Bleeders

tagjohnson · Post by **tagjohnson** » 28 Jul 2005, 17:18

Who do you guys think are the all-time great bleeders? The guys that you just looked at and they started bleeding. The good fighters that might have gone a lot farther if they hadn't been so cut prone.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 28 Jul 2005, 17:43

Chuck Wepner bled a lot...218 stitches against Sonny Liston in '70 (that's got to be some kind of record?)...don't think he would have 'gone a lot farther' regardless...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 28 Jul 2005, 18:04

Walter MCgowan, Henry Cooper.... Ray mancini... Arturo Gatti...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 28 Jul 2005, 20:20

Wouldnt Carmen Basilio fit nicely into this catagory?

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 28 Jul 2005, 21:23

Remember O'Grady against the Japanese fighter Fukutama?

dws · Post by **dws** » 29 Jul 2005, 01:07

I liked O'Grady but wasn't that the fight where he was bleeding like a stuck pig but they wouldn't stop it then the Japanese guy(I'm not even gonna try to spell his name)either got a small cut or got hurt a little and they stopped it immediately?

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 29 Jul 2005, 02:33

Yes, he bled so much I wondered how much of the stuff comes stock in a human, but he put a beating on Shigeo. I watched this and the Kenty tapes not long ago and he pounded that poor guy, and i think the Japanese fighter was bleeding from the ears when he finally fell in the fifth.

Richie Aprille rules · Post by **Richie Aprille rules** » 29 Jul 2005, 03:53

Vito Antuofermo

ShoeShine · Post by **ShoeShine** » 29 Jul 2005, 09:11

Sweet Scientist wrote:Chuck Wepner bled a lot...218 stitches against Sonny Liston in '70 (that's got to be some kind of record?)...don't think he would have 'gone a lot farther' regardless...

damn what the hell did liston hit him with to give him 218 stitches??? a bat????

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 29 Jul 2005, 09:58

ShoeShine wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:Chuck Wepner bled a lot...218 stitches against Sonny Liston in '70 (that's got to be some kind of record?)...don't think he would have 'gone a lot farther' regardless...
damn what the hell did liston hit him with to give him 218 stitches??? a bat????

I think he broke his nose, jaw, cheek and a couple of ribs too. "Basically everytime he hit me he broke something"-Wepner.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Jul 2005, 10:43

Richie Aprille rules wrote:Vito Antuofermo

Vito should have been nicknamed 'The Blood Donor' for the amount of claret he spilt during his career!. Good fighter though!...

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 29 Jul 2005, 11:18

ShoeShine wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:Chuck Wepner bled a lot...218 stitches against Sonny Liston in '70 (that's got to be some kind of record?)...don't think he would have 'gone a lot farther' regardless...
damn what the hell did liston hit him with to give him 218 stitches??? a bat????

Just couldn't miss him, particularly with that renowned jab. He'd double it up, use it as a counter, whatever, just couldn't miss!

Wepner's face was a mask of claret by the end of it.

Come to think of it... Liston's boxing ability was pretty amazing in that fight - considering his age, and that he had not long suffered one of the all time brutal knockouts.

He slipped and ducked and weaved like a 20 something.

Actually... the way the first Clay 'defeat' tainted Liston's image - painting him as a slow and one dimensional limited brawler - is one of the biggest disgraces in modern boxing history.

When I think back to some of the footage I've seen of Liston in training camp... this was maybe one of the most limber heavyweight athletes I've ever seen.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Jul 2005, 11:26

Manos de Oro wrote:
ShoeShine wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:Chuck Wepner bled a lot...218 stitches against Sonny Liston in '70 (that's got to be some kind of record?)...don't think he would have 'gone a lot farther' regardless...
damn what the hell did liston hit him with to give him 218 stitches??? a bat????
Just couldn't miss him, particularly with that renowned jab. He'd double it up, use it as a counter, whatever, just couldn't miss!

Wepner's face was a mask of claret by the end of it.

Come to think of it... Liston's boxing ability was pretty amazing in that fight - considering his age, and that he had not long suffered one of the all time brutal knockouts.

He slipped and ducked and weaved like a 20 something.

Actually... the way the first Clay 'defeat' tainted Liston's image - painting him as a slow and one dimensional limited brawler - is one of the biggest disgraces in modern boxing history.

When I think back to some of the footage I've seen of Liston in training camp... this was maybe one of the most limber heavyweight athletes I've ever seen.

People usually have this perception of Liston as a slow lumbering heavy but he was actually pretty quick for a big guy, especially handwise... its just that Ali was so fast in comparison he made Sonny look slow.
Sonny seldom gets the credit for being a great fighter technically as well as power wise... he had one of the best jabs I've seen!......

tagjohnson · Post by **tagjohnson** » 29 Jul 2005, 11:33

Looks like we got a good debate going. Cool. My own particular favorite that hasn't been mentioned was Jerry Quarry. He wasn't going to beat Ali or Frazier but cuts defintely cost him in first fights with both of them and sent him into his first (and should have been last) retirement against Ken Norton. BTW although it doesn't compare (what could?) to the beating Chuck Wepner took against Sonny Liston, I believe Mustafo Hamsho received a 163 stiches after his first fight with Marvin Hagler. Honorable mention has to go Alan Minter who I believe suffered at least his first 8 losses due to cuts.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 29 Jul 2005, 16:33

ShoeShine wrote:
Sweet Scientist wrote:Chuck Wepner bled a lot...218 stitches against Sonny Liston in '70 (that's got to be some kind of record?)...don't think he would have 'gone a lot farther' regardless...
damn what the hell did liston hit him with to give him 218 stitches??? a bat????

