Sonny Liston's mysterious demise

Hesketh Vampire · Post by **Hesketh Vampire** » 20 Jul 2005, 15:32

Can someone enlighten me on the demise of the great Sonny Liston - what happened to the guy? Did he actually officially retire before his death?

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 20 Jul 2005, 16:57

mafia got hold of him, he lost to ali, he became a coward. "hurt shoulder " in first ali fight, and the bs KO in the second. was never the same fighter, and the mafia got hold of him n probly fixed all his fights after aliII cause they didnt mean as much

Hesketh Vampire · Post by **Hesketh Vampire** » 20 Jul 2005, 17:01

Hmm, simple as that?

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 20 Jul 2005, 17:06

pretty much..he was getting old too

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 20 Jul 2005, 17:07

Rory McCloskey wrote:mafia got hold of him, he lost to ali, he became a coward. "hurt shoulder " in first ali fight, and the bs KO in the second. was never the same fighter, and the mafia got hold of him n probly fixed all his fights after aliII cause they didnt mean as much

I'd like to see somewhere that says Liston had fixed fights after Ali II. I've neither heard that and sounds like bullshit talk.

To answer the orginal question, Liston died of a questionable (heroin I think) overdose that may have been accidental, an intentional suicide, or murder. Nobody knows for sure and most likely never will. Something that always strikes me is his grave, simply stating:

Sonny Liston
1932-1970
"A Man"

He was still active and spent a lot of time in Las Vegas in the casinos. ESPN did a good bio of him that I'd recommend. He wasn't the bear that his image portrays and how he will be remembered.

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 20 Jul 2005, 18:24

Subsequent fights
Liston took one year off from boxing, returning in 1966 and 1967, winning four bouts in a row in Sweden, including one over Amos Johnson. In 1968, he won seven fights, all by knockout, including one in Mexico.

In 1969, he had three wins and one loss. Among his wins was a 10 round decision over Billy Joiner at St. Louis, but in his last bout of that year, he lost by a knockout in nine to Leotis Martin at Las Vegas.Listons ties to the mafia plagued his career after the ali fights, most famously the "phantom punch"

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 20 Jul 2005, 18:38

Rory McCloskey wrote:Subsequent fights
Liston took one year off from boxing, returning in 1966 and 1967, winning four bouts in a row in Sweden, including one over Amos Johnson. In 1968, he won seven fights, all by knockout, including one in Mexico.

In 1969, he had three wins and one loss. Among his wins was a 10 round decision over Billy Joiner at St. Louis, but in his last bout of that year, he lost by a knockout in nine to Leotis Martin at Las Vegas.Listons ties to the mafia plagued his career after the ali fights, most famously the "phantom punch"

Yes, I know who he beat, but I would like to know where you have seen that those fights were fixed or if that is just your personal assessment of Liston's later career.

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 20 Jul 2005, 18:58

my personal assestment. didnt i say that when i mentioned it or did i just say it?

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 20 Jul 2005, 21:44

Liston was an all time great through 1964...I never believed that the 2nd Ali fight was 'fixed'...I'll never believe that...I do believe it wasn't totally on the level, but not that it was fixed (if you're going to fix a fight, you would try to make it look legtimate & the fight actually ended with both Ali and Liston fighting...watch the film...Walcott did the worst ref job in history)...Liston may have quit (his version of 'no mas')...he may have been scared of the Muslims' death threats...he may have have just gotten old and caught in the temple, too...no one has ever produced one shred of evidence against Liston...there were numerous investigations, but not one single shred of evidence that would hold up...and if anybody here can produce any...you'll make a small fortune...publishing companies & TV production companies like HBO would be interested, I'm sure...

Liston died as mysteriously as he lost the second Ali fight...heroin was mentioned...could he have been into herion in 1965...possibly playing a role in the outcome of that fight?..something I'll always wonder...for about 5 years, 1959-64 Liston was the best heavyweight in the world...his life went downhill fast after losing to a young Cassius Clay...and he did have some seedy connections...whose to say he didn't get into heroin after he lost his title...would explain a lot, would it not? (Think about Jeff Merritt for a second...in early 1974 he was 23-1, one of the hardest hitting heavies...once broke Shavers jaw in sparring...he's fighting light hitting Henry Clark...and gets KO'd in the 1st...and later, you find out he's been messing with heroin)...But people always love a good conspiracy...had to be the mob fixing fights and killing him later...Sorry, I just don't buy into that...I think a lot of that comes from Ali haters trying to make their typical 'Ali was no good' points...just my theory...it's as good as any other until I see real proof...I'm not holding my breath...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Jul 2005, 23:12

http://www.aussiebox.com.au/dettloff2.html

Thats not a bad article on the subject.

