The phantom punch: Ali vs Liston

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 17 Jul 2005, 17:09

Makes me ponder. Ali didn't have that much power to put Liston down in one punch that doesn't even land the right way. There was no weight behind that punch - much like chris byrd shit. Or maybe Liston had weak chin wich I do not beleave. Was there more to that fight.. ? foul play perhaps?.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 17 Jul 2005, 19:05

Go investigate and report back to us...

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 17 Jul 2005, 19:23

Sweet Scientist wrote:Go investigate and report back to us...

your an idiot.. stop stalking me. go bye milk for you grandma, im sure your late allready.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 17 Jul 2005, 19:45

cultus wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:Go investigate and report back to us...
your an idiot.. stop stalking me. go bye milk for you grandma, im sure your late allready.

Stalking you...I don't have the time to stalk ignorant assholes who imply that Western civilization should fall to make the world 'more beautiful'...go live in Iraq if you like it there better...I'm sure you remember that post you made TODAY on The Current Scene...

As far as this thread is concerned...it's been covered numerous times...look it up in the archives...sicko...

wlvrne · Post by **wlvrne** » 17 Jul 2005, 20:43

Sweet Scientist wrote:
cultus wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:Go investigate and report back to us...
your an idiot.. stop stalking me. go bye milk for you grandma, im sure your late allready.
Stalking you...I don't have the time to stalk ignorant assholes who imply that Western civilization should fall to make the world 'more beautiful'...go live in Iraq if you like it there better...I'm sure you remember that post you made TODAY on The Current Scene...

As far as this thread is concerned...it's been covered numerous times...look it up in the archives...sicko...

Geez, in the Current post under "Worst Judges" you said this site was supposed to be fun. What happened?

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 17 Jul 2005, 20:55

this forum is infested... with hate. Everything is personal tied to one's ego.. what an ignorant thing to serve.

wlvrne · Post by **wlvrne** » 17 Jul 2005, 21:06

Yeah, I found that out. I've got a weirdo moderator who's erasing everything I post just to screw with me because I gave back to him what he dished out & he couldn't take it.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 17 Jul 2005, 22:07

cultus wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:Go investigate and report back to us...
your an idiot.. stop stalking me. go bye milk for you grandma, im sure your late allready.

Freakin' stalkers.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 17 Jul 2005, 23:53

cultus wrote:this forum is infested... with hate.

And you certainly demonstrated hate with that outrageous post on The Current Scene...How often do post about boxing?

Trent · Post by **Trent** » 18 Jul 2005, 04:21

The punch that landed on listons chin to me shouldnt have knocked him down, i think he threw the fight. But iff the punch was legit, i think Liston may have been trying to get up, but wanted to wait for Ali to go to his corner incase he tried to sucker punch him. The fight was poorly refed, and the count should have started with Ali in his corner. All in the past i guess, i think its never going to be solved, and will always be open for debate.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 18 Jul 2005, 14:44

What ever happened in that fight I have to say that the sight of Ali throwing that perfectly timed punch was beautiful. One of the best shots I've seen, purely on a skill level. It definitely landed, whether or not it was hard enough to drop Liston for real, I'm not sure...but the fact is that it DID drop Liston......

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 18 Jul 2005, 15:14

walshb wrote:What ever happened in that fight I have to say that the sight of Ali throwing that perfectly timed punch was beautiful. One of the best shots I've seen, purely on a skill level. It definitely landed, whether or not it was hard enough to drop Liston for real, I'm not sure...but the fact is that it DID drop Liston......

it was a good punch but it seemed to me that Liston took a dive, though it sounds outrageous even to me.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 18 Jul 2005, 15:18

the punch landed cleanly but didn't have the power... it was one of the weirdest fights I'v seen

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 19 Jul 2005, 14:03

Cultus, you are probably right. One thing is for sure, Liston didn't stand a chance against Ali, whether he took a dive or not. He wasn't in Ali's league. I couldn't see anyone ever beating the Ali of 64-67. Pure class. Maybe he realised this and rather than get his ass whipped for 12rds, he decided to go down the first opportunity, collect his cash and run........

Bowsky · Post by **Bowsky** » 19 Jul 2005, 23:02

are u guys stupid or something anyone should now that a fast punch like that is real powerful especially of a counter, liston wasnt expecting it at all

and how could liston be waiting for ali to go back to his corner before getting up, if liston fell back down while he was trying to get back up

it could be true that liston kinda gave up on the floor (i doubt it) but that punch put him down for sure

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 20 Jul 2005, 13:55

Good point Bowsky. I always thought the punch was very decent and it clearly Jolted Liston's head. Ali may not have been as fierce a puncher as Foreman or Tyson, but he could bang and he was close to 15 stone that night of pure muscle. So the punch definitely hurt Sonny and he fell as a result of the punch, not a 'dive'. The question really is did he deliberately stay on the canvas???

witherspoon · Post by **witherspoon** » 20 Jul 2005, 15:25

walshb wrote:Cultus, you are probably right. One thing is for sure, Liston didn't stand a chance against Ali, whether he took a dive or not. He wasn't in Ali's league. I couldn't see anyone ever beating the Ali of 64-67. Pure class. Maybe he realised this and rather than get his ass whipped for 12rds, he decided to go down the first opportunity, collect his cash and run........

