Was what Mayweather did illegal? Not if you go along with the "protect yourself at all times" school of thought. But, while it may not have been illegal, it was definitely a cheap shot.
Ortiz was bang out of order for the headbutt!! There is absolutely no excusing that at all , and certainly not when you're enjoying your first solid bit of success in the fight.
Did Joe Cortez call the two fighters to resume the action? (Without my Sky + I can't double check) Regardless, they were not brought from neutral corners and he was most definitely not paying attention to them at the time of the KO.
From the camera angle looking at Mayweather from behind Ortiz, he accepts the apology but then he looks at Cortez. He can clearly see the ref is looking away to someone at ringside (I'll assume the timekeeper) and unloads on Ortiz. So he was fully aware that the ref wasn't looking and that Ortiz was still awaiting instruction.
Why was ortiz so relaxed after the fight? Was his head still a bit scrambled to the point he didn't have a true grasp of the situation? Did he know he was on the way to losing the fight anyway. Is he just happy to have the $2.5M payday? Is calling it a "learning experience" sufficient? Is he just that polite?
Post-fight would have been a prime opportunity to let out any anger he may of been harbouring. Say you are outraged, admit your foul, but call out Mayweather for hitting the escape button and sneaking out the back door. That doubles your pay in the rematch and almost guarantees you said rematch.
Larry Merchant - It wasn't professional to get involved with Mayweather, but lets be honest, most of us are glad that Larry spoke out against that obnoxious loud-mouth that is Floyd Mayweather
Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
On the KO: I wonder, is it possible that they were all at fault?
First, Cortez said something like, 'OK, let's go', but not exactly definitively, and there was no "Box!" Then, almost immediately, he realizes he hasn't called time in, or perhaps goes to call time in if he hadn't indeed, asked the fighters to start, and Ortiz gets knocked out while waiting, at that time. Appalling refereeing. And Bunce was pretty close to the mark after the fight when he said Cortez is going to get someone killed. Thank God that was Floyd Mayweather throwing those shots and not Felix Trinidad or Tommy Hearns.
Second, what was Ortiz doing? He really ought to have been defending himself. I'm developing a little Teddy Atlas-esq theory that Ortiz was looking for a way out. The headbutt and the profuse, almost sycophantic apologies afterward were two warning signs. And then the fact that he was not raring to get boxing again, was another. Imagine Pacquaio or Hatton or Mayweather himself after the point get deducted. They would have been focussed, bouncing on their feet, almost having to be held back by the referee until he can call time in. Ortiz's mind was elsewhere. I think that physically within six minutes of going, but more than that, mentally, he was done.
Third, Floyd knew finewell what he was doing. Whatever you say about Cortez, and that Ortiz ought to have been defending himself, it would never have happened if not for Mayweather. I can just about forgive the first left hook, because it's the oldest trick in the book to try something fast and big immediately after a break like that. But he could see Ortiz wasn't ready, could see he didn't know if they'd started, could see that Ortiz was asking Cortez a question, and just had to go give him the bum's rush.
Yeah, all three of them are at fault.
First, Cortez said something like, 'OK, let's go', but not exactly definitively, and there was no "Box!" Then, almost immediately, he realizes he hasn't called time in, or perhaps goes to call time in if he hadn't indeed, asked the fighters to start, and Ortiz gets knocked out while waiting, at that time. Appalling refereeing. And Bunce was pretty close to the mark after the fight when he said Cortez is going to get someone killed. Thank God that was Floyd Mayweather throwing those shots and not Felix Trinidad or Tommy Hearns.
Second, what was Ortiz doing? He really ought to have been defending himself. I'm developing a little Teddy Atlas-esq theory that Ortiz was looking for a way out. The headbutt and the profuse, almost sycophantic apologies afterward were two warning signs. And then the fact that he was not raring to get boxing again, was another. Imagine Pacquaio or Hatton or Mayweather himself after the point get deducted. They would have been focussed, bouncing on their feet, almost having to be held back by the referee until he can call time in. Ortiz's mind was elsewhere. I think that physically within six minutes of going, but more than that, mentally, he was done.
