Another night at the circus with the Klitschko's !!

[Quixall]

Another night at the circus with the Klitschko's...............

Fair play to Adamek, he gave it a go, particularly in the fourth round but it was like watching something from the circus, the midget versus the giant. The heavyweight division is appalling and the Klitschko's dominate in an era where there is virtually no-one to challenge them. Haye and Adamek are both Cruiserweights trying to cash in on fighting at a heavier weight because of the abject lack of quality opponents for the Klitschko's. I have always thought that both Wladimir and Vitali are decent heavyweights but nothing special and i feel both would have been able to compete in any ara due to their size alone. how succesful either Klitschko would have been in earlier era's ie, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis is debatable, but they would have been competative. But the heavyweight scene now is just plain awful and the sheer lack of any notable fighters is making both the Klitschko's look like legends, which they certainly are not. I don't want to watch anymore midget vs giant match ups, ive had enough of the predictability, but i feel that the Klitschko's will dominate untill they wish to stop fighting altogether. When they have gone, i really don't know what the heavyweight division will do to attract people to watch.

I have written this in one of the threads but wanted to see what people thought. It's not really a criticism of the Klitschko's per se, just an exasperation of what has become of the heavyweight division, one that i can't see improving in the near future.

[wesley05]

Great post was watching this shaking my head all way through

[exittored]

Another night at the circus with the Klitschko's...............

Fair play to Adamek, he gave it a go, particularly in the fourth round but it was like watching something from the circus, the midget versus the giant. The heavyweight division is appalling and the Klitschko's dominate in an era where there is virtually no-one to challenge them. Haye and Adamek are both Cruiserweights trying to cash in on fighting at a heavier weight because of the abject lack of quality opponents for the Klitschko's. I have always thought that both Wladimir and Vitali are decent heavyweights but nothing special and i feel both would have been able to compete in any ara due to their size alone. how succesful either Klitschko would have been in earlier era's ie, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis is debatable, but they would have been competative. But the heavyweight scene now is just plain awful and the sheer lack of any notable fighters is making both the Klitschko's look like legends, which they certainly are not. I don't want to watch anymore midget vs giant match ups, ive had enough of the predictability, but i feel that the Klitschko's will dominate untill they wish to stop fighting altogether. When they have gone, i really don't know what the heavyweight division will do to attract people to watch.

I have written this in one of the threads but wanted to see what people thought. It's not really a criticism of the Klitschko's per se, just an exasperation of what has become of the heavyweight division, one that i can't see improving in the near future.

How about Vitali vs Valuev? at least Vitali would look small for once.

[Quixall]

Another night at the circus with the Klitschko's...............

Fair play to Adamek, he gave it a go, particularly in the fourth round but it was like watching something from the circus, the midget versus the giant. The heavyweight division is appalling and the Klitschko's dominate in an era where there is virtually no-one to challenge them. Haye and Adamek are both Cruiserweights trying to cash in on fighting at a heavier weight because of the abject lack of quality opponents for the Klitschko's. I have always thought that both Wladimir and Vitali are decent heavyweights but nothing special and i feel both would have been able to compete in any ara due to their size alone. how succesful either Klitschko would have been in earlier era's ie, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lewis is debatable, but they would have been competative. But the heavyweight scene now is just plain awful and the sheer lack of any notable fighters is making both the Klitschko's look like legends, which they certainly are not. I don't want to watch anymore midget vs giant match ups, ive had enough of the predictability, but i feel that the Klitschko's will dominate untill they wish to stop fighting altogether. When they have gone, i really don't know what the heavyweight division will do to attract people to watch.

I have written this in one of the threads but wanted to see what people thought. It's not really a criticism of the Klitschko's per se, just an exasperation of what has become of the heavyweight division, one that i can't see improving in the near future.

How about Vitali vs Valuev? at least Vitali would look small for once.

Valuev has the size but nothing else..........

That would be a dull fight, because Vitali wouldn't chase Valuev like he did Adamek, because of Valuevs size. It would be a very predictable points win for Vitali. The only hope would actually be Klitschko vs Klitschko

[JC]

Always thought either Klitschko vs Valuev would look like Baer vs Carnera, as long as they didn't try and coast it.

[Quixall]

How about the top 3-7 heavies all fight the Klitschkos at once?

7 fighters in the ring at once?

'HEAVYWEIGHT MADNESS'

kLITSCHKOS WIN BY KO. 1 2 3 4 5 6 AND 7TH ROUND

It's perhaps come to that..................