IMO no fight of his was ever fixed. I think he was a complex guy and his faith in himself and his personal fears played a role in some of the "hard to explain" stuff that happened to him.

s9s · Post by **s9s** » 21 Jul 2005, 02:28

Check out a book called Night Train: A Biography of Sonny Liston, it has all you need, gripping and sad.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 21 Jul 2005, 13:28

Hesketh Vampire wrote:Can someone enlighten me on the demise of the great Sonny Liston - what happened to the guy? Did he actually officially retire before his death?

I am pretty sure he had not officially retired before his strange death. There was talk of a herion overdose either by force or self inflicted accident, suicide.

However Sonny's widow has always strongly mentained that Sonny had a morbid fear of needles and would have never injected himself.

The major issue with Listons death is that his body was left undiscovered for 5-7 days so it had started to badly decompose so it was very difficult for doctors to diagnose what the course of death was.

THE DANCING MASTER · Post by **THE DANCING MASTER** » 21 Jul 2005, 14:12

Like a number of other things concerning Liston, the truth will never be really known.

pound per pound · Post by **pound per pound** » 21 Jul 2005, 16:32

Sweet Scientist wrote:Liston was an all time great through 1964...I never believed that the 2nd Ali fight was 'fixed'...I'll never believe that...I do believe it wasn't totally on the level, but not that it was fixed (if you're going to fix a fight, you would try to make it look legtimate & the fight actually ended with both Ali and Liston fighting...watch the film...Walcott did the worst ref job in history)...Liston may have quit (his version of 'no mas')...he may have been scared of the Muslims' death threats...he may have have just gotten old and caught in the temple, too...no one has ever produced one shred of evidence against Liston...there were numerous investigations, but not one single shred of evidence that would hold up...and if anybody here can produce any...you'll make a small fortune...publishing companies & TV production companies like HBO would be interested, I'm sure...

Liston died as mysteriously as he lost the second Ali fight...heroin was mentioned...could he have been into herion in 1965...possibly playing a role in the outcome of that fight?..something I'll always wonder...for about 5 years, 1959-64 Liston was the best heavyweight in the world...his life went downhill fast after losing to a young Cassius Clay...and he did have some seedy connections...whose to say he didn't get into heroin after he lost his title...would explain a lot, would it not? (Think about Jeff Merritt for a second...in early 1974 he was 23-1, one of the hardest hitting heavies...once broke Shavers jaw in sparring...he's fighting light hitting Henry Clark...and gets KO'd in the 1st...and later, you find out he's been messing with heroin)...But people always love a good conspiracy...had to be the mob fixing fights and killing him later...Sorry, I just don't buy into that...I think a lot of that comes from Ali haters trying to make their typical 'Ali was no good' points...just my theory...it's as good as any other until I see real proof...I'm not holding my breath...

Sweet Scientist,

The second Liston vs Ali fight was likely fixed. For openers, no one wanted to host the event, which is why the venue was a high school gymnasium in the state of Maine. Not exactly a prime time location for a highly charged rematch.

Liston was ordered to take a dive. A deal was struck between the Black Muslims, who collected laundered money thought tax free religious donations and the mob. I have no direct proof of this, but the Black Muslim group was in with Ali, and very badly wanted to use the heavyweight champion of the world as symbol for the Black Muslim movement. Malcom X himself, and Alijah Mohammed visited Ali in public and private.

The reasons I beleive the fight is fixed mostly has to do with no body wanting to host the event. Think about that for a second. What gambling resort could be taken seriously if they hosted a fixed fight?

On to the fight itself. Ali, who has never produced a one punch KO in his life, drops Liston a man who took bombs and only had one flash knock down to date on the canvas.

Liston gets hit, then goes down from a punch that many at ringside said couldn’t bust a grape. The reek of a fix was exposed when Liston can be seen looking up at Walcott waiting for him to count him out! Ali shouted to Liston, get up, nobody will believe this! An interesting thing to say, no? Ali knew the blow was not solid enough. Wait there's more. Walcott did not get to the count in time, so Liston rolls over like a trained dog, trying to buy more time! After too much time happens, the fix becomes obvious, and Liston has to get back up. Liston got to his feet and looked fine. The match itself ended with both guys on their feet. The wise guys cleaned up betting the underdog to win. The fix was in.