Third, Floyd knew finewell what he was doing. Whatever you say about Cortez, and that Ortiz ought to have been defending himself, it would never have happened if not for Mayweather. I can just about forgive the first left hook, because it's the oldest trick in the book to try something fast and big immediately after a break like that. But he could see Ortiz wasn't ready, could see he didn't know if they'd started, could see that Ortiz was asking Cortez a question, and just had to go give him the bum's rush.
Yeah, all three of them are at fault.
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
Mayweather showed a fair bit of ruthlessness similar to what happened against Mosley (apart from Mosley thought it would be ok to have a conversation half way through a round)
I can forgive mayweather for his part in this just because Ortiz was so blatant with the attempted head butt.
Some people may say that one crime doesn't merit another but i also agree that Ortiz was looking for a way out, if mayweather didn't take him out at that particular point I'm quite confident there would have been another talking point somewhere in the fight. Possibly another head butt, low blow or Ortiz giving up....again.
I can forgive mayweather for his part in this just because Ortiz was so blatant with the attempted head butt.
Some people may say that one crime doesn't merit another but i also agree that Ortiz was looking for a way out, if mayweather didn't take him out at that particular point I'm quite confident there would have been another talking point somewhere in the fight. Possibly another head butt, low blow or Ortiz giving up....again.
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
Didn't a similar thing happen with John Murray?? Where his opponent didn't protect himself after a break and was KO'd??
Cheap but Mayweather would have won the fight.
Cheap but Mayweather would have won the fight.
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
Carbo and Gav have summed it all up between them really. The night turned into a stinker when what we really needed was for it to go the other way.
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
Do you think Mayweather makes more money for the Pacquaio fight from beating Ortiz how he did, or if he had stopped him later on?ArtOfWar wrote:The night turned into a stinker when what we really needed was for it to go the other way.
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ThereByTheGrace
- Cruiserweight
- Posts: 4016
- Joined: 04 Sep 2010, 05:22
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
If Ortiz didnt fight dirty then none of this wouldve happened. He was looking for a get out clause - keeps his fighting reputation intact and picks up a decent pay cheque without being outclassed over 12 rounds.
It's a fight - not a tea party - Mayweather perfectly right to take him out.
Think a few people on here are being overtly critical of Cortez (Hatton memories perhaps?); he did action for the fight to go on.
Mayweather was 3 up and winning the 4th. It was a one sided mismatch.
It's a fight - not a tea party - Mayweather perfectly right to take him out.
Think a few people on here are being overtly critical of Cortez (Hatton memories perhaps?); he did action for the fight to go on.
Mayweather was 3 up and winning the 4th. It was a one sided mismatch.
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
This is true. You are going to get people who want to believe that Ortiz was coming back into the fight just before the headbutt, but in my opinion the headbutt was born out of the frustration of not really being able to land cleanly on Mayweather.ThereByTheGrace wrote:If Ortiz didnt fight dirty then none of this wouldve happened. He was looking for a get out clause - keeps his fighting reputation intact and picks up a decent pay cheque without being outclassed over 12 rounds.
It's a fight - not a tea party - Mayweather perfectly right to take him out.
The only thing about the Cortez situation that bothers me is that he isn't watching the fighters.
At the end of the day, people are going to be annoyed because of the nature of the KO and because of their dislike for Mayweather. How outraged would those hoping for an Ortiz victory have been if he was the one that had earned the KO with Mayweathers hands down?
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goldenears
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 319
- Joined: 21 Jul 2010, 10:49
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
i think it was McCloskey's fight against an Italian for the European where a pretty similar thing happened, fighter trying to touch gloves and McCloskey going to war.
What was awful about this was the fact that fighters could possibly be trading punches with the referees back turned, it's an unthinkable error at this level, and certainly when Ortiz turned to the referee after the initial shot it was clear that he wasn't 'in' the fight and Mayweather took full unsporting advantage.
Needless to say no fighter should be taking a shot clean and unprotected like that and in many ways it's as bad as Abraham on Dirrell when Dirrell had taken a knee in terms of being dangerous to his opponent.
A referee who is fit for a fight of that magnitude cannot afford to get that process wrong as he is there to protect the fighters above all else, which you cannot do if you are not looking. If he still had things to do that involved him turning his back that meant he should have stopped the clock and stopped the fighters, seperated them properly and called them in to box when he was focussed.
Ortiz disgraceful headbutt, then supreme naivete, Mayweather brutal opportunism. Cortez, incredible incompetence.