Or pay Lennox 8 trillion dollars to return with his zimmer frame, because he would be a damn sight more competative

[exittored]

Always thought either Klitschko vs Valuev would look like Baer vs Carnera, as long as they didn't try and coast it.

Kind of disagree...Wlad vs Valuev would be baer vs Carnera for sure due to Wlads athletic and speed advantages but Vitali's height and reach are much more fundamental to his success, since the Lewis fight he's had those advantages with every opponent.

He wouldn't be able to lean back to stay out of range for punches against Valuev so it would be a pretty interesting fight to see Vitali have to give away alot of his advantages. Having said that Valuev is 38 now and past it but would have been interesting 5 years ago.

[yiddo14]

Vitali is there for the taking. Shame there aren't no "mediocre" 80/90ss heavyweights ( honestly I could name 5 "average" Heavies from these years that would beat Vitali no doubt ) about to take advantage. Beating guys that Chad Dawson beat clearly years ago does not and will never impress me, sorry.

[JC]

Always thought either Klitschko vs Valuev would look like Baer vs Carnera, as long as they didn't try and coast it.

Kind of disagree...Wlad vs Valuev would be baer vs Carnera for sure due to Wlads athletic and speed advantages but Vitali's height and reach are much more fundamental to his success, since the Lewis fight he's had those advantages with every opponent with the possible exception of Briggs who was shot anyway.

He wouldn't be able to lean back to stay out of range for punches against Valuev so it would be a pretty interesting fight to see Vitali have to give away alot of his advantages. Having said that Valuev is 38 now and past it but would have been interesting 5 years ago.

I do see you point but watch Valuev/Chaguev, his jab is weak. Even if you were bigger than Vitali you would need to double or triple up on a stiff jab and follow up with a right hand. Vitali's habit of leaning back from punches looks horrible, but if he can do that vs Adamek he could convert it to slipping punches vs Valuev.

[gp.]

Yeah, why aren't the Klitschkos fighting mediocre heavyweights from the past instead of fighting absolutely every challenger that's available to them now? I'd love to see Wladimir up against George Chuvalo, myself. Dead or not.

[Quixall]

The heavyweight division is no poorer now than it has been in the past. I would even go as far as to say it is better now than when Tyson first won the title or Holmes was dominating. If the Klitshkos were taken out of the divison it would highly competitive and no doubt be labelled a gold era as the title changes hands, exciting evenly matched fights, re-matches etc the division isnt so bad it's just the Klitshkos are very good and would of given any fighter of any era a tough fight.

Completely disagree..............

The likes of Tubbs, Witherspoon, Tucker, Thomas, Biggs, Bruno, just to name a few of the early Tyson era were all some way above what now passes as the heavyweight division. The Likes of Shavers, Norton, Lyle, Bugner, weaver, Dokes from the Holmes era were also some way above what is around now. The Klitschko's are decent fighters, nothing more than that, there size would have made them competative, Vitali more so than Wladimir comparing there prime years, but each would have fallen short at the hands of the elite fighters of previous years. The current heavyweight scene is a disgrace and it's popularity only exists in Europe where you have a great following for the Klitschko's, the Americans gave up on the heavyweight division long ago. The Povetkin fight last week was an example of what would fill the void if the Klitschko's left the scene, a very unremarkable fight to say the least. The mere fact that the last two fights involving the Klitschko's have been against blown up cruiserweights too small to challenge says it all, with both men having done very little to earn their title shots. This i think tells you all you need to know about the state of the division. It's only saving grace is the Klitschko's, who look supreme compared to the dross of unconditioned, de-motivated and talentless drivel that make up the rest of the heavyweight division.

[exittored]

Always thought either Klitschko vs Valuev would look like Baer vs Carnera, as long as they didn't try and coast it.

Kind of disagree...Wlad vs Valuev would be baer vs Carnera for sure due to Wlads athletic and speed advantages but Vitali's height and reach are much more fundamental to his success, since the Lewis fight he's had those advantages with every opponent with the possible exception of Briggs who was shot anyway.

He wouldn't be able to lean back to stay out of range for punches against Valuev so it would be a pretty interesting fight to see Vitali have to give away alot of his advantages. Having said that Valuev is 38 now and past it but would have been interesting 5 years ago.

I do see you point but watch Valuev/Chaguev, his jab is weak. Even if you were bigger than Vitali you would need to double or triple up on a stiff jab and follow up with a right hand. Vitali's habit of leaning back from punches looks horrible, but if he can do that vs Adamek he could convert it to slipping punches vs Valuev.