I saw an excerpt from a Wepner interview years after the fight that was quite entertaining...Wepner could laugh about it by then...he said he actually felt and heard bones break in his face every time Liston landed and that's where I heard the number 218 (stitches)...and Liston was at least 43 years old at the time...sadly, he would die just a few months later...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Jul 2005, 17:13

Well they called Wepner the "bayone bleeder" Cooper was his english countepart for sure.

Some of the fighters named in this thread have one or two examples of fights where they were cut dramatically. But Wepner,Cooper and Basilio seem to just go in bleeding from the bell. Probably cut themselves in training just to "toughen up".

Nowadays it seems there are just less examples because of the excellent cut men's work and great coagulants being used. Used to be the cornermen would just tell their man to stop that bleeding and get in there and fight.

There are some outstanding cutmen, it's an occupation I would love to be involved in myself except for the fact you just may have to answer to your client if you happen to turn in a bad day's work. Not sure I'd want to be the one explaining to Vitali or Vlad that I did my best I just couldnt quite get the bleeding under control. From what I understand the other brother always steps up and takes care of business on that score.

And now for one of my more pertinet tangents.

A thread should be created with the heading "won the fight but lost the war" because this thread reminds me of one of the all time great examples of that.

Sonny Liston is his fight with Leotis Martin suffered a god awful knockout
however...Liston took Martin's eye with him on the way to the deck. As mentioned earlier Leotis suffered a detached retina. He was then forced to retire.

So after the fight is over who would you really have rather been? A question that is always a great "after the fight" argument starter.

There have to be many examples of this. Should someone start a thread on that or has that been worn thin recently? Hopkins Taylor is another example I can think of though not all that dramatic.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 29 Jul 2005, 17:24

BoxBuzz wrote: A thread should be created with the heading "won the fight but lost the war" because this thread reminds me of one of the all time great examples of that.

...so...what's stopping you?...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 29 Jul 2005, 17:40

I think I would rather have been Martin as Liston was dead just a few months later. Martin died in the mid-90s didn't he?.......

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 29 Jul 2005, 18:31

Hey science guy....Starting my own thread is too much excitement at my age. Pureeing my food is about all the excitement I can handle these days.

Silkov.....Yeah death is a bitch. But actually over a year passed after the Martin fight and Liston came back and beat the Chucky doll half to death before he left the building. So his death was not part or parcel to the Martin Match. But I got ya on the "I'd rather be alive" spin. Beats the hell out of the alternative as far as I know.

Don't make me get out another can of smart ass replies on you two.

Richie Aprille rules · Post by **Richie Aprille rules** » 30 Jul 2005, 04:44

silkov wrote:
Richie Aprille rules wrote:Vito Antuofermo
Vito should have been nicknamed 'The Blood Donor' for the amount of claret he spilt during his career!. Good fighter though!...

And an actor also! (two chapters of The Sopranos)

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 30 Jul 2005, 12:49

Richie Aprille rules wrote:
silkov wrote:
Richie Aprille rules wrote:Vito Antuofermo
Vito should have been nicknamed 'The Blood Donor' for the amount of claret he spilt during his career!. Good fighter though!...
And an actor also! (two chapters of The Sopranos)

He has been in a few films as well.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0031610/

I bet he shudders when the director shout "CUT".

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 01 Aug 2005, 16:25

I believe 7 out of 9 of Alan Minter's losses were cut stoppages. Had he not been so prone to cuts he surely would have rated alot higher among all time Middleweights. Despite his tendency to cut he still had a pretty solid chin. Wasen't Tony Sibson the only fighter to floor him as a pro ?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Aug 2005, 21:56

hey everyone im back!!! had a tough tournament.

anyways, henry cooper is defintely up there with bleeders. im suprised marcianos name hasnt been mentioned. he bled many times during his career and almost lost his title to charles because his nose was split open. he suffered many bad cuts and bled a lot.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » 03 Aug 2005, 04:11

Bobby Czyz was another bleeder,

didn't Hagler floor Minter.

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 04 Aug 2005, 10:16

Sweet Scientist wrote:Chuck Wepner bled a lot...218 stitches against Sonny Liston in '70 (that's got to be some kind of record?)...don't think he would have 'gone a lot farther' regardless...

Are you certain about this? I recently watched a documentary on Sonny Liston and I'm sure Wepner said that he needed 72 stitches after his fight with Sonny, not 218.
He said something like "I was an intimidator until I met Liston. He hit me so hard, everywhere he hit, he broke something, nose, jaw, cheekbone, ribs and gave me 72 stitches."
I'll try to dig up the tape to confirm.

-KOKid-

Bleeders

Bleeders

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