marciano/moore revisited

[Jaclem]

...i saw the fight on live tv....big theatre screen...and have looked at the tape often. i've also..often.. read archie saying that the eight count rule was not in effect, yet the referee...when archie knocked marciano down.....gave rocky an eight count which gave him time to recover..and that cost moore the knockout. the trouble was every time i read archie's complaint it was too long after i'd watched the tapes and couldn't recall if he was right.

he wasn't. just saw it again on espnc classics...a few hours ago. archie smacked marciano with a perfect right....marciano went down...got up at the count of four...and the referee waved moore in to continue. no mishandling. i do think moore had to be almost as stunned as rocky...a really pip of a right hand perfectly timed and thrown....by the man who ended his career with the most knockouts ever....and marciano gets up at the count of four! had to be discouraging.

for the record ..the referee was harry kessler...who...in some past fights had shown a bias against moore....both in handling the battles and in the judging....referees judged then. but in this one he is completely fair (though i think i'll time his counting over moore...struck me as POSSIBLY a tad fast....but he was going along with the timekeeper) and handled the fight well.

i also think it was one of marciano's better fights.....good balance....didn't miss a lot....showed more over all control than in his previous ones.

[tiredoldngrey]

Bud Schulberg said of that fight that Archie put on a magnificnt display of the manly art of self defense..but was fighting a tank. He also said that, when Moore looks back at the 2nd and wonders what he did wrong, the answer is nothing. One of my favorite pieces ever written about a fight

[tonyevs]

In Archie Moores book `ABC` he mentions that Marciano had vaseline on his face which Archie complained to the referee about before the fight started.

Nowadays vaseline is as common in the corner as a bucket but when was it used on a regular basis? because Archie certainly didn`t like it.

[Jaclem]

.sometimes a referee will ask a fighters corner to removed "excess" vaseline....but an acceptable amount has been around for years.

a lot of times archie would complain about something before a fight...justy part of his psychology in either bugging the other corner or hoping to put something in the referees head.


while we're here..."vaseline" is actually the name of the company that makes the product...which is called petroleum jelly.

old joke: why did the married couple buy so much vaseline?"
"to put on the bedroom doorknob to keep the kids out."

(i didn't say it was good...and admitted it was old!)

[Sweet Scientist]

...i saw the fight on live tv....big theatre screen...

How much did you have to pay to get in, back in 1955?

[BoxBuzz]

Big Screen Theatre was the only way to see a lot of fights into the early and mid 70's. The cost would vary but as I recall I had to save to be able to afford to go. Back then a sawbuck was harder to come by.

I saw the 'No Mas' fight in Honolulu on a very big screen. I saw the Patterson/Liston fights and a lot of Ali fights in Phoenix as well as some late 50's fights there.

Saw Archie Moore their live and in person. I sure liked Archie I think he is underated.

[Sweet Scientist]

Big Screen Theatre was the only way to see a lot of fights into the early and mid 70's. The cost would vary but as I recall I had to save to be able to afford to go. Back then a sawbuck was harder to come by.

I saw the 'No Mas' fight in Honolulu on a very big screen. I saw the Patterson/Liston fights and a lot of Ali fights in Phoenix as well as some late 50's fights there.

Saw Archie Moore their live and in person. I sure liked Archie I think he is underated.

...Didn't you mention having a 5 year old on another thread? ...and you were sitting at Theater Network TV bouts in the late '50's...now that's truely amazing...

[BoxBuzz]

I beleive in staying current....got a late start on fatherhood. My little girl will be 5 in sept. I''m just now old enough to be able to be a good dad wouldnt have qualified in my younger days I'm sure. I'ts a wonderful life.



Just got me a sheherd mix puppy today and named him Braddock. My old lab/setter mix passed away after 14 years and his name was Smokin' we often called him Smokey. Sure do miss him but Braddock is looking very promising.

[Jaclem]

..big screen fights were fun and exciting..with the crowd reacting just as if we were there at the real event itself. i think maybe $5.00 was admission price...but could have been as low as $3.50. until much much later the picture was in black and white and not always as as the broadcasts are today. when i saw charles/marciano 1 in the top row of a large theatre i was cheering so loud..along with the others..along with giving ezzard advice..that i was hoarse after the fight.

[Sweet Scientist]

..big screen fights were fun and exciting..with the crowd reacting just as if we were there at the real event itself. i think maybe $5.00 was admission price...but could have been as low as $3.50. until much much later the picture was in black and white and not always as as the broadcasts are today. when i saw charles/marciano 1 in the top row of a large theatre i was cheering so loud..along with the others..along with giving ezzard advice..that i was hoarse after the fight.

I know the feeling...saw Ali-Frazier I at a pretty well packed large sports arena (for $20.00) four giant screens...everybody there was yelling and screaming, just like a live fight...unfortunately, my yelling and screaming kind of subsided after Ali caught that hook on the ropes in the 11th...kind of went numb in the 15th :( :( :(

[BoxBuzz]

Jaclem yep I sure remember the black and white days, there is something about boxing and black and white film that just works. Oh and by the way I was taken to these fights as early 8 years old by my military dad who was an enthusiast. Another explanation of those 50's experiences. I was going on my own by age 15 mid 60's. Archie was one of the first fighters I was exposed to. His loss to Ali was a difficult one for me sort of like the Tszyu Hatton fight I was ambivilent.