I will add too that if someone with power timed their punch just right as vitali leans back they would break his jaw as it's just there dangling to be broken, easier said then done although he's only faced one very good Heavyweight in his whole career that was the same kind of size as him(Lennox Lewis) and we all saw the mess he made of Vitali's face.

Infact in the whole of Vitali's career he's only faced 2 similar sized heavyweights(Lewis and Timo Hoffman who went the distance with him) the rest he's had at least 4 inches height advantage over.

[JC]

Kind of disagree...Wlad vs Valuev would be baer vs Carnera for sure due to Wlads athletic and speed advantages but Vitali's height and reach are much more fundamental to his success, since the Lewis fight he's had those advantages with every opponent with the possible exception of Briggs who was shot anyway.

He wouldn't be able to lean back to stay out of range for punches against Valuev so it would be a pretty interesting fight to see Vitali have to give away alot of his advantages. Having said that Valuev is 38 now and past it but would have been interesting 5 years ago.

I do see you point but watch Valuev/Chaguev, his jab is weak. Even if you were bigger than Vitali you would need to double or triple up on a stiff jab and follow up with a right hand. Vitali's habit of leaning back from punches looks horrible, but if he can do that vs Adamek he could convert it to slipping punches vs Valuev.

I will add too that if someone with power timed their punch just right as vitali leans back they would break his jaw as it's just there dangling to be broken, easier said then done although he's only faced one very good Heavyweight in his whole career that was the same kind of size as him(Lennox Lewis) and we all saw the mess he made of Vitali's face.

Infact in the whole of Vitali's career he's only faced 2 similar sized heavyweights(Lewis and Timo Hoffman who went the distance with him) the rest he's had at least 4 inches height advantage over.

This is true but what Lewis had was size combined with athleticism.

Vitali is the more effective fighter but Wlad actually has the physical tools to beat him in a mythical match-up. I just don't think Wlad could fight in the style required to beat Vitali.

[davie]

I've wondered for a while, how the klitschkos would cope facing someone of similar hieght. as thier size/hieght/reach advantages play such a large part in their success and they so often fight physically smaller fighters.

there seemed little interest in fighting valuev when he was champion.


but there are a few heavywieghts emerging now who may be prospective opponents for the brothers in coming years who can match up at least in terms of hieght

Robert Helenius - 6' 6.5''
Tyson Fury - 6' 9''
Alexander Dimitrenko - 6' 7''
David Price - 6' 8''

it will be interesting to see how some of these guys get on?

i've little doubt they'll get thumped as well,
but it will at least be interesting to see wlad/vitali pick on someone there own size, who at least looks as if they belong in the same ring as them. even if they probably don't in terms of talent!

[gobbles]

The heavyweight division is no poorer now than it has been in the past. I would even go as far as to say it is better now than when Tyson first won the title or Holmes was dominating. If the Klitshkos were taken out of the divison it would highly competitive and no doubt be labelled a gold era as the title changes hands, exciting evenly matched fights, re-matches etc the division isnt so bad it's just the Klitshkos are very good and would of given any fighter of any era a tough fight.

Completely disagree..............

The likes of Tubbs, Witherspoon, Tucker, Thomas, Biggs, Bruno, just to name a few of the early Tyson era were all some way above what now passes as the heavyweight division. The Likes of Shavers, Norton, Lyle, Bugner, weaver, Dokes from the Holmes era were also some way above what is around now. The Klitschko's are decent fighters, nothing more than that, there size would have made them competative, Vitali more so than Wladimir comparing there prime years, but each would have fallen short at the hands of the elite fighters of previous years. The current heavyweight scene is a disgrace and it's popularity only exists in Europe where you have a great following for the Klitschko's, the Americans gave up on the heavyweight division long ago. The Povetkin fight last week was an example of what would fill the void if the Klitschko's left the scene, a very unremarkable fight to say the least. The mere fact that the last two fights involving the Klitschko's have been against blown up cruiserweights too small to challenge says it all, with both men having done very little to earn their title shots. This i think tells you all you need to know about the state of the division. It's only saving grace is the Klitschko's, who look supreme compared to the dross of unconditioned, de-motivated and talentless drivel that make up the rest of the heavyweight division.

I think you fall into the old trap of believing everything Americans tell you.
Take Biggs for instance, got where he did because of his Olympic gold medal. Yet he won that at an Olympics with no Cubans, no Soviets, no East Germans.
Tubbs, Tucker, Thomas - only bigged up because we all used to watch them on ITV. The reality is that - taking away the likes of Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Bowe in the small golden perios - the general level of heavyweight since the fall of the Berlin Wall has probably gone up, but the best heavyweights now come from behind the iron curtain where they tend to be very grey characters with similar amateur styles.
But I see no reason why a Tubbs, Thomas, Tucker, Berbick, Page or McCall would necessarily clean out the heavyweight division below the Klitschkos.

