George Gardner

[coreygardner]

I've been researching George Gardner, the Light - Heavyweight Champion of the World. It is amazing how he never weighed any more than 175 pounds and is still rated as one of the top 500 heavyweights of all time. Gardner was a great fighter and was once rated at number one.

Does anyone know why Tommy Ryan declined to fight him in 1901 when he was the top contender?

Gardner claimed the title after he knocked out Kid Carter in 1901 and then after he knocked out Jack Root in 1902 at Utah.

[Ambling Alp]

I will take a stab at this. There are several possiblities why Ryan did not want the fight (if that was the case.)

1. He didn't think much of the light heavyweight title ans saw little reason to go for that title.
2. He did think a lot of it, but thought that it would be a risk fighting the #1 contender.
3. The money just was not there.
4. He didn't think he would have had a good chance of beating Gardner.

It would have interesting to see Ryan go for the ligh-heavyweight title. If he would have won it, he would have been the welterweight, middleweight, and light-heavyweight champion in his career. He really would have been considered more of a legend.

[The Great John L]

It would have interesting to see Ryan go for the ligh-heavyweight title. If he would have won it, he would have been the welterweight, middleweight, and light-heavyweight champion in his career. He really would have been considered more of a legend.

Yes, more of a legend. However, while often times overlooked, he is already a legend.

[raylawpc]

I will take a stab at this. There are several possiblities why Ryan did not want the fight (if that was the case.)

1. He didn't think much of the light heavyweight title ans saw little reason to go for that title.
2. He did think a lot of it, but thought that it would be a risk fighting the #1 contender.
3. The money just was not there.
4. He didn't think he would have had a good chance of beating Gardner.

It would have interesting to see Ryan go for the ligh-heavyweight title. If he would have won it, he would have been the welterweight, middleweight, and light-heavyweight champion in his career. He really would have been considered more of a legend.

You may be unaware that, in 1901, Gardner was still campaigning as a middleweight. He was trying to get Ryan to fight him for the middleweight title.

As to the light-heavyweight title, Ryan was not a very big fellow. He only stood a tad over 5'7" and would have had to really "bulk up" to get over 155. Ryan was a "small" middleweight even when the division limit was 158.

[Ambling Alp]

I guess I misunderstood what the original poster what saying. I thought that he was saying that Gardner was the #1 lightheavyweight contender. (Had I looked at the year more closely, I would have realized that since there wasn't a lightheavyweight title yet, then he must have been talking about a middleweight fight. )
I had not heard of Ryan not wanting to fight Gardner before. I was thinking that it was a stretch for Ryan to fight at lightheavyweight.

As far his original question, it seems that we are left with either he didn't think he would successfully defend his middleweight title against Gardner (I doubt that. Ryan probably would have won.)

More likely the money wasn't good enough. He could have had an injury or something like that as well.

[raylawpc]

I guess I misunderstood what the original poster what saying. I thought that he was saying that Gardner was the #1 lightheavyweight contender. (Had I looked at the year more closely, I would have realized that since there wasn't a lightheavyweight title yet, then he must have been talking about a middleweight fight. )
I had not heard of Ryan not wanting to fight Gardner before. I was thinking that it was a stretch for Ryan to fight at lightheavyweight.

As far his original question, it seems that we are left with either he didn't think he would successfully defend his middleweight title against Gardner (I doubt that. Ryan probably would have won.)

More likely the money wasn't good enough. He could have had an injury or something like that as well.

I looked through my Ryan file and didn't find anything about it accept that Gardner did challenge him. I didn't have any clippings with a response from Ryan.

In the Spring of 1901, Ryan had a particularly difficult fight with Tommy West, which he won in 17. He also toyed with retirement. That's all I know about it.

[coreygardner]

I think George Gardner would have knocked out Tommy Ryan. I mean Ryan was a little guy and size doesn't matter in a fight, but George Gardner is still rated as one of the top 500 heavyweights when he was never even a heavyweight. Gardner was once rated at number one along with Jack Root and Marvin Hart.

I honestly think the Gardner - Fitzsimmons fight may have been fixed. I read an article on it and it seems like George gave it to him and they were making history, even though no one came to see the fight. In my opinion, I think if Ryan would have thought he could beat Gardner, he would have challenged the number one contender.

I think George Gardner would have reigned as the Middleweight Champion of the World for a long time.

Maybe the Irish in him just was more fond of drinking than training.

[raylawpc]

I think George Gardner would have knocked out Tommy Ryan. I mean Ryan was a little guy and size doesn't matter in a fight, but George Gardner is still rated as one of the top 500 heavyweights when he was never even a heavyweight. Gardner was once rated at number one along with Jack Root and Marvin Hart.

I honestly think the Gardner - Fitzsimmons fight may have been fixed. I read an article on it and it seems like George gave it to him and they were making history, even though no one came to see the fight. In my opinion, I think if Ryan would have thought he could beat Gardner, he would have challenged the number one contender.

I think George Gardner would have reigned as the Middleweight Champion of the World for a long time.

Maybe the Irish in him just was more fond of drinking than training.

No. 1. The only guy who knocked out Tommy Ryan was Kid McCoy, and that was when Tommy was out-of-shape. Tommy sparred regularly with Jeffries from 1899 to 1900, and Jeffries said he was as tough a little man as he ever boxed.

No. 2. Fitz was still a good fighter in 1903. he had just given Jeffries eight rounds of hell the year before. If I recall correctly, Fitz beat the bejeezus out of Gardner for the first 10 rounds, and then Gardner got back in the fight over the last ten. That doesn't sound like Gardner threw the fight.