This is not the first time Liston was accused of participating in a fixed fight. Many beleive that Liston was supposed to throw the fight vs Chuck Werner. Liston went on to win, and then died from an apparent overdose that had foul play written all over it.

The fixed fight does not take anything away from Ali's legacy. Lot of boxing fights has been fixed under mob influence. It is well known that the mob controlled boxing in the 50's and 60's, and even the great Jake LaMotta had to throw a fight , to get a shot at the title.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 21 Jul 2005, 17:48

I read Pound per Pound's contribution and the most electifying, fascinating and overall compelling portion of his statement that I find absolutely credible and wholeheartedly agree with is the following......

Pound per Pound Wrote

Sweet Scientist,

I have no direct proof of this,

I think that aspect of his dissertation is for all intents and purposes a masterful distilling of language. It contains embedded within it, all that any of us need to know regarding this topic. It is brilliant in it's efficiency and how well it captures the soul and truth of the topic. I wish I would have said it myself.

Now as for the fictional dynamics I rather liked them as well.

Do not forget..........THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE!

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 21 Jul 2005, 18:32

pound per pound wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:Liston was an all time great through 1964...I never believed that the 2nd Ali fight was 'fixed'...I'll never believe that...I do believe it wasn't totally on the level, but not that it was fixed (if you're going to fix a fight, you would try to make it look legtimate & the fight actually ended with both Ali and Liston fighting...watch the film...Walcott did the worst ref job in history)...Liston may have quit (his version of 'no mas')...he may have been scared of the Muslims' death threats...he may have have just gotten old and caught in the temple, too...no one has ever produced one shred of evidence against Liston...there were numerous investigations, but not one single shred of evidence that would hold up...and if anybody here can produce any...you'll make a small fortune...publishing companies & TV production companies like HBO would be interested, I'm sure...

Liston died as mysteriously as he lost the second Ali fight...heroin was mentioned...could he have been into herion in 1965...possibly playing a role in the outcome of that fight?..something I'll always wonder...for about 5 years, 1959-64 Liston was the best heavyweight in the world...his life went downhill fast after losing to a young Cassius Clay...and he did have some seedy connections...whose to say he didn't get into heroin after he lost his title...would explain a lot, would it not? (Think about Jeff Merritt for a second...in early 1974 he was 23-1, one of the hardest hitting heavies...once broke Shavers jaw in sparring...he's fighting light hitting Henry Clark...and gets KO'd in the 1st...and later, you find out he's been messing with heroin)...But people always love a good conspiracy...had to be the mob fixing fights and killing him later...Sorry, I just don't buy into that...I think a lot of that comes from Ali haters trying to make their typical 'Ali was no good' points...just my theory...it's as good as any other until I see real proof...I'm not holding my breath...

Sweet Scientist,

The second Liston vs Ali fight was likely fixed. For openers, no one wanted to host the event, which is why the venue was a high school gymnasium in the state of Maine. Not exactly a prime time location for a highly charged rematch.

Liston was ordered to take a dive. A deal was struck between the Black Muslims, who collected laundered money thought tax free religious donations and the mob. I have no direct proof of this, but the Black Muslim group was in with Ali, and very badly wanted to use the heavyweight champion of the world as symbol for the Black Muslim movement. Malcom X himself, and Alijah Mohammed visited Ali in public and private.

The reasons I beleive the fight is fixed mostly has to do with no body wanting to host the event. Think about that for a second. What gambling resort could be taken seriously if they hosted a fixed fight?

On to the fight itself. Ali, who has never produced a one punch KO in his life, drops Liston a man who took bombs and only had one flash knock down to date on the canvas.

Liston gets hit, then goes down from a punch that many at ringside said couldn’t bust a grape. The reek of a fix was exposed when Liston can be seen looking up at Walcott waiting for him to count him out! Ali shouted to Liston, get up, nobody will believe this! An interesting thing to say, no? Ali knew the blow was not solid enough. Wait there's more. Walcott did not get to the count in time, so Liston rolls over like a trained dog, trying to buy more time! After too much time happens, the fix becomes obvious, and Liston has to get back up. Liston got to his feet and looked fine. The match itself ended with both guys on their feet. The wise guys cleaned up betting the underdog to win. The fix was in.

