If Ali of Manila met Frazier of FOTC, what happens?

[yancey]

and vice versa, if you wish.

Silly question, I know.

I'm really trying to get a feel for how much both fighters lost over the years of their trilogy.

[The Great John L]

Do you really need to ask?

[raylawpc]

I think it would have been Ali who was still on his stool at the beginning of the 15th round.

[BoxBuzz]

Answer to the question: And what you probably want to hear:

Ali would have been flattened in a few rounds.


On the other hand if Frazier at age 8 would have attempted to steal a 16 year old Ali's bicycle and Cassius found out who did it......well......... it would not be pretty.

[yancey]

Answer to the question: And what you probably want to hear:

Ali would have been flattened in a few rounds.


On the other hand if Frazier at age 8 would have attempted to steal a 16 year old Ali's bicycle and Cassius found out who did it......well......... it would not be pretty.

I was truly trying to get a feel for how much both fighters had declined from '71 to '75, that is all.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Its a case of careful what you wish for.

Frazier wins, there is every chance he goes on with his career, & that couldve turned out very badly.

[hhaehre]

Frazier would have beaten Ali badly and probably stopped him on his feet. On the other hand FOTC Ali would have beaten Manila Frazier much worse than what actually transpired in Manila.

[klompton]

Frazier would have beaten Ali badly and probably stopped him on his feet. On the other hand FOTC Ali would have beaten Manila Frazier much worse than what actually transpired in Manila.

[Ezzard]

Ali's decline was gradual.

He lost his absolute peak years but because of that I believe he gained longevity.

Frazier, like most swarmers, burnt out far quicker.

[yancey]

Ali's decline was gradual.

He lost his absolute peak years but because of that I believe he gained longevity.

Frazier, like most swarmers, burnt out far quicker.

Agreed.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Frazier from the FOTC beats any version of Ali.

[Ezzard]

Frazier from the FOTC beats any version of Ali.

If they fought once a year for every year of their careers then Ali wins more than Frazier. But on the best night of their careers... Frazier takes it.

[Ambling Alp]

If they fought 10 times wins 7 out of 10. On his best night Ali beats Frazier. Frazier was great, Ali was better. Ali would hit Frazier more than vice versa and Frazier would not knock him out.
If that version of Ali could that competitive with Frazier, than logically a prime version of Ali should be able to beat Frazier at both of their best.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If they fought 10 times wins 7 out of 10. On his best night Ali beats Frazier. Frazier was great, Ali was better. Ali would hit Frazier more than vice versa and Frazier would not knock him out.
If that version of Ali could that competitive with Frazier, than logically a prime version of Ali should be able to beat Frazier at both of their best.

[The Great John L]

Frazier from the FOTC beats any version of Ali.

Agreed.

[BoxBuzz]

I think any fair assessment of each at their peak becomes a Pickem.....I favor Ali.

[Ambling Alp]

I don't even see why this is a pick em. Frazier was at his best or atleast very close to it when he fought Ali the first time. Ali was at what 75, 80%? It was still a very competitive fight. If Frazier really would have beaten ali at his best, he would have beaten this verion of Ali much easier.
Ali at 100% would win, probably something like 10-5.

In their first fight, Ali obviously didn't have the mobility, timing and stamina that he did when he was at his best.
Ali would throw more punches, connect at a higher rate, and get hit less. He would not get tired as easily.

[raylawpc]

I don't even see why this is a pick em. Frazier was at his best or atleast very close to it when he fought Ali the first time. Ali was at what 75, 80%? It was still a very competitive fight. If Frazier really would have beaten ali at his best, he would have beaten this verion of Ali much easier.
Ali at 100% would win, probably something like 10-5.

In their first fight, Ali obviously didn't have the mobility, timing and stamina that he did when he was at his best.
Ali would throw more punches, connect at a higher rate, and get hit less. He would not get tired as easily.

You can't know that. Ali never fought anyone 1964-1967 that put the pressure on him the way Joe would have.