It's not fair to say Liston was not in Ali's league. In his time, he was an all time great, IMO. Ali's 'anchor punch', i think, was enough to knock old Sonny down, but not enough to knock him out. Why did he stay down? Who knows, too many theories.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 21 Jul 2005, 09:35

I thought it was largely a misunderstanding, Liston stayed down until Ali was turned to a neutrel corner, so Liston wen tback down. Then got up, but Joe Walcott was instructed he'd failed to beat the ten count.

Lickszz · Post by **Lickszz** » 21 Jul 2005, 17:39

[quote="walshb"]Good point Bowsky. I always thought the punch was very decent and it clearly Jolted Liston's head. Ali may not have been as fierce a puncher as Foreman or Tyson, but he could bang and he was close to 15 stone that night of pure muscle. So the punch definitely hurt Sonny and he fell as a result of the punch, not a 'dive'. The question really is did he deliberately stay on the canvas???[/quote]

He didn't stay on the canvas. He never received a proper count and got to his feet not knowing whether he'd beaten the count or not. The fight then continued with Ali pressuring Liston against the rope before Walcott got confirmation that Liston has not managed to get up before the count. In short, the ref didn't even know if Liston had managed to beat the count until he got confirmation from ringside.

Dapaper · Post by **Dapaper** » 21 Jul 2005, 20:22

I have watched and re-watched this knockdown many times, and in slow motion. I really don't see any two ways to interpret what happened.

Liston got hit with a punch he didn't see, it shook his head, it knocked him off balance, he went down from it. He was not hurt, just momentarily stunned. Once he found himself on the ground, Liston figured he might as well end the fight now. He knew that he could not compete with Ali, and he knew he had been legitimately knocked down, so it seemed reasonable to just stay down, look confused, and let the count finish. BUT the count didn't finish, Walcott messed it up, so eventually Liston realized that he would have to get up or things would look fishy. He gets up with an extremely exhasperated look on his face, and tentatively continues to fight. Then it is pointed out that Liston was down for more than 10 seconds, and the fight is stopped.

I don't think Liston was trying to throw the fight, per se, I just think he was resigned to lose. When a fighter is resigned to lose, and they get legitimately knocked down, they almost never beat the count. Liston wouldn't have known how it looked, all he would know is he got knocked down, so in his mind staying down would not have seemed like such a weird thing to do. He would not have known how weird it looked to the audience and that the punch was so fast many people couldn't even see it. Even if Liston was planning to throw the fight, he would have done the exact same thing for the same reasons.

That's the way I saw it. I don't even think it's that strange, personally, the only weird thing is how incredibly fast Ali was able to punch. If I remember right, his punch from start to finish covered only 3 film frames. Just incredibly fast.

-Dapa

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 23 Jul 2005, 16:06

Liston had looked much better in his early fight's I think. He still would have had a puncher chance. And somebody said in this forum that Liston was visited by a group of angry muslims.. and that's why he had to threw the fight...

yes/no?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 23 Jul 2005, 16:43

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30659

Above is a very recent thread on this subject with much info.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 27 Jul 2005, 01:34

...a fly was crawling across my picnic table. i hit it harder than ali hit liston...and the fly didn't even slow down.

okay..okay...ali referred to the punch as an "anchor punch" and claimed he learned it from stepin fetchit....whom he allowed as part of his entouirage for a while, as step was old and down on his luck. i knew step...talked to him some time after this fight and he said "yes indeed....i taught him the ankle punch." odd that the creator of this powerful bolt from nowhere and the student didn't even agree on what it was called, isn't it?

(rhetorical question)

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 28 Jul 2005, 17:26

Jaclem wrote:...a fly was crawling across my picnic table. i hit it harder than ali hit liston...and the fly didn't even slow down.

okay..okay...ali referred to the punch as an "anchor punch" and claimed he learned it from stepin fetchit....whom he allowed as part of his entouirage for a while, as step was old and down on his luck. i knew step...talked to him some time after this fight and he said "yes indeed....i taught him the ankle punch." odd that the creator of this powerful bolt from nowhere and the student didn't even agree on what it was called, isn't it?

(rhetorical question)

maybe you should have worked the body first .. slow him down and then, you know..