This is not the first time Liston was accused of participating in a fixed fight. Many beleive that Liston was supposed to throw the fight vs Chuck Werner. Liston went on to win, and then died from an apparent overdose that had foul play written all over it.

The fixed fight does not take anything away from Ali's legacy. Lot of boxing fights has been fixed under mob influence. It is well known that the mob controlled boxing in the 50's and 60's, and even the great Jake LaMotta had to throw a fight , to get a shot at the title.

...Can't deny you might be right...but why the hell would a guy taking a dive do it in the first round under circumstanses like that...wouldn't you make it 'look better'? Stick around for 5 or 6 rounds? Wouldn't you think , 'man...nobody's going to believe this...' It seems too obvious to me...but...who really knows...

I still think heroin might have had something to do with it...just a hunch...his wife says he didn't like needles...but wives don't always know everything husbands do...

...if you know what I mean... 8)

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 21 Jul 2005, 18:56

While the subject is hot, does anyone know how they pieced together Liston's day of death? Its always been given as 12/30, but he had been alone for a week or two. If that couldn't figure out what officially killed him (I believe heart failure and lung congestion were given as causes), how would they know a day of death? Did they estimate it?

Also, if anybody has any newspaper articles or links about Liston's death, could you post them here or PM me them. I'd be interested to see what the public was thinking and what official reports said around the surrounding days and weeks of his death.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 21 Jul 2005, 20:32

http://www.secondsout.com/Legends/updat ... 3&cs=12115

this give a couple of takes on it.

If you slow mo the video on Ali Liston II you can see Liston is hit, but it does not look like it should be that damaging. But with Ali in his prime he is so fast and sometimes speed is power.

I'm not buyin the conspiracy theories, I have an easy time thinking Liston cracked in a psyche way and may not have had it in him to do his best that night. Liston was not a strong guy mentally and both the Clay and Ali fights were sort of mental breakdown moments for him.

He was fighting a strange loud guy who camped out around his house and shouted at him, a guy who took on a strange name, changed to a strange religion and made a big deal of it. Pretty disconcerting stuff for the early 60's. Liston was quoted over and over again that he thought Ali or Clay was crazy. This coming from a guy who was used to having everyone else be very careful even tip toeing around him because they thought HE was crazy.

In this case Ali figured out a way to intimidate the intimadator and it worked.

Liston could not get it up for the fight because he had been beaten mentaly but thats a far cry from a fix. If that was a fix then everytime Mike Tyson has had a mental breakdown thats a fix too.

A perfect Liston would have been a better challenger for Ali maybe but Ali handed some other guys in Liston's league some pretty good beatings even when they were trying there best.

It came from a time when conspiracies about everything were popular.
Now as for Paul McCartney actually being dead and replaced with a look alike that is another matter. That of course is a matter of record.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 21 Jul 2005, 20:51

Why doesn't anyone ever accuse Oliver McCall of being involved in a fix in the second Lewis fight? Or Andrew Golota in the Bowe fights?Or even Tyson in the ear biting fight? All three demonstrated behavior that guaranteed their defeats.....everybody always picks on Sonny...without any proof, just speculation...

...there are dozens of possible explainations for that fight other than 'fix'...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Jul 2005, 10:32

Listen to the Science guy....as in many of these instances he has carefully examined the documented forensic info and has made a determination. In this case as in well over 71% of these cases he has come to precisely the correct conclusion.

I of course will remain here to serve as a backup in those cases where he mistakely follows a red herring to a wrong conclusion.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 22 Jul 2005, 20:44

Hey Rory, Liston must have been a great method actor if the Leotis Martin fight was fixed. That's a very brutal knockout.

So, according to you, it was a bit of a hoax was it? Thanks for enlightening me, sonny.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 22 Jul 2005, 20:56

BoxBuzz wrote:http://www.secondsout.com/Legends/updat ... 3&cs=12115

this give a couple of takes on it.

...it certainly offers a sound explaination for the first fight...I didn't realise Liston only had 4 fights totaling less than 6 rounds in the three years leading up to that fight...plus he was getting old...no wonder young Cassius Clay was able to scream, "I upset the world, I upset the world"...

Sonny Liston's mysterious demise

Sonny Liston's mysterious demise

Re: Sonny Liston's mysterious demise