[yancey]

I don't even see why this is a pick em. Frazier was at his best or atleast very close to it when he fought Ali the first time. Ali was at what 75, 80%? It was still a very competitive fight. If Frazier really would have beaten ali at his best, he would have beaten this verion of Ali much easier.
Ali at 100% would win, probably something like 10-5.

In their first fight, Ali obviously didn't have the mobility, timing and stamina that he did when he was at his best.
Ali would throw more punches, connect at a higher rate, and get hit less. He would not get tired as easily.

Ali was considerably more than "75,80%" for the FOTC.

He actually fought a hell of a fight that night.

[ThatOne]

The majorityof boxing historians, analysts, and former boxers including those who faced a pre exile and post exile Ali agree that Ali definitely lost something during the layoff.

Cus D'Amato who watched Ali train for the FOTC saw Ali being caught on the ropes during training sessions and remarked that the split second he lost in speed was the difference in getting caught and not getting caught. What's Cus D'Amato's incentive to lie?

Chuvalo fought a pre and post exile Ali and said the pre-Ali was definitely better. What's his incentive to lie?

[Ambling Alp]

The majority of ring historians analysts, and former boxers think that. However, we are on the BOTP Forum where anti-Ali comments are pretty common.

Interesting that Chuvalo was brought up. Chuvalo was a pressure fighter. Chuvalo fought Ali in 1966. Ali won almost every round. This was probably the most competitive fight Ali had during his prime.

It's pretty obvious that he lost a lot during the layoff. Some of the ring rust did come off and he did look better in most of his fights from 1972-1975 than he did in the first Frazier fight. However, he was never as good as he was during the mid-1960s. Watch any of his fights from the his first title reign. He looked much better than in any fight in the 1970s. It is pretty obvious.

No trainer is going to suggest that his fighter take off 3 and half years. Obviously he was never going to be the same again. What % he was at during the Frazier fight is arguable. It certainly was not close to 100%. I don't see how he could have been much more than 80%. Sure Ali still fought a helleuva fight. 80% of Ali is still pretty good.

Frazier never had to fight a fighter that could move like a prime Ali. The bottom line is that prime Ali is going to hit Frazier a lot more than vice versa. No way is Frazier going to win a decision. Frazier could not knock Ali out. If Frazier isn't going to win by decision or knockout, what is the arguement? Disqualification?

The Anti-Ali people can't have it both ways. You can't legitimately argue that Frazer was suddenly way past it when Ali beat him 1974, and then try and say that Ali was close to his best in 1971 after that long layoff.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't even see why this is a pick em. Frazier was at his best or atleast very close to it when he fought Ali the first time. Ali was at what 75, 80%? It was still a very competitive fight. If Frazier really would have beaten ali at his best, he would have beaten this verion of Ali much easier.
Ali at 100% would win, probably something like 10-5.

In their first fight, Ali obviously didn't have the mobility, timing and stamina that he did when he was at his best.
Ali would throw more punches, connect at a higher rate, and get hit less. He would not get tired as easily.

You can't know that. Ali never fought anyone 1964-1967 that put the pressure on him the way Joe would have.

Yup, I think Ali was more durable in 71. I would give Joe a good chance at stopping a younger Clay.

[Ambling Alp]

He was more durable in 1971? That makes no sense. You don't get more durable as you age and have a long layoff.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It makes plenty of sense, he was larger and more sturdy. It's not like he was 40 years old. But I don't expect any reasonable discussion with you about your beloved. It's better talking to a wall. He wasn't coming off of a 3 and a half year layoff. He had just knocked out two top contenders. That Ali would beat most anyone but Frazier.

Edit: He was harder to hit in his youth. But when he got tagged he was more susceptible to being hurt.

[BoxBuzz]

It appears that the Negative reactionary stuff about Ali is a bigger deal than the minion love. I have Ali on my list of fighters I like very much, and have probably been more criticized for that than my fanatically positive opinion about Archie Moore......because Moore has attracted far less nay sayers. Moore is not a very polarizing figure....Joe Louis is another that may fall in the catagory of non polarizing. Some like them some don't but no one hates either Moore Or Louis.

Ali? The population is definitely "bi polar" on that subject.