No. 3. Gardner would have stayed middleweight champion only until Stanley Ketchel came along.

[coreygardner]

Most websites and books make an error when they state that Fitzsimmons knocked George down four times.

I had read a news article (it was awhile back) and it stated that it was a boring fight and that Fitzsimmons knocked George down TWICE, but he was never in any real danger of being out.

Gardner only threw one real punch and that was at the end of the fight from what the New York Times stated.

You can't always believe what the legends state.

I don't think Gardner or Fitzsimmons ever really were involved in several staged fights, but it is a theory. George Gardner was a thrilling light - heavyweight of his era. He was a scrappy type fighter who was aggressive.

I will say that Fitzsimmons did kill two men in the ring and had a hell of a punch, although his looks were not threatening at all.

[Senya13]

Most websites and books make an error when they state that Fitzsimmons knocked George down four times.

I had read a news article (it was awhile back) and it stated that it was a boring fight and that Fitzsimmons knocked George down TWICE, but he was never in any real danger of being out.

Gardner only threw one real punch and that was at the end of the fight from what the New York Times stated.

You can't always believe what the legends state.

Next-day San Francisco Call
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... -1/seq-10/
Gardner was down twice in the 4th round ("He nearly had Gardner out twice"), once in the 5th and once in the 14th. Round-by-round reports state that Gardner was also down in the 13th round from a hard right to the mouth at the end of the round. Some sources claim that Gardner was knocked down, and some that he slipped at the end of the 10th round.
Non-local wire: "Several times Fitz apparently had Gardner almost out".
NY Times had pretty poor coverage of non-local fights during those times.

[coreygardner]

I actually just read this article.

It even says that those at ringside suggested it was fixed. And Fitzsimmons would have never finished George Gardner in three rounds, whether his hands were good or not. NO One ever finished George Gardner in less than 7 rounds. Tony Ross beat him by TKO in 7 Rounds in his last fight and that was an old George. It took big bad Al Kaufman 14 rounds and tough Jim Flynn a whole 18 rounds, and big Mike Schrek a full 20 rounds to have him counted out. If Gardner lasted 20 rounds with Jack Johnson, then he could definitely last 20 rounds with Fitzsimmons.

Fitz was KO'd in 2 rounds with Jack Johnson, who by the way was really the only real heavyweight of that era.

I think the newspaper reporter had a thing for Fitz. It sounds like fan wank. It actually says that Fitzsimmons looked rougher than George 8)

Has anyone seen a picture of Bob Fitzsimmons??

The guy looked like a toothpick. I've seen the Gardner vs. Fitzsimmons standoff photograph. George Gardner actually had muscles and a chest, and Fitzsimmons looked like the guy from the Big Bang Theory. Neither of them really looked like boxers though, just like average joes.

I doubt Gardner was afraid of wimpy looking Fitzsimmons. Yeah he had killed two men in the ring. But, George had fought Peter Maher and big, black Jack Johnson.

I think every fighter has a bad night, but sadly George gets tagged all the time for his boring fight with the "legendary" Bob Fitzsimmons. It says he brought in $16, 000 dollars.

Does anyone know how much money the Gardner - Root fight brought in?

[Senya13]

It was a very poor fight. The reporter of SF Call wasn't a fan boy of Fitz, because Gardner looked ridiculously bad according to SF Chronicle (reported by Harry Cashman, I suppose) and SF Examiner (reported by W. W. Naughton), too. Same opinion was expressed by Young Corbett who reported for New York Evening World.

[coreygardner]

Yeah that guy was a fan boy of Fitz.

If Gardner had looked ridiculously bad, he would have been knocked out by Fitzsimmons like Philadelphia Jack.

Yes it was a very poor fight, very boring from what I've read.

[Senya13]

He got a lot of praise in the press prior to the bout, yet comes fight time, Fitzsimmons looks bad, but Gardner looks much-much worse than him, all the things he was praised for are lacking, and he's fighting like he's afraid of Fitz most of the fight. Reminds me of Bill Squires, prior to his bout with Tommy Burns. A lot of praise and expectations, and a total failure.

[coreygardner]

It definitely wasn't George Gardner in his usual form. A newspaper in 1926 headlined: "Gardner Was The Perfect Type of Slugger".

Except he tried a different tactic against Fitzsimmons.

All I am saying is sometimes popular boxers get way too much praise.

I think George Gardner was a great fighter. He was rated at #1 during his career, only for a month like Tami Mauriello and Jack Root, but still a top - notcher. Sadly he had a different game plan in defense of his title.

[Senya13]

The thing is, it's not always the fighter who's choosing to use different style than is usual for him. Sometimes they are forced to do so.

Say, Pedlar Palmer did choose to fight Terry McGovern in a completely different style than was typical for him. It's wasn't McGovern's doing, but Palmer's own (wrong) choice to be aggressive, to rush and infight.

On the other hand, say, Matt Wells didn't fight his typical fight against Packey McFarland, which, in my opinion, was because Packey made him fight differently.

Which of two cases had taken place in the Fitz-Gardner bout is open for debate. In my opinion, it was Fitz who made him look bad. Comparisons with Fitz-O'Brien bout don't work here, because O'Brien was a much better boxer than Gardner (and was still improving). Their first bout was a draw based on several next-day reports I read (and no, there was no TKO victory for Fitz in that bout).