[JC]

THANK YOU, people really tend to look back on previous eras in boxing with rose tinted glasses. The 80's was when the division was very poor with Don KIng controlling a lot of junkie, out of condtion, average heavies. Fighters like Dokes, Tubbs, Tucker, Bruno etc would of done ok in this modern era but they are not cleaning out the division. Tyson really cleaned out a very poor division and when he came along heavy weight boxing was at an all time low. Remember, people forget that fighters like Seldon, Bruno, Dokes, Weaver, Coetzee, Witherspoon were all heavyweight champions. HeaVYWEIGHT Boxing has changed a lot over the last 15 years and isnt as sexy as it once was because a new type of heayweight has come to the front which is the super-heavy. We are talking huge men who are athletic, well schooled, excellently prepared and true sportsman in & out of the ring. Lennox Lewis was the first of this bred and although the Klitschkos are very good they are a level bellow Lewis who is in my book almost the prefect modern heavy.

This is a very interesting debate and some great points being made.

Mark, just on the specific point above are you saying that on average there were more out of shape heavies in the 80s than there are now? I'm not sure I agree on that one

Seldon, Bruno, Dokes, Weaver, Coetzee, Witherspoon were not the best the division has seen but in terms of their physical condition I would say they came to the ring in better shape than Povetkin, Chaguev, Liakhovich, Boytsov or Ibragimov

[JC]

THANK YOU, people really tend to look back on previous eras in boxing with rose tinted glasses. The 80's was when the division was very poor with Don KIng controlling a lot of junkie, out of condtion, average heavies. Fighters like Dokes, Tubbs, Tucker, Bruno etc would of done ok in this modern era but they are not cleaning out the division. Tyson really cleaned out a very poor division and when he came along heavy weight boxing was at an all time low. Remember, people forget that fighters like Seldon, Bruno, Dokes, Weaver, Coetzee, Witherspoon were all heavyweight champions. HeaVYWEIGHT Boxing has changed a lot over the last 15 years and isnt as sexy as it once was because a new type of heayweight has come to the front which is the super-heavy. We are talking huge men who are athletic, well schooled, excellently prepared and true sportsman in & out of the ring. Lennox Lewis was the first of this bred and although the Klitschkos are very good they are a level bellow Lewis who is in my book almost the prefect modern heavy.

This is a very interesting debate and some great points being made.

Mark, just on the specific point above are you saying that on average there were more out of shape heavies in the 80s than there are now? I'm not sure I agree on that one

Seldon, Bruno, Dokes, Weaver, Coetzee, Witherspoon were not the best the division has seen but in terms of their physical condition I would say they came to the ring in better shape than Povetkin, Chaguev, Liakhovich, Boytsov or Ibragimov

I think now when we are talking evolution as the Heavies today are so much bigger in general. Fighters like Haye, Admeck are considered small today when 20 years ago they would of been the norm. We have to remember fighters like Larry Holmes who seem so big in his era was only 6´3. The problem with a lot of these huge men is their body shape doesnt help which can make them look more out of shape than they are.

To answer your question more directly, IMO the fighters today are in better condition than they were in the 80´s. Of course with the top fighters there isnt much difference but away from that i think they are better in general today as the sport is far more pro like, but in every era you got your slobs.

I think fighters today in general are in better condition, I just don't think its the case with the titlist/contender tier of heavyweights.

On the subject of size I think its a slightly different issue from condition. Povetkin doesn't necessarily need to come in lighter, just in better physical shape/having dieted properly.

[orbtastic]

It was clear watching some of those coke addled guys in the 80s that they actually had talent - speed, power and boxing fundamentals etc but their relative talent and lack of motivation allowed them to coast or just not put enough work in.

That said, some of them were overhyped - People saying Greg Page would be the new Ali etc?

[Quixall]

People have their own opinions and wont change them which is fair enough..................

Heavyweight boxing has gone into the backwaters and i just feel that people heap excuse after excuse as to why this has happened, but the simple fact is that it has happenned. For me its the total lack of quality outside of the Klitschko's, who themselves are nothing special. You don't need long winded debates on a boxing website to know that something is dreadfully wrong with the heavyweight division. If people can't see that there is a world of difference between Holyfield vs Bowe, Lewis vs Tyson etc etc rather than Klitschko vs Thompson or Klitschko vs Chambers then so be it

[Autobarn]

adamek was an excellent fighter but he would nevr have moved up to heavyweight had the recession not happened. he could no longer get TV fights, and so he made that cash in vs golota and it all went on from there...