All 3 to blame.
But yes, Floyd was going to win this fight easily, no matter how much heart Victor was showing. He was getting clocked with straight rights and combos and Floyd hadn't even gone to work yet. Victor was trying to throw bursts, but he would have gassed and been picked off embarrassingly like our own Mr Hatton was when he tried a pressure game without the skills to back it up.
What was awful about this was the fact that fighters could possibly be trading punches with the referees back turned, it's an unthinkable error at this level, and certainly when Ortiz turned to the referee after the initial shot it was clear that he wasn't 'in' the fight and Mayweather took full unsporting advantage.
Needless to say no fighter should be taking a shot clean and unprotected like that and in many ways it's as bad as Abraham on Dirrell when Dirrell had taken a knee in terms of being dangerous to his opponent.
A referee who is fit for a fight of that magnitude cannot afford to get that process wrong as he is there to protect the fighters above all else, which you cannot do if you are not looking. If he still had things to do that involved him turning his back that meant he should have stopped the clock and stopped the fighters, seperated them properly and called them in to box when he was focussed.
Ortiz disgraceful headbutt, then supreme naivete, Mayweather brutal opportunism. Cortez, incredible incompetence.
All 3 to blame.
But yes, Floyd was going to win this fight easily, no matter how much heart Victor was showing. He was getting clocked with straight rights and combos and Floyd hadn't even gone to work yet. Victor was trying to throw bursts, but he would have gassed and been picked off embarrassingly like our own Mr Hatton was when he tried a pressure game without the skills to back it up.
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
I don't think it matters much either way. Those two have kept everyone waiting for so long, they will get an insane amount of money if they do fight. The hype will go through the roof. I'd bet my house on the fight not delivering though. Floyd Mayweather will never be involved in a classic.GAV wrote:Do you think Mayweather makes more money for the Pacquaio fight from beating Ortiz how he did, or if he had stopped him later on?ArtOfWar wrote:The night turned into a stinker when what we really needed was for it to go the other way.
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Quixall
- Heavyweight
Re: Mayweather-Ortiz Talking Points
I think that Ortiz went out of fight mode after the butt because he went over to kiss Floyd and then went over again !!!
One explanation could be that Cortez said "Let's go......." and they began to move towards each other............
Then it looks as if Ortiz wants one final acknowledgement that he is sorry etc etc and he goes towards Floyd and Floyd has his hand slightly forward. Then Ortiz notices that Cortez is looking away at the side of the ring away from the action and it's as if Ortiz momentarily thinks " Are we supposed to fight........." then looks at the referee and gets punched by Floyd with the left hook, swiftly followed by the straight right hand. By this time Cortez has only just turned to the action and begins his count of Ortiz quite late and then Ortiz looks out of it and the fight gets stopped.
Ortiz reacted strangely to the butt and then once again after the fight, now whether that was embaressment i don't know, but i think that he had worked out in the opening three rounds that he wasn't going to win the fight. The strange thing was that neither Floyd nor Ortiz could fully explain what happenned in the post fight press conferences and yes you have to say that whilst what Floyd did wasn't illegal he could see what was happenning and took advantage of the situation....Cheap shot !!
As for Cortez, i think he needs to be retired !!
One explanation could be that Cortez said "Let's go......." and they began to move towards each other............
Then it looks as if Ortiz wants one final acknowledgement that he is sorry etc etc and he goes towards Floyd and Floyd has his hand slightly forward. Then Ortiz notices that Cortez is looking away at the side of the ring away from the action and it's as if Ortiz momentarily thinks " Are we supposed to fight........." then looks at the referee and gets punched by Floyd with the left hook, swiftly followed by the straight right hand. By this time Cortez has only just turned to the action and begins his count of Ortiz quite late and then Ortiz looks out of it and the fight gets stopped.
Ortiz reacted strangely to the butt and then once again after the fight, now whether that was embaressment i don't know, but i think that he had worked out in the opening three rounds that he wasn't going to win the fight. The strange thing was that neither Floyd nor Ortiz could fully explain what happenned in the post fight press conferences and yes you have to say that whilst what Floyd did wasn't illegal he could see what was happenning and took advantage of the situation....Cheap shot !!
As for Cortez, i think he needs to be retired !!
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goldenears
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 319
- Joined: 21 Jul 2010, 10:49