SS I know exactly what you went through, I sort of consoled myself with the "aftermath". I think it's where I first got the idea that the "real" winner of a fight could be considered to be the guy who had the least problems after the fight.

Frazier sort of checked into a hospital and lived there a while while Ali was out doing a lot of promoting and conversations and "monday morning quarterbacking" The one thing that was clear to me was that Ali delivered a greater beating to his opponent that did Frazier to his and that was a victory in and of itself. Though Frazier did win the fight on points even in my mind.

One guy won the boxing match the other guy won the "fight"

It's one of the reasons I always ask myself as the last round ends who would I rather be right now? Which in the Hopkins Taylor fight I thought I'd rather be Hopkins. So Hopkins won at least one of the battles that night as did Ali with Frazier the first time around.

[BoxBuzz]

here's another relevant conversation. lol.

[Ezzard]

I went to see Hagler-Leonard on the big screen. Wasn't shown live on UK TV.

The crowd were going wild. And there were a lot of drunken guys around. Seemed like Leonard won 11 of the 12 rounds. Everyone was so caught up in it. I watched it the next day on TV and realised it was a much closer affair.

[misterpunch]

I think buzz is wrong about the FOTC - frazier won the fight (on points) AND he won the after fight. he was pretty beat up, that's true, but he was prepared to get beat up and go through more pain than ali in order to win. this he did. what was even more revealing was that ali couldn't accept it. it gnawed at him incessantly that joe had beaten him fair and square. so he upped the insults about joe - he increased the hostility - until joe agreed to the rematch. had joe ignored the insults and the money offered - where would Ali's legacy have gone? and joe was never as good again.

I love both guys but joe was proved the better man in the first fight. it should have stayed that way.

I sorry for not going with the thread but archie had no reason to feel hard done by. he delivered a great shot that should have won him the fight, but Marciano was a very strong fellow and you can imagine archie's mentality when the rock rose at the count of 4. perhaps if archie was less of a thinker/psychologist and not let the fact of the knockdown get to him he may have whacked in another one just as good as the first and rocky might not have risen the second time.

these are the great questions that are worth pondering - and boxing is the greatest sports forum for those that like to get inside the human mind and work it all out

[BoxBuzz]

I do agree that Frazier won the boxing match. I cant' score the fight for Ali.....can't make that case.


But "spin" in another direction? A little fancy feedback, and the ol' obfuscation? Yep, I'm happy to take that on.

[tiny_acres]

I do agree that Frazier won the boxing match. I cant' score the fight for Ali.....can't make that case.


But "spin" in another direction? A little fancy feedback, and the ol' obfuscation? Yep, I'm happy to take that on.

Obfuscation (or beclouding) is the hiding of intended meaning in communication, making communication confusing, willfully ambiguous, and harder to interpret. [citation needed] The word comes from Latin obfuscatio, from obfuscāre ("to darken"), from ob ("over") and fuscāre ("to make dark"), from fuscus ("dark").

Learned a new word today.Now how the hell am I going to use this in everyday converation

[L.A. kidd]

I saw liston-patterson 2 in a theatre in 1963, in Anaheim, calif. 11.50 a ticket, that was the time I met mickey davies,
nice guy. wasn't a very good atmosphere after liston koed him again in the 1st, we didn't get our money's worth.

never watched Patterson again. he never fought anybody when he was champ, big fraud.

[tiny_acres]

I saw liston-patterson 2 in a theatre in 1963, in Anaheim, calif. 11.50 a ticket, that was the time I met mickey davies,
nice guy. wasn't a very good atmosphere after liston koed him again in the 1st, we didn't get our money's worth.

never watched Patterson again. he never fought anybody when he was champ, big fraud.

Wow!!! 11.50 per ticket in 1963.You must have been mad paying that much for that outcome.

[Crease]

In Archie Moores book `ABC` he mentions that Marciano had vaseline on his face which Archie complained to the referee about before the fight started.

That's just Archie for you, he always found something to complain about, and even if he didn't - he would just make something up.

In his retirement days, Archie repeatedly insisted that he was robbed from being "the man who beat Marciano" and often declared that he had "hurt Marciano" and pointed out his knockdown of Rocky...
He constantly accused the referee, Harry Kessler as the man who robbed him by "spending an age wiping Marciano's gloves" following the knockdown.

Of course, it's a fiction. If you ever take the time to watch the fight you'll see that the ref spent a second looking in to Rocky's eyes and asking him if he wanted to continue. It was just standard procedure...
But Moore insisted that that Kessler had protected Rocky by giving him an excessive time period to recover.

The sports journalist, Colin Hart often perpetuates this myth alongside he "great fighter" that was Nino Valdes and Rocy's apparent "ducking".

He speaks of it in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cX6dMenAtY