[Quixall]

This is a fairly recent interview with Emanuel Steward on the current heavyweight scene



Heavyweight History with Emanuel Steward: Part 3 of 3
Exclusive Interview by Geoffrey Ciani - I was recently afforded the opportunity to have a lengthy discussion with the legendary trainer Emanuel Steward that focused on the rich history of the heavyweight division. During our hour long conversation, we discussed some of the most decorated personalities the sport has known and touched on some of the more memorable moments. This is final chapter in a three part series that explores heavyweight history with Emanuel Steward.

Q: On a somewhat related note Emanuel, a lot of fans claim that the heavyweight division is weak right now. Can you recall any time in history where the division had a similar state and what do you think needs to be done in order for this to recover in the eyes of the fans?

A: I think that the heavyweight division is the weakest that I ever saw it, that I can recall, I would put it this way, but if you look back at history it happens like this. I think it’s worse now because you don’t have anything coming from the amateurs. That’s what troubles me. It used to be weak, but you always had the George Foreman or even Klitschko. He is the last of the amateur program fighters from ’96. He’s the last product that came from the amateur system to the pros and that was what, about fourteen years ago now, and that’s what the problem is. There’s nothing coming from the amateur system, and I don’t see it worldwide, even these Cubans or whatever and the Russians. I don’t see much coming. I don’t see anything else coming up. It’s a weak heavyweight division and I don’t see anything too much coming up that’s going to make it any better in the future.

But if you look back through history, Joe Louis had that era when he went on the “Bum of the Month Club” as they called it and he was fighting with ‘Two Ton’ Tony Galento, the bar tenders, and this and that. Then I remember when Tyson was the same way. Nobody was up there for Mike. He was at the time considered fighting Pinklon Thomas and them, but I still thought those were better fighters but the public thought he was that dominating, but that was still a tough era. They said the same with Lennox. Lennox was having a weak division, but I thought that was better still. You still had guys such as Shannon Briggs and good competitive guys out there.

This is the weakest that I have ever seen it but it’s part of heavyweight history and that’s why we have these “Bum of the Month Clubs” and all that, and all of a sudden out of nowhere—somebody explodes on the scene. Right now, the biggest explosion has been David Haye and it’s nothing he did in the ring. Just verbally running his mouth he’s created a lot of excitement and a big buzz about himself. But it is weak, and I never saw it this weak and I hope that it will change but I just don’t even see it changing for maybe about another five years.


I would rather take the word of Emanuel Steward

[Tomasino]

Vitali is there for the taking. Shame there aren't no "mediocre" 80/90ss heavyweights ( honestly I could name 5 "average" Heavies from these years that would beat Vitali no doubt ) about to take advantage. Beating guys that Chad Dawson beat clearly years ago does not and will never impress me, sorry.

Please name these guys, I just can't imagine who they would be.

I think Vitali would give almost anyone a good go no matter the era. His height and reach are huge advantages but he is also fast, powerful, game and has an all time great chin. The uppercut Lennox hit him with was incredible and he barely flinched!!

I would also say that between them they ads the classiest heavyweight champions ever with the possible exception of Gene Tunney.

[gobbles]

People have their own opinions and wont change them which is fair enough..................

Heavyweight boxing has gone into the backwaters and i just feel that people heap excuse after excuse as to why this has happened, but the simple fact is that it has happenned. For me its the total lack of quality outside of the Klitschko's, who themselves are nothing special. You don't need long winded debates on a boxing website to know that something is dreadfully wrong with the heavyweight division. If people can't see that there is a world of difference between Holyfield vs Bowe, Lewis vs Tyson etc etc rather than Klitschko vs Thompson or Klitschko vs Chambers then so be it

That's not exactly comparing like with like, is it? How about Tyson v Tubbs, or Bonecrusher or an ageing Holmes?

[Tomasino]

Always makes me laugh when evolution is mentioned in regards to boxing. Yeah we are evolving at a very rapid rate!! Who are all these super evolved guys??? The Klits and Valuev? Nutrition, training methods play a part but evolution, cumoan!!

[Quixall]

Always makes me laugh when evolution is mentioned in regards to boxing. Yeah we are evolving at a very rapid rate!! Who are all these super evolved guys??? The Klits and Valuev? Nutrition, training methods play a part but evolution, cumoan!!

I agree