.7 on a 10 point Olympic scale.

crusader · Post by **crusader** » 24 Aug 2011, 19:55

ryanst1982 wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It was definitely a real punch. Whether or not Sonny could have gotten up is the source of contention. I honestly don't care.
My thoughts exactly. I think it was a punch but weather he was hurt or took a dive is irrelevant, sonny could not win and he knew it. If he fought Ali 10 tines awould have lost them all. If he stayed down on purpose it was only done to save a further beating

x3

I don't know how anyone could deny that the punch connected. They must be blind or retarded, or both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prxnGjKjxoo

Jear · Post by **Jear** » 26 Aug 2011, 01:01

crusader wrote:
ryanst1982 wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It was definitely a real punch. Whether or not Sonny could have gotten up is the source of contention. I honestly don't care.
My thoughts exactly. I think it was a punch but weather he was hurt or took a dive is irrelevant, sonny could not win and he knew it. If he fought Ali 10 tines awould have lost them all. If he stayed down on purpose it was only done to save a further beating
x3

I don't know how anyone could deny that the punch connected. They must be blind or retarded, or both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prxnGjKjxoo

The ripple from the impact up Alis arm and into his right pec is caught so well in this footage

SolomonDeedes · Post by **SolomonDeedes** » 26 Aug 2011, 09:09

I'm inclined to believe Liston's account that he was genuinely knocked down, but could have got up, and didn't because Ali was going nuts and Liston feared being hit as he tried to rise. Looking at the film, it's a bizarre spectacle and it's no wonder people thought it was a dive, but that explanation actually makes sense of it.

Liston lunges in behind the jab and gets caught by a sharp right counter to the temple. He is just stunned enough that, already off-balance, he drops forward onto his hands and knees.

Ali goes crazy, waving his fist and screaming at Liston to get up. Liston instantly rolls over onto his back, out of range of Ali's fists, hands held up defensively.

Referee Walcott hustles Ali away to the neutral corner. Liston rolls over onto his front and gets up onto one knee. But Ali shakes Walcott off and races back to ring centre. Liston rolls onto his back again, in exactly the same posture as before. Walcott manages to get Ali away again and Liston, with no idea what the count is, rises to his feet.

Walcott should have just let the fight go on. How can a fighter be out when no one ever counted over him? I'd love to see how this one would have come out and at least Liston could have gone out fighting and not seen his career forever tainted by this chaotic screw-up.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 26 Aug 2011, 10:27

Why would you expect Liston to go out fighting ? He quit on his stool in the first fight, after Clay wobbled him, busted up his face and survived a round where Liston had him at his mercy and couldn't do much.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 26 Aug 2011, 11:05

Legit flash knockdown - the kind that can happen to anyone. Liston could have gotten up but didn't try. Only Sonny knew why. Anything else is rank speculation.

yancey · Post by **yancey** » 28 Aug 2011, 16:33

I'll go with Jimmy Cannon, the writer who was there and saw the punch up close.

His verdict?

"It couldn't have crushed a grape."

Rambo · Post by **Rambo** » 30 Aug 2011, 22:37

Sonny Liston should of fought Bruce Seldon, see who could do the most spectacular dive in the quickest time

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 31 Aug 2011, 09:13

The punch definitely landed. I'm of the same opinion that Liston probably could have gotten up but decided against it.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 31 Aug 2011, 10:05

yancey wrote:I'll go with Jimmy Cannon, the writer who was there and saw the punch up close.

His verdict?

"It couldn't have crushed a grape."

Jimmy Cannon hated Sonny Liston. He wrote disparaging things about Liston every chance he got. I'd take anything Jimmy Cannon wrote about Sonny Liston with a big grain of salt.

marchegianorock · Post by **marchegianorock** » 31 Aug 2011, 12:40

You have to remember that when Liston got up he was ready to fight and Ali and Liston fought for a few seconds while Walcott was called by the time keeper and told walcott that the fight was over. I do beleive the ref is the count that counts not the time keeper. Does anyone remember the quick count the japanese timekeer was doing on Douglas> The ref ignored the time keeper's count and he was doing the count that COUNTS. Not the time keeper's count.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 31 Aug 2011, 14:01

raylawpc wrote:Legit flash knockdown - the kind that can happen to anyone. Liston could have gotten up but didn't try. Only Sonny knew why. Anything else is rank speculation.

Well, he did get up, it just happened to be after the timekeeper reached 10. It's likely he would have gotten up sooner if Ali hadn't hovered over him like a vulture, causing Walcott to get confused.

It was clearly a solid punch landed, and as you noted, a flash type of KD.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 31 Aug 2011, 17:19

The Great John L wrote:
raylawpc wrote:Legit flash knockdown - the kind that can happen to anyone. Liston could have gotten up but didn't try. Only Sonny knew why. Anything else is rank speculation.
Well, he did get up, it just happened to be after the timekeeper reached 10. It's likely he would have gotten up sooner if Ali hadn't hovered over him like a vulture, causing Walcott to get confused.

It was clearly a solid punch landed, and as you noted, a flash type of KD.

He only got up when it was clear the Walcott lacked the presence of mind to count him out.

He was down at least 20 seconds - maybe more. What a fiasco !!

SeekingInfoSharman · Post by **SeekingInfoSharman** » 31 Aug 2011, 22:04

I'm tending in favour of it being a legit punch for the simple reason that Ali is a proud man and great boxer, and I don't believe for one minute that he would agree to faking a knockout. Maybe the punch was as quick as a Bruce Lee strike. I don't blame Sonny for staying down and no doubt hoping the referee would count him out - he was being hammered by "The Greatest" and knew he was beat. Ali's demeanour in wanting Liston to get up suggests Ali wasn't party to any alleged dive by Sonny. Ali deserves to have his awesome reputation remain unblemished as "The Greatest" from the heyday of boxing, unlike recent decades where so many titles have obviously been staged that I stopped watching the big fights - especially after the tragic exploitation and stitch-up of Mike Tyson by his gold-digging ex and the Christian girl who went to his room after midnight (I don't condone sexual assault but I think this girl must have been either extremely naive or encouraged to go there by one or more persons in an attempt to end Tyson's dominance of the sport; like many former fans, I lost respect for Mike after the disgraceful - and desperate - ear-biting incident, but he is a great fighter who deserved better management and guidance in his career than he received from allegedly dodgy Don King and hangers on). Sadly, they broke his heart.

yancey · Post by **yancey** » 31 Aug 2011, 23:07

Some of you are a little gullible.

Why in hell do you think Ali was standing over Liston like he was and telling him to get up?

Ali knew damn well it wasn't legitimate, he threw the punch! He wasn't part of it, but he knew immediately it was a dive.

He told his corner men and hangers on to keep their mouths shut on what they had just seen, for crying out loud.

I go with Jimmy Cannon and George Chuvalo. They knew, like most everyone else in the arena, what went down.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 01 Sep 2011, 08:10

raylawpc wrote:He only got up when it was clear the Walcott lacked the presence of mind to count him out. He was down at least 20 seconds - maybe more. What a fiasco !!

Well, if the ref never gets to 10, what's a guy supposed to do??

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 01 Sep 2011, 13:31

If you perform the research you can find Sonny Liston's account of what transpired. Liston is quoted as saying he could get up but didn't . He didn't get up because in order to get up he would have needed to put one hand on the canvas. He said this would have left him vulnerable to being hit by Ali as he tried to get up. And he thought Ali was "crazy" enough to do so.

It's interesting. Sonny spent time in the joint and probably wasn't scared of much. But even in the joint, prisoners are scared of "crazy" people and Ali convinced Liston he was a "nut".

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 01 Sep 2011, 14:17

yancey wrote:Some of you are a little gullible.

Why in hell do you think Ali was standing over Liston like he was and telling him to get up?

Ali knew damn well it wasn't legitimate, he threw the punch! He wasn't part of it, but he knew immediately it was a dive.

He told his corner men and hangers on to keep their mouths shut on what they had just seen, for crying out loud.

I go with Jimmy Cannon and George Chuvalo. They knew, like most everyone else in the arena, what went down.

He also stood over Bonavena after knocking him down. Was that also because the fix was on in that fight as well?

Muhammad Ali's "phantom